Some of the most successful and most complicated products are written in languages that are the target of the attitude mentioned in this article.
Take some complicated applications such as Google Chrome is written in C++, IntelliJ is Java and Facebook is originally PHP. I am impressed by what each of them accomplished.
I am impressed and respect the products, developers, people and accomplishments of the languages that receive this ugly unloving attitude. They ship LOTS of things and people do use them. I think this counts for a lot.
As I said in a different thread, in reply to people criticizing languages: "I trust the people actually building stuff. They are the hardest people to fool."
I was with them right up until not criticizing Windows. Criticize the hell out of Windows, it’s the “default”of most of the world yet absolutely fundamentally flawed, and held together with duct tape. We’re building skyscrapers on swampland, it’s a literal danger to life and limb.
Don’t criticize the users, that’s needlessly rude. But Windows needs to be criticized.
A single example, its lack of an executable permission, hiding file extensions, and running things based on file extension is at its core the cause of 95% of the worlds problems. They could easily fix so much just by showing extensions.
> They could easily fix so much just by showing extensions.
A couple of years ago I troubleshot a problem someone was having on a Mac. IIRC, instead of creating a file with an extension they had somehow managed to create a folder with an extension, with the actual file inside of that folder.
Also IIRC, they tried to click into the folder, but apparently Mac had hid the file extension (of the folder!) which prevented them from entering the folder (since the name without the extension was not the full name of the folder??). This only became apparent when dropping into the shell and doing a list. From there it was easy to change directory into the full name of the directory.
NTFS supports executable permissions for users, groups, and all other types of ACL you can manage. It's just enabled by default if you have read access.
That said, in 99% of cases the Mark of the Web will do the same thing the executable bit will do on other platforms. You'll have to store an executable on a fat32 drive for it to be executable without a "your computer is in terrible danger" prompt.
How is an executable permission more secure than a hidden .exe extension that also enables it to be executed by "opening" it, and is also hard to see by default?
Dan, could you please put years on your submission titles when they're not from the current year? You've been doing a lot of old submissions without the year appended.
While I agree with most of the article, I have some reservations though:
> I’m tired of people dumping on Windows, that most popular operating system, because it’s not what we choose to use . . .
Criticism can be constructive and the network effects of platforms are real. There is an appropriate time and place for these things. For languages which are almost entirely open source at this point the choice isn’t so important. For things like closed source (and deeply flawed) operating systems we should find healthy ways to advocate against them (not the people who use them). Don’t be a contemptuous nerd shaking your fist at the wind, but don’t miss opportunities that could actually make a difference.
If someone says, "I'm tired of dealing with X in Y," or, "I can't figure out how to do A in B," it may be appropriate to say Z or C will help. As for outright advocacy, it is poison. In the best case, it's adding a lot of noise for people who are trying to make a decision. In the worse case, it's forcing people in the other direction. There's a lot of reasons why it may be forcing people in the other direction. The article's author mentions exclusionary language/tone. In other cases advocacy diminishes the credibility of the message (e.g. they distort how good their choice is or how bad the alternative is). Plus, some people simply don't want to be associated with that type of culture.
You see this everywhere, but it's usually only with people who do not have much experience. Not just with languages either. I remember my team looking incredulously at a new hire who was, (hopefully anyway?), trying to show us all how smart he was by telling us Bellman-Ford was better than Dijkstra.
Um. OK. But who cares? Our job is to ship product. We'll throw it at the GPU and move on with our lives. Thanks though? I think?
If I was looking at a company that purported to be making an online game streaming service and they were using Ruby or Swift, I'd very likely look elsewhere for employment. If they were using Java, Rust, or C++, well, that would make more sense.
There are just some realities out there about which languages to use for what, and if a company you are looking at seems to be operating way outside those realities? I mean you have to think long and hard about working with them.
Same with employees by the way. If someone comes in and tries to get my teams to work on a Rust based inferencing service to host our models because "It won't take more than 6 months." Again, you have to question that person's judgement. We're supposed to spend 6 months, (read 18 months because it always takes 3x what they say), creating a Rust based service? A service that even my junior AI guys can push out by the end of the week in Python or Java? No thanks. HR, please prepare his/her separation notice.
I don't run a "who has the biggest balls/breasts" contest. I run a tech firm. Fanboyism has no place in cold dispassionate decision making.
> Other self-taught narratives, such as starting with Wordpress-based design backgrounds and moving from more simple themes to more complex themes where PHP knowledge is required, to plugin development is a completely valid narrative, but a path that is predominately for women.
Despite all the introspective self-flagellation, I'd say the author still has a ways to go if they believe that any path or another is, "predominantly for women."
Go easy Dan. You're assuming that people who have a job to do, in whatever way they achieve that, care greatly about what others think. One just does the job with the tools at hand, and with the skills at hand, and move on. It's a job, not a competition in aesthetics. If it works, it works. Most people will defend their work, and not their choices, because often the choices weren't theirs in the first place.
This is a very good essay. I don’t understand the assertion about the “this is a path predominantly used by women”, if that led to the necessary epiphany, great.
I remember being impressed the people who were good at snark: clever sarcastic quips that were funny with a germ of truth in them. I was sorry I wasn’t so quick on my feet (tongue) but participated.
And then somehow, one day, I realized that yes, people liked the humor, but often weren’t close to those folks, because maybe the quips could be aimed at them. And luckily that happened when I was young enough to drop it. There are other ways to be smart.
Anecdotally, I experienced the same thing the author mentioned: Specially Python developer's disdain for Java. At more than one local Python meetup there were numerous jabs thrown at Java, or jokes made at its expense, with the implication that Java was inferior to Python.
FWIW, I never experienced the inverse when talking to Java developers.
I'm sort of glad I didn't have an internet connection at home until I was 17, because I only got any contact with the attitude criticized in the post when I was already largely past teenage angst.
My experience is that gatekeepers often exaggerate the difficulty and importance of whatever it is that they're gatekeeping, be it languages, language paradigms or even architectures.
It's useful to call them out on this in particular when you're knowledgeable yourself.
My favourite example of this is people dismissing a language because its type system is unsound. The vast majority of people who brought this up in front of me couldn't explain how that prevents anyone from shipping products.
There are some good points in this article, but the idea that there is a contempt "currency" seems odd. Are there really communities in computing in which your status is bolstered by expressions of contempt, rather than some real achievement and demonstration of competence?
You just don't see this in circles where people have ability. Expressions of contempt may show up there, but they are not the basis for anyone's status.
I would be surprised if this has changed since 2001. I think it speaks more to the changes in attitude/perspective of the author, and the communities they choose to participate in—and less about the world. Also, PHP and Java have both improved greatly since 2001...
Finally, I should note that I would be far less motivated to join a company where I’d have to spend my time writing Java or PHP that one working with Ruby or Swift, for instance. We’re still allowed to have opinions about languages. It’s just childish to demean others for theirs.
Meh. I wouldn’t recommend anyone be arrogant and contemptuous about tech choices. That’s obviously counterproductive and often juvenile.
But helpful? Hell yes—we have an abundance of FLOSS riches today. And fact is, some packages are better designed than others. Trying to encourage use of the higher quality ones to minimize headaches is a good thing.
You should have lived when COBOL was king, this has been around for a long time and will be around for much longer. Not to mention the classic Emacs vs vi, really just the same thing.
since this is an important premise, apparently the turning point of her "PHP sucks" phase, why no link to evidence?
also:
> I’m tired of calling people out again and again
> Instead, we lecture and dismiss and heap scorn upon them.
is "calling out" different from lecturing?
and:
> to the vile reactionary attitudes towards the introduction of Codes of Conduct
Not at all the same thing. The history of CoCs tells the tale, no cheap dismissal based on your own bad behaviour needed.
In fact, saying "I used to be a bad person, but I'm enlightened now, and assume everyone with similar opinions to the ones I used to hold are bad people like I used to be" is a little smug and/or narcissistic.
Cool, you feel you grew as a person - keep that as a lesson for yourself, not a lecture for everyone else, otherwise you are still projecting your opinions on others, and weaponizing your former faults:
> Because we were the problematic elements.
> We excluded people. Directly. All of us.
Doesn't sound like owning up to personal behaviour.. Maybe speak for yourself.
> since this is an important premise, apparently the turning point of her "PHP sucks" phase, why no link to evidence?
I didn't figure it out til this comment thread but I think it is based on a (stereotyped?) picture of male hackers arriving through the traditional male-heavy STEM education, CS major or whatever, and the "sophisticate" culture that goes with that. Female hackers in that picture are (were?) more likely to have arrived through writing, web design, then doing some scripting here and there before finding their way into backend development, so PHP will be all they have seen at the relevant moment. At least that seemed like what was being conveyed.
The essay as a whole wasn't that impressive. C (one of the more testosterone-soaked languages FWIW) really does suck, people who use it without knowing better don't deserve contempt, but it is worthwhile to provide some gentle enlightenment if you're in a position to do so.
These days PHP has improved, Javascript has eaten the scripting world, and C is mostly relegated to legacy and embedded niches. But we really do live in a bunch of overlapping messed up programming cultures and we should always try to widen our horizons without blaming the victims. The "blub paradox" ironically both explains the culture problem, and is an example of it (it fails to recognize that Lisp is also a blub).
I'm a minority (Spaniard, at an American company). I also I used to use PHP. I can 100% say that I'm glad people made fun of it because it influenced me to try other things and I was much, much better off for it. PHP was an objectively bad language (at least when I was using it, I hear it might be better now).
Mockery is a very effective signalling mechanism and censoring it to comply with US corporate correctness seems a bit overbearing, to be honest.
[+] [-] samsquire|2 years ago|reply
Take some complicated applications such as Google Chrome is written in C++, IntelliJ is Java and Facebook is originally PHP. I am impressed by what each of them accomplished.
I am impressed and respect the products, developers, people and accomplishments of the languages that receive this ugly unloving attitude. They ship LOTS of things and people do use them. I think this counts for a lot.
[+] [-] AnimalMuppet|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Chris2048|2 years ago|reply
Also, as a user of intelliJ, I would prefer it be written in C++. It's dog-slow.
> Facebook is originally PHP
I doubt it's success was based on its tech, but the fact it was rewritten tells a tale in itself, no?
[+] [-] kazinator|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] donatj|2 years ago|reply
Don’t criticize the users, that’s needlessly rude. But Windows needs to be criticized.
A single example, its lack of an executable permission, hiding file extensions, and running things based on file extension is at its core the cause of 95% of the worlds problems. They could easily fix so much just by showing extensions.
[+] [-] unglaublich|2 years ago|reply
Don't criticize people, criticize concepts.
[+] [-] anonymouskimmer|2 years ago|reply
A couple of years ago I troubleshot a problem someone was having on a Mac. IIRC, instead of creating a file with an extension they had somehow managed to create a folder with an extension, with the actual file inside of that folder.
Also IIRC, they tried to click into the folder, but apparently Mac had hid the file extension (of the folder!) which prevented them from entering the folder (since the name without the extension was not the full name of the folder??). This only became apparent when dropping into the shell and doing a list. From there it was easy to change directory into the full name of the directory.
I have no clue what was happening here.
[+] [-] jeroenhd|2 years ago|reply
NTFS supports executable permissions for users, groups, and all other types of ACL you can manage. It's just enabled by default if you have read access.
That said, in 99% of cases the Mark of the Web will do the same thing the executable bit will do on other platforms. You'll have to store an executable on a fat32 drive for it to be executable without a "your computer is in terrible danger" prompt.
[+] [-] Chris2048|2 years ago|reply
Don't go after people for using it, it might not be their choice. But do push back on apologists and promoters.
[+] [-] sacrosancty|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SideburnsOfDoom|2 years ago|reply
As is "the vanity of small differences". Viewed from a distance, "people who write software" are all of much the same group.
I try not to do it. I prefer Scott Hanselmans's take (2)
"Learn any programming language. ... pick a programming language, learn it, see if it feeds your spirit. If you don't like it, pick a different one.
* Ignore people who say that this language sucks or that language sucks* "
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzhQIpT7S50
[+] [-] lapcat|2 years ago|reply
Dan, could you please put years on your submission titles when they're not from the current year? You've been doing a lot of old submissions without the year appended.
[+] [-] gjvc|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] davemp|2 years ago|reply
> I’m tired of people dumping on Windows, that most popular operating system, because it’s not what we choose to use . . .
Criticism can be constructive and the network effects of platforms are real. There is an appropriate time and place for these things. For languages which are almost entirely open source at this point the choice isn’t so important. For things like closed source (and deeply flawed) operating systems we should find healthy ways to advocate against them (not the people who use them). Don’t be a contemptuous nerd shaking your fist at the wind, but don’t miss opportunities that could actually make a difference.
[+] [-] II2II|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bilbo0s|2 years ago|reply
Um. OK. But who cares? Our job is to ship product. We'll throw it at the GPU and move on with our lives. Thanks though? I think?
If I was looking at a company that purported to be making an online game streaming service and they were using Ruby or Swift, I'd very likely look elsewhere for employment. If they were using Java, Rust, or C++, well, that would make more sense.
There are just some realities out there about which languages to use for what, and if a company you are looking at seems to be operating way outside those realities? I mean you have to think long and hard about working with them.
Same with employees by the way. If someone comes in and tries to get my teams to work on a Rust based inferencing service to host our models because "It won't take more than 6 months." Again, you have to question that person's judgement. We're supposed to spend 6 months, (read 18 months because it always takes 3x what they say), creating a Rust based service? A service that even my junior AI guys can push out by the end of the week in Python or Java? No thanks. HR, please prepare his/her separation notice.
I don't run a "who has the biggest balls/breasts" contest. I run a tech firm. Fanboyism has no place in cold dispassionate decision making.
[+] [-] bityard|2 years ago|reply
Despite all the introspective self-flagellation, I'd say the author still has a ways to go if they believe that any path or another is, "predominantly for women."
[+] [-] detaro|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tacitusarc|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kayo_20211030|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gumby|2 years ago|reply
I remember being impressed the people who were good at snark: clever sarcastic quips that were funny with a germ of truth in them. I was sorry I wasn’t so quick on my feet (tongue) but participated.
And then somehow, one day, I realized that yes, people liked the humor, but often weren’t close to those folks, because maybe the quips could be aimed at them. And luckily that happened when I was young enough to drop it. There are other ways to be smart.
[+] [-] stygiansonic|2 years ago|reply
FWIW, I never experienced the inverse when talking to Java developers.
[+] [-] Tade0|2 years ago|reply
My experience is that gatekeepers often exaggerate the difficulty and importance of whatever it is that they're gatekeeping, be it languages, language paradigms or even architectures.
It's useful to call them out on this in particular when you're knowledgeable yourself.
My favourite example of this is people dismissing a language because its type system is unsound. The vast majority of people who brought this up in front of me couldn't explain how that prevents anyone from shipping products.
[+] [-] kazinator|2 years ago|reply
You just don't see this in circles where people have ability. Expressions of contempt may show up there, but they are not the basis for anyone's status.
[+] [-] aaronbrethorst|2 years ago|reply
Finally, I should note that I would be far less motivated to join a company where I’d have to spend my time writing Java or PHP that one working with Ruby or Swift, for instance. We’re still allowed to have opinions about languages. It’s just childish to demean others for theirs.
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|2 years ago|reply
But helpful? Hell yes—we have an abundance of FLOSS riches today. And fact is, some packages are better designed than others. Trying to encourage use of the higher quality ones to minimize headaches is a good thing.
[+] [-] mixmastamyk|2 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35663742
[+] [-] jmclnx|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Chris2048|2 years ago|reply
> but a path that is predominately for women
since this is an important premise, apparently the turning point of her "PHP sucks" phase, why no link to evidence?
also:
> I’m tired of calling people out again and again
> Instead, we lecture and dismiss and heap scorn upon them.
is "calling out" different from lecturing?
and:
> to the vile reactionary attitudes towards the introduction of Codes of Conduct
Not at all the same thing. The history of CoCs tells the tale, no cheap dismissal based on your own bad behaviour needed.
In fact, saying "I used to be a bad person, but I'm enlightened now, and assume everyone with similar opinions to the ones I used to hold are bad people like I used to be" is a little smug and/or narcissistic.
Cool, you feel you grew as a person - keep that as a lesson for yourself, not a lecture for everyone else, otherwise you are still projecting your opinions on others, and weaponizing your former faults:
> Because we were the problematic elements.
> We excluded people. Directly. All of us.
Doesn't sound like owning up to personal behaviour.. Maybe speak for yourself.
[+] [-] throwaway81523|2 years ago|reply
> since this is an important premise, apparently the turning point of her "PHP sucks" phase, why no link to evidence?
I didn't figure it out til this comment thread but I think it is based on a (stereotyped?) picture of male hackers arriving through the traditional male-heavy STEM education, CS major or whatever, and the "sophisticate" culture that goes with that. Female hackers in that picture are (were?) more likely to have arrived through writing, web design, then doing some scripting here and there before finding their way into backend development, so PHP will be all they have seen at the relevant moment. At least that seemed like what was being conveyed.
The essay as a whole wasn't that impressive. C (one of the more testosterone-soaked languages FWIW) really does suck, people who use it without knowing better don't deserve contempt, but it is worthwhile to provide some gentle enlightenment if you're in a position to do so.
These days PHP has improved, Javascript has eaten the scripting world, and C is mostly relegated to legacy and embedded niches. But we really do live in a bunch of overlapping messed up programming cultures and we should always try to widen our horizons without blaming the victims. The "blub paradox" ironically both explains the culture problem, and is an example of it (it fails to recognize that Lisp is also a blub).
[+] [-] draw_down|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] IntFloatNil|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] dandellion|2 years ago|reply
Mockery is a very effective signalling mechanism and censoring it to comply with US corporate correctness seems a bit overbearing, to be honest.