Something similar: Fennel (https://fennel-lang.org/) is a lisp that compiles into Lua, which neovim can use as plugins, so you can write neovim plugins in a lisp. Aniseed (https://github.com/Olical/aniseed) makes this really easy.
Aniseed is also used by Conjure (Interactive development environment for neovim, used for evaluating Fennel code inside of neovim), which is also made by the same author. Really great plugin for doing Clojure development with neovim. https://github.com/Olical/conjure
I've said this before but I think fennel is one of the most impressive languages around. Lua has a good reputation but I've used it professionally and find it one of the more practically painful languages to work in. Apparently fennel's author agrees, because fennel is laser-focused on correcting exactly its worst problems.
AND/BUT one of fennel's impressive things is that it sticks rigidly to lua runtime semantics. Which I found a little repulsive at first but has huge benefits in its context. You can drop fennel into any version of lua on any runtime (bc they vary a lot) and it works the same. You can hook the single-file fnl compiler into lua's module loader and mix fennel files into an existing lua program, freely sharing functions and metatables both ways.
Very flexible and powerful because of that tradeoff. Anywhere I have to use lua now I am actually using fennel.
The downside is this choice precludes it from having the clojure-like data structures and reference types. It could add a new standard library but doesn't, limiting itself to a handful of special forms (notably pattern match thank god) that mix nicely with the existing lua primitives. It looks like TimL has gone the other way with that decision, which I also appreciate. Makes it maybe a less flexible general-purpose lua replacement/extension, but probably makes it more powerfully suited for the specific purpose it'll be used for.
I use Aniseed, but it's worth noting that it's something like a "framework" on top of Fennel and Neovim. So I also want to shout out Hotpot, which is more of a simple plugin that allows you to put plain Fennel files in your runtime path, without any additional "framework" to learn.
That said, I think the framework that Aniseed introduces is really nice, and I think would be useful for writing general purpose programs outside of Neovim.
I'll second Conjure. I use it for (Gerbil) Scheme, and it makes it so much better. I really wish there was better support for non-Emacs editors in the Lisp ecosystem. Or really just a stronger Lisp ecosystem...
For maximum effect, read the following in Tim’s distinctive voice:
“Is this a joke?
If you mean the 6,000 lines of working code, then no, I poured hundreds upon hundreds of very serious hours into that. But if you're referring to the fact it's woefully underdocumented, adds considerable overhead to an already slow host platform, and ultimately unlikely to gain any traction, then yeah, probably.”
There's quite a good chance that even the most complicated Neovim setup is faster than Emacs. Emacs lisp is notoriously slow, while Neovim uses LuaJIT, which is _very_ fast.
Is there anything like this on the works for Vimscript 9?
Tangentially related: asking around in fora and in person, I was surprised to see that many plugin writers have had very good experience with the new Vimscript, and even prefer it to the more general purpose Lua (I was expecting the opposite). I myself have not used any Vimscript, but I am tempted to take a look at the new language.
How difficult is it to write an "Emacs Lisp" interpreter in a foreign framwork like neovim? Wouldn't this basically convert any IDE into Emacs if the user wants it?
I mean, I know elisp is not the most efficient of Lisp compilers but doing so for a new IDE opens the door for all available codes and plugins people have written for emacs throughout the years.
I think a huge compatibility layer would also needs to be part of that. Most IDEs probably use a completely different vocabulary and set of concepts than Emacs, starting with buffers and mode lines and minibuffers and modes.
> Wouldn't this basically convert any IDE into Emacs if the user wants it?
Emacs Lisp is only part of the equation. You need the all of the programmability that implements 90% of Emacs in Lisp (all of the standard library functions, the display engine, etc).
Emacs lisp is a terrible lisp dialect. If it wasn't for Emacs' popularity it would have died decades ago. This is just one example in a long line of examples where nobody willingly implements Emacs lisp. Even in Emacs there is pressure to move towards Common Lisp.
Emacs lisp has, as far as I can tell, no advantages. It isn't especially good at text editing. It introduces differences from more popular lisp dialects. Anything it offers could be a library in some other lisp.
Clojure on the other hand, has a couple of nice syntax innovations and smooth default data structures.
Clojure is a language created and "controlled" by a single author (pretty unified overall) as a general purpose language, with implementations for multiple languages.
Emacs Lisp (elisp) is a language specifically created as a scripting language for an editor, maintained by an organization, with one compiler (AFAIK) and 99% of usage is within Emacs.
It's not hard to imagine people preferring Clojure before elisp, especially outside of Emacs.
Some people like Clojure syntax rather than S-expressions. Personally I don't get it, having arbitrary lists that require square instead of round brackets, arbitrary lists where pairs which belong together aren't grouped, and arbitrary lists where commas are interpreted as optional whitespace gives me a headache; but to each his own.
Start a repl with :TLrepl. Tab complete is your friend. The first time may take several seconds (if your computer is a piece of shit), but compilation is cached, so subsequent invocations will be super quick, even if Vim is restarted.
capableweb|2 years ago
Aniseed is also used by Conjure (Interactive development environment for neovim, used for evaluating Fennel code inside of neovim), which is also made by the same author. Really great plugin for doing Clojure development with neovim. https://github.com/Olical/conjure
giraffe_lady|2 years ago
AND/BUT one of fennel's impressive things is that it sticks rigidly to lua runtime semantics. Which I found a little repulsive at first but has huge benefits in its context. You can drop fennel into any version of lua on any runtime (bc they vary a lot) and it works the same. You can hook the single-file fnl compiler into lua's module loader and mix fennel files into an existing lua program, freely sharing functions and metatables both ways.
Very flexible and powerful because of that tradeoff. Anywhere I have to use lua now I am actually using fennel.
The downside is this choice precludes it from having the clojure-like data structures and reference types. It could add a new standard library but doesn't, limiting itself to a handful of special forms (notably pattern match thank god) that mix nicely with the existing lua primitives. It looks like TimL has gone the other way with that decision, which I also appreciate. Makes it maybe a less flexible general-purpose lua replacement/extension, but probably makes it more powerfully suited for the specific purpose it'll be used for.
nerdponx|2 years ago
That said, I think the framework that Aniseed introduces is really nice, and I think would be useful for writing general purpose programs outside of Neovim.
packetlost|2 years ago
obiefernandez|2 years ago
“Is this a joke?
If you mean the 6,000 lines of working code, then no, I poured hundreds upon hundreds of very serious hours into that. But if you're referring to the fact it's woefully underdocumented, adds considerable overhead to an already slow host platform, and ultimately unlikely to gain any traction, then yeah, probably.”
EuAndreh|2 years ago
AlchemistCamp|2 years ago
maleldil|2 years ago
There's quite a good chance that even the most complicated Neovim setup is faster than Emacs. Emacs lisp is notoriously slow, while Neovim uses LuaJIT, which is _very_ fast.
avbanks|2 years ago
imran-iq|2 years ago
> Master Pope once dreamt he was an Emacs user. When he awoke, he exclaimed:
> “I do not know if I am Tim Pope dreaming I am an Emacs user, or an Emacs user dreaming I am Tim Pope!”
---
0: https://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/vim-koans/
ykonstant|2 years ago
Tangentially related: asking around in fora and in person, I was surprised to see that many plugin writers have had very good experience with the new Vimscript, and even prefer it to the more general purpose Lua (I was expecting the opposite). I myself have not used any Vimscript, but I am tempted to take a look at the new language.
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
omoikane|2 years ago
https://github.com/shinh/elvm
abeyer|2 years ago
ducktective|2 years ago
I mean, I know elisp is not the most efficient of Lisp compilers but doing so for a new IDE opens the door for all available codes and plugins people have written for emacs throughout the years.
zelphirkalt|2 years ago
hvis|2 years ago
Emacs Lisp is only part of the equation. You need the all of the programmability that implements 90% of Emacs in Lisp (all of the standard library functions, the display engine, etc).
ReleaseCandidat|2 years ago
roenxi|2 years ago
Emacs lisp has, as far as I can tell, no advantages. It isn't especially good at text editing. It introduces differences from more popular lisp dialects. Anything it offers could be a library in some other lisp.
Clojure on the other hand, has a couple of nice syntax innovations and smooth default data structures.
capableweb|2 years ago
Emacs Lisp (elisp) is a language specifically created as a scripting language for an editor, maintained by an organization, with one compiler (AFAIK) and 99% of usage is within Emacs.
It's not hard to imagine people preferring Clojure before elisp, especially outside of Emacs.
rollcat|2 years ago
We've come full circle.
tmtvl|2 years ago
jacknews|2 years ago
=> true
emmanueloga_|2 years ago
edoloughlin|2 years ago
fatheart|2 years ago
msla|2 years ago
twardowski|2 years ago
[deleted]
twardowski|2 years ago
[deleted]