Orcas are genuinely amazing creatures. We have observed evidence for culture within them, and witnessed them engage in social learning behavior identical to humans. So much so that it's important to consider their culture when we consider conservation w.r.t. orcas, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00063...
One of my favorite examples is that, in the 1980s, an orca started wearing a dead salmon on her nose. Others soon followed. They copied the pioneer until everyone was doing it. They then subsequently got bored, abandoned the trend & forgot about it.
In this case, it's very likely that someone hurt one of them and they're now trying to make the world safer for themselves. They've figured out a way to deal with the entity they see as a threat and they've spread that knowledge.
It's all very human.
I suspect that it might actually be possible to try diplomacy in this case. I may be wrong, but I suspect that they could be reasoned with. This moment in time could lead to a breakthrough in inter-species communication.
> In this case, it's very likely that someone hurt one of them and they're now trying to make the world safer for themselves.
The orcas doing this are tuna eaters, and we are depleting the tuna population. Specifically, they eat blue fin tuna migrating through the Strait of Gibraltar in the spring and summer. They're hungry and don't appreciate the overfishing. This has been escalating for a few years now. Reports of boat attacks were happening several years ago.
> It's all very human.
They have their own intelligence and culture and behavior, and it need not relate to human culture.
Although, I do suspect their raw intelligence to be approximately equal to humans.
> In this case, it's very likely that someone hurt one of them and they're now trying to make the world safer for themselves. They've figured out a way to deal with the entity they see as a threat and they've spread that knowledge.
They seems to target only sailboats' rudders, which are arguably the most innoffensive of boats out there, but also the easiest prays. What I heard is that it seems like one orca decided it was fun (who actually knows their intent) and then the fashion spread.
It seems more likely to me that some kids are having a good time messing with sailboats, than some sort of revenge or something.
> > In this case, it's very likely that someone hurt one of them and they're now trying to make the world safer for themselves. They've figured out a way to deal with the entity they see as a threat and they've spread that knowledge.
Maybe. Or maybe marine biologist Dr. Renaud de Stephanis is right and they are playing.
> “From what I’m seeing, it’s mainly two of those guys [the Gladises] in particular that are just going crazy. They just play, play and play. . . . It just seems to be something they really like and that’s it.”
> “I’ve seen them hunting,” the biologist added. “When they hunt, you don’t hear or see them. They are stealthy, they sneak up on their prey. I’ve seen them attacking sperm whales - that’s aggressive....but these guys, they are playing."
You reminded me of this absolutely adorable story of a wild dolphin named Dusty going off to find its own fashion flipper to wear, having observed a diver lose theirs:
I agree with you, they are absolutely lovely creatures, however we have to be so careful that we don't anf ... enthrop ... oh FFS ... anthropomorphize them.
Taking your dead salmon on the nose anecdote: that is fascinating but is it "culture" or a potential survival trait. I suspect that copied behaviour is in anticipation of a reward that will enhance survival. However it might be a form of embellishment, which would imply culture, as we know it.
Orcas are mammals, like us, that live in the sea (unlike us). They breathe air, which is rather scant in their environment - that means they are tied to the air/sea interface and they have to fall upwards to survive some problems they might encounter. I'll bet their at rest buoyancy is slightly less than seawater and their body shape favours turning them upright and putting their blowhole slightly out of the water.
They live in a very unforgiving environment and are also apex predators living off other creatures. They are bigger than most sharks which are at least able to always live submerged. They often end up in the Arctic and that means ice too to worry about to obscure the air/sea boundary.
No wonder they have invented some cunning behaviour.
For me the salmon thing was an epic fail, survival-wise but could be considered a form of "cargo cult". I think an example of a win is getting the pod to make a wave that washes a seal off an ice flow, so that they can pick it off.
That needs a lot more research. If nothing else we need a formal description of what "culture" actually means when we generalise across the entirety of life.
What are the tool available to interspecies negotiators - stick / carrot diplomacy? Unfortunately the risks for anyone in control of budget to find solutions to these types of problems make brute force solutions seem quite palatable. Finding a way to create orca free zones or inventing orca deterrents to scare them away from boats is the more likely course of action. Maybe there is something that can be learned from cases where rural populations in India and Africa coexist with elephants or other wildlife that is large, intelligent and potentially dangerous?
>I suspect that it might actually be possible to try diplomacy in this case
When we learn the language of Killer Whales that can be an option. However, there currently isn't a way to communicate with them in the same manner humans communicate with other humans.
What's alarming is that younger orcas are learning how to do it:
> Two days earlier, a pod of six orcas assailed another sailboat navigating the strait. Greg Blackburn, who was aboard the vessel, looked on as a mother orca appeared to teach her calf how to charge into the rudder. "It was definitely some form of education, teaching going on,"
> Experts suspect that a female orca they call White Gladis suffered a "critical moment of agony" — a collision with a boat or entrapment during illegal fishing — that flipped a behavioral switch. "That traumatized orca is the one that started this behavior of physical contact with the boat,"
Have we tried positive intervention? I know it's against marine biologists' code of ethics. But if they're intelligent enough to mount this response, they might be intelligent enough to...erm...reason with? Recondition?
Experts theorize this is a revenge behavior resulting from one of the orcas encountering traumatic event with a boat. The problem is, other orcas are emulating it.
Love all of the empathy and love for these intelligent creatures in the comments.
Sadly, humanity continues to over fish and poison their home in order to enrich the greedy of this work.
Next time some fuckwad in a suite starts ranting about pronouns and religion, picture a baby whale being dragged to it's death by a fishing vessel. Picture a fishing vessel dumping massive amounts of plastic netting into the ocean. Picture the dead coral reefs, the baked dead fields ruined by rising temperatures.
And ask yourself: Why are they talking about pronouns instead of something that actually fucking matters?
Orcas don’t eat humans, we are too bony for their taste, they also hunt in groups, and it seems we are not worth that coordination either, especially they follow their mother’s diet. So why the sudden attacks even though they know it’s for humans? No idea, but I’m sure they are either fed up with us or trying to hint something else.. or maybe as others suggested, some substance is the reason.
There's ample evidence that they eat moose and deer. (Videos of this can be graphic. There's no hunting, but video of corpses that clearly indicate predation.)
The problem is that once a whale gets run over by a ship, he/she will (somehow) tell the other whales that ships are "bad" and must be attacked. Then whales tell eachother that ships must be attacked, and this continues even after the original whale that got run over by a ship dies.
To be fair to the orcas, boats do seem to be awful for them. At the Seattle aquarium there's tons of information about how the noise from boats makes hunting much more difficult for orca pods. This was a sailing vessel but maybe they're unable to distinguish? Or maybe it was running it's motor, most sailing vessels of sufficient size have on board motors.
Recently finished reading A Whale of the Wild by Rosanne Parry[0] to my child and, like Parry's book A Wolf Called Wander, I was moved to tears. The author does a good job of trying to portray the animals as that species, not just personified as human (granted, I don't know what it's like to be an orca or a wolf, but my point is that it is important to try to empathize with other animals). It's a quick read if it was just you reading to yourself.
In the story the orcas attempt to communicate with humans and also other orcas, which the author notes in the back that this was for the sake of the story and that we observe orcas from different groups going out of their way to avoid each other and thus avoid conflict.
I'm really curious about what techniques can be used to fight back against these attacks, preferably non-lethal .. has anyone tried blasting them with sound, or maybe some other technique to get them to back off?
I mean, what about feeding them a few snacks - can they be bought off?
Seems to me a daring sailor might ought to find the answers to these questions ..
> We trousered apes are so primitive and utterly dim when it comes to interspecies communication
I know this is a common and cute framing. But it's escapist.
We're the planet's apex species using our unrivaled control to make it uninhabitable for other complex life. The Earth may not care about the damage we're doing, but the species that are dying would prefer not to. There isn't a rebellion they can mount against us. Their entire survival depends on our giving a shit.
this is the crux of the matter. as a species we’re so careless that if this is a warning or revenge for something, we don’t know what because there are too many options to choose from. this whole thread is an illustration of that. "could it be noise pollution?". "has an influential orca been hit by a rudder?”. "perhaps it's overfishing?", etc. even if it’s none of those things, and this is just a fad, it’s a sorry state of affairs
I was recently thinking about the potential failure modes of a worldwide sailing trip on a 60-80 ft vessel. Marooned by Orcas was not on the list… but it is now!
[+] [-] areoform|2 years ago|reply
One of my favorite examples is that, in the 1980s, an orca started wearing a dead salmon on her nose. Others soon followed. They copied the pioneer until everyone was doing it. They then subsequently got bored, abandoned the trend & forgot about it.
Alder or A99 rediscovered the trend in 2019 and it became cool to balance salmon on your nose again, https://www.instagram.com/p/CZkhP0fvhXn/
In this case, it's very likely that someone hurt one of them and they're now trying to make the world safer for themselves. They've figured out a way to deal with the entity they see as a threat and they've spread that knowledge.
It's all very human.
I suspect that it might actually be possible to try diplomacy in this case. I may be wrong, but I suspect that they could be reasoned with. This moment in time could lead to a breakthrough in inter-species communication.
[+] [-] bmitc|2 years ago|reply
The orcas doing this are tuna eaters, and we are depleting the tuna population. Specifically, they eat blue fin tuna migrating through the Strait of Gibraltar in the spring and summer. They're hungry and don't appreciate the overfishing. This has been escalating for a few years now. Reports of boat attacks were happening several years ago.
> It's all very human.
They have their own intelligence and culture and behavior, and it need not relate to human culture.
Although, I do suspect their raw intelligence to be approximately equal to humans.
[+] [-] AYBABTME|2 years ago|reply
They seems to target only sailboats' rudders, which are arguably the most innoffensive of boats out there, but also the easiest prays. What I heard is that it seems like one orca decided it was fun (who actually knows their intent) and then the fashion spread.
It seems more likely to me that some kids are having a good time messing with sailboats, than some sort of revenge or something.
[+] [-] bandyaboot|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonethewiser|2 years ago|reply
Maybe. Or maybe marine biologist Dr. Renaud de Stephanis is right and they are playing.
> “From what I’m seeing, it’s mainly two of those guys [the Gladises] in particular that are just going crazy. They just play, play and play. . . . It just seems to be something they really like and that’s it.”
> “I’ve seen them hunting,” the biologist added. “When they hunt, you don’t hear or see them. They are stealthy, they sneak up on their prey. I’ve seen them attacking sperm whales - that’s aggressive....but these guys, they are playing."
https://people.com/traumatized-orca-may-have-taught-whales-t...
[+] [-] boffinAudio|2 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXZYvDg1ck
Just makes me want to hang out with them so much more .. look at Dusty wearing that thing, what a player!
[+] [-] gerdesj|2 years ago|reply
Taking your dead salmon on the nose anecdote: that is fascinating but is it "culture" or a potential survival trait. I suspect that copied behaviour is in anticipation of a reward that will enhance survival. However it might be a form of embellishment, which would imply culture, as we know it.
Orcas are mammals, like us, that live in the sea (unlike us). They breathe air, which is rather scant in their environment - that means they are tied to the air/sea interface and they have to fall upwards to survive some problems they might encounter. I'll bet their at rest buoyancy is slightly less than seawater and their body shape favours turning them upright and putting their blowhole slightly out of the water.
They live in a very unforgiving environment and are also apex predators living off other creatures. They are bigger than most sharks which are at least able to always live submerged. They often end up in the Arctic and that means ice too to worry about to obscure the air/sea boundary.
No wonder they have invented some cunning behaviour.
For me the salmon thing was an epic fail, survival-wise but could be considered a form of "cargo cult". I think an example of a win is getting the pod to make a wave that washes a seal off an ice flow, so that they can pick it off.
That needs a lot more research. If nothing else we need a formal description of what "culture" actually means when we generalise across the entirety of life.
[+] [-] ben_w|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] belter|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drewmol|2 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-cultu...
[+] [-] Andy_G11|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danjoredd|2 years ago|reply
When we learn the language of Killer Whales that can be an option. However, there currently isn't a way to communicate with them in the same manner humans communicate with other humans.
[+] [-] spullara|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] belter|2 years ago|reply
"Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home" - https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek_IV:_The_Voyag...
[+] [-] helsinkiandrew|2 years ago|reply
> Two days earlier, a pod of six orcas assailed another sailboat navigating the strait. Greg Blackburn, who was aboard the vessel, looked on as a mother orca appeared to teach her calf how to charge into the rudder. "It was definitely some form of education, teaching going on,"
https://www.livescience.com/animals/orcas/orcas-have-sunk-3-...
> Experts suspect that a female orca they call White Gladis suffered a "critical moment of agony" — a collision with a boat or entrapment during illegal fishing — that flipped a behavioral switch. "That traumatized orca is the one that started this behavior of physical contact with the boat,"
[+] [-] paradoxyl|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] belter|2 years ago|reply
"Orcas are breaking rudders off boats in Europe" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32593799
"Orcas have learned how to drown great white sharks" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15723393
[+] [-] speed_spread|2 years ago|reply
"Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumb" - https://www.theonion.com/dolphins-evolve-opposable-thumbs-18...
[+] [-] Ccecil|2 years ago|reply
Maybe the autorudder is the issue. PWM noise. In the previous article there was mention that the boats had autorudders on them.
Perhaps this is happening more because more people are using invasive noise producing equipment.
Of course...I am not an Orca researcher, nor am I in Spain. I wonder if it should be mentioned to someone official?
[+] [-] pcurve|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AYBABTME|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] honkycat|2 years ago|reply
Sadly, humanity continues to over fish and poison their home in order to enrich the greedy of this work.
Next time some fuckwad in a suite starts ranting about pronouns and religion, picture a baby whale being dragged to it's death by a fishing vessel. Picture a fishing vessel dumping massive amounts of plastic netting into the ocean. Picture the dead coral reefs, the baked dead fields ruined by rising temperatures.
And ask yourself: Why are they talking about pronouns instead of something that actually fucking matters?
[+] [-] AHOHA|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] echelon|2 years ago|reply
They attack Inuit hunters:
https://www.reddit.com/r/TerrifyingAsFuck/comments/13lji7w/a...
They investigate dogs as potential prey:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8V97_DKfhw
There's ample evidence that they eat moose and deer. (Videos of this can be graphic. There's no hunting, but video of corpses that clearly indicate predation.)
I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility.
[+] [-] sethammons|2 years ago|reply
Orcas eat moose and they are more bony than us I think.
[+] [-] amelius|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codyb|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lisasays|2 years ago|reply
Not the whales doing what they've been doing for millions of years.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] justanotheratom|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olalonde|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neom|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tiktaalik|2 years ago|reply
You'd think these would be the most benign and least impactful of all possible boats on the Orca's environment.
[+] [-] drewmol|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meristohm|2 years ago|reply
[0] https://www.worldcat.org/title/A-whale-of-the-wild/oclc/1225...
[+] [-] cromulent|2 years ago|reply
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/attacking-boat...
[+] [-] mzs|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] notyourwork|2 years ago|reply
Bummer.
[+] [-] manojlds|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olliecornelia|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hidden80|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boffinAudio|2 years ago|reply
I mean, what about feeding them a few snacks - can they be bought off?
Seems to me a daring sailor might ought to find the answers to these questions ..
[+] [-] amadazia|2 years ago|reply
We trousered apes are so primitive and utterly dim when it comes to interspecies communication.
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|2 years ago|reply
I know this is a common and cute framing. But it's escapist.
We're the planet's apex species using our unrivaled control to make it uninhabitable for other complex life. The Earth may not care about the damage we're doing, but the species that are dying would prefer not to. There isn't a rebellion they can mount against us. Their entire survival depends on our giving a shit.
[+] [-] permo-w|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drewmol|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmacjmac|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] newqer|2 years ago|reply