The problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anything else - almost any information is available instantly. But unlike library with silence and no distractions you're at the same time in the middle of the giant public square, where all the people from your social circle also available instantly.
It's like studying in the middle of the giant party. Of course you can plug in noise cancellation headphones and find dark corner, but you brain knows that all people you care about are right here.
If you want to share some thoughts or check on someone in the library you have no choice – you can't talk to them, or have to go outside. But internet removes this constraint.
I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs.
I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations.
So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.
It's not just a public place, but a very specific type of public place: a shopping mall. Were it just a public square with people from your social circle, then it wouldn't be as dangerous.
As a shopping mall, it's full of advertisements, slot machines, games, fast food, sales clerks trying to lead you into the place they want you to be, etc. But it is also the place where almost all your friends are, and almost all the books and newspapers are.
It's hard to leave it because it has valuable things inside (even your office might be inside the mall), but it's also hard to stay in without having your agency taken away by everyone competing for your attention. You could get a book from the bookstore, read it and talk to your friends about it, but it's hard to do that in a mall where everything is designed to take you to their stores, entertainment centers, etc.
I disagree that it’s a problem and with your analogy. The internet is more like a giant sprawling suburb where one house is studying advanced maths and the other is throwing a keg party. Sure it might disturb you to have neighbors like that but you have your own space.
> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
I think this is a bug, not a feature. The mobile phone is to sociality as cocaine is to dopamine. It's super-charged, it's way out of our ancestral environment, and we don't see it as harmful only because we don't have the research yet. But we will.
I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus.
The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL.
What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone):
- Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I should receive a popup asking me why I want to use the app/phone.
- I can enter whatever I want in that popup, but that writing exercise of a few words will help me realize if I am making a mistake of using the crack-gadget too often.
- I should be able to white-list apps.
- I should be able to see my logs all in one place for later review and reflection.
Hey, I'm the author of this small post. I was surprised to see it on HN.
> The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
I think you are right, and it has to do with decreasing UX friction: quick unlocks, overall performance, and muscle memory. I try to add some layers of friction, such as disabling tap to wake, or forcing password unlocks, or even browsers that offer a good but less smooth experience (eInkBro on Android could be one to try.
Overall, I think it helps me to go through apps occasionally and ask myself, “Is it an infinity app? Could I use this forever without content exhausting itself, or a purpose never being fulfilled?”
It's a demanding exercise in deliberate usage, and it can't always succeed (at least for me, I'm not that strong.)
I wish there were a good AOSP eInk phone to still use all the necessary everyday apps, but slower. The new Assistive Access simplified display mode seems very interesting on iOS from a UX perspective:
"Always allowed apps appear normally", others are grayed out. When tapped they present a fullscreen "time out!" screen. You can ignore the limit from that screen but it presents you options and requires two or three taps so it kind of "gets in the way". I presume your input box could fit in there, although personally I think I would end up filling it with nonsense, or it would always be the same.
There's a bunch of analytics, like first pick up app. I don't think there is about overrides.
It can sync across Apple devices so you can't cheat by using another one.
Combine that with home screens + Focus modes and you can get in control.
(also "apps" above can be websites too in Screen Time")
Two habits I have implemented in the last few months:
1. I appended "iknowwhatiamdoing" to the existing alphanumeric password to unlock my phone, and disabled fingerprint unlock. I have to type that every time I want to use the device.
2. I've started asking myself "Does my phone need to remain powered on?" The answer is usually no; then I shut it off completely. This adds a couple minutes of delay / friction next time I feel the compulsion to use it.
Now, I routinely go an entire day with my phone shut off. Sometimes entire weekends, depending what's going on. I think it's been good for me!
Edit: I also realized that it's hazardous to use my phone as a wake-up alarm, because then you start every day half-awake with the info-drug delivery device already in your hand. It's too easy to stay in bed and open up Youtube. So, I've switched (back, after 20 years!) to using a dedicated alarm clock.
One of the worst decisions I have made, in my life, was purchasing Apollo for reddit, that's how good the app is. I have scrolled about 40km with my current reddit account over 40 days. Honestly, I don't want to know how many total.
I have tried setting up screentime, but I need a hard lock mode...
Apple allows you to setup focus modes with whitelists that use location and time, that might do the trick.
Shuffle your app icons to different locations on the the home screen. Added bonus to folders.
Because all apps are in the same locations your muscles memory kicks in. If you shift your apps regularly, you actually have to hunt for the app disrupting the psychological behaviour conditioning.
It also gives you a mini panic attack but allows you to break free of the whole close app, reopen same app syndrome.
I found that I spent more time on Reddit and Twitter than I wanted to. Scrolling on those apps was becoming a coping mechanism for avoiding unpleasant tasks. So I decided that I could only use those apps on a certain day of the week. On that day, I am free to go crazy and scroll all I want but outside of those days, I don't allow myself to open them at all. The first 2 weeks were pretty hard but once I got over the hump, I've gotten used to the new normal. There are still some days where I struggle not to fall off the wagon.
This experience has taught me that you can reset your brain to whatever normal you want. It's hard but doable. I'm not someone that has a ton of willpower but have managed to keep to this for the last couple of months.
It helped me a lot with my addiction to Instagram and the one second breathing helps put things into perspective. I end up (90%) of the time not opening up the app after my one sec.
simplest thing to do is to just put your phone away in a drawer in another room. Keep any distracting gadgets out of where you work, sleep or spend time with other people.
There's really no need for yet another app or trick, just putting distracting devices out of reach is enough of a hassle to only use it when you actually need to.
I'm prefacing this by saying I'm not affiliated in any way, but I found it very humorous that you basically described the app One Sec (iPhone only I think) to a tee. It uses uses shortcuts to put a barrier of your choice before opening specific apps, writing down the intention being one of them.
The concept is pretty great (I actually tried building something similar using shortcuts before it existed) but in the end I found that it doesn't really work for me unfortunately. When my brain decides it wants to look at something, delay isn't enough to make it reconsider.
So ymmv but I think it's worth to try it out.
Its not the phone. Its the screen. It could have been in any form factor - it was in another, less usable, form factor. The portability just clinched it for billions and made the issue of the screen more pressing than ever.
The screen is the window to the matrix, our collective digital space.
That matrix is something incredibly powerful. We have not tamed it. We don't even have a theory of taming it. A psychological, political, economic framework that does not drift into toxic, rapacious abominations.
We need to learn to live this dual existence as individuals.
We need to learn to build sane digital communities.
Admitting we have a really serious problem is the first step.
Theories around mindfulness are a good start, don't you think? What is missing?
I have some thoughts here. Traditional meditation practice is accepting of the tendency of the mind to wander. Such is the nature of our minds. Over time, we strive to improve our ability to focus / concentrate / redirect our attention.
But when it comes to socio-technical design we need more than infinite patience around distractions. We probably want and need to evaluate how we do. Tor example:
- how often are we distracted?
- for how long?
- why? (is it simply due to our 'wandering' brains? And/or it is more causally connected to environmental factors, such as attention-stealing devices?)
- what interventions work for certain kinds of distractions?
Sometimes people are drawn to the notions of metrics. There is value in metrics; there are clear mathematical ways to calculate them. Collecting, them on the other hand, can be quite challenging.
But let's not limit ourselves to 'metrics' in the quantitative sense. The reason is obvious: some of our most important goals are not easily put into quantitative terms. Luckily, with vast improvements in text processing, we need not limit ourselves to traditional metrics based on scoring. We must think bigger and broader.
With a good set of evaluation mechanisms (again, not just metrics), we don't have to fall back on some indefinite mindset about 'doing better'; we can actually demand that products and services be designed and adhere to basic principles. These principles will probably be somewhat subjective and culturally contingent, but that doesn't discount that they can also be grounded in neuroscience, broadly accepted notions of morality, and tunable according to cultural and situational factors.
I am able to focus on work but even when I am super busy with work I will spend a lot of time on mobile. So it doesn't interfere with work but does interfere with health and overall well-being.
I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube.
I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does train my focus to constantly context switch and reduces my ability to focus for non-appealing tasks for a long period like reading books.
Only thing that has helps is putting the device away but banking apps, TOTP, etc. makes it difficult.
But I have unsuccessfully tried DND, gray screen, etc.
There is research that reducing mobile usage by an hour a day improves wellbeing. But I don't know how to tackle this situation in a sustainable manner.
SelfControl for Mac is ridiculously effective. I just leave my mobile phone in another room. TOTP can work with a password manager. I can walk to another room to log into my bank account as needed.
Are there any apps or setting which reduce the saturation of colours? I notice that in many publicly available screens, such as in gyms, the saturation is extremely high drawing my attention to it. I find that this is also the case on my iPhone and Mac.
Certainly I can go monotone. But not desaturate partially.
There is an add-on called unhook that allows you to disable almost everything on youtube.
I turned off shorts, recommendations, the home page even the comments. Now all I see is my subsriptions page. It really stopped me from wasting hours hopping videos.
It also workes on firefox mobile, I stopped using the default youtube app.
Is miss this insight from the iOS screentime feature: The thing often reports: More time spend than last week, average 2.5 hours a day.
Yeah that's fine, but if half is Apple Maps because I had to drive somewhere far away, this result is meaningless.
I indeed also just want to know how much time I spend in soul sucking apps. Or rather, in soul sucking websites because I feel that using websites for ie reddit are what always keeps me there for a short time before annoyance allows me to quit (thank you reddit).
When I'm home my cellphone becomes a "home phone" and is put on the charger in the bedroom where I don't touch it. My average screen on time is single digit minutes for the day.
I screw around here and on other sites more but I can tackle that next.
] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown" alcoholics.[132] Along with Nancy Shute, Peele has advocated that besides AA, other options should be readily available to those problem drinkers who can manage their drinking with the right treatment.
While what you quoted is not incorrect, and worth pointing out, the analogy stands. In AA, you only get the chip if you abstain from drinking. The chip (a little coin) is an all-or-nothing deal.
In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves are supposed to teach some 20-something how to be responsible adult because their parents failed them. Sometimes one of those court-sent people finds out they have a real problem, and end up sticking around. However, for the most part, the rest are there for a few weeks because they have to be, we sign their slips, and never see them again. We don't give out chips for that.
A few weeks ago I made an effort to connect more with local reality and less with the internet and its mountain of suck. To that end I removed all social media apps from my phone (I only had one), and disabled the news feed, search, and browser. I still have all the features I find actually useful, like weather, maps, alarms, calendar, etc.
The first few times you mindlessly look at your phone after doing something like that are a real eye opener. You pull it out, unlock it, and stare at a screen full of nothing and ask yourself why you took it out in the first place.
My mood has improved significantly, and I find I suddenly have time for all those things I've wanted to get done but "haven't had the time for". Without a mindless dopamine trickle to default to I am forced to engage in actually meaningful and satisfying activity most of the time to alleviate boredom.
Do not kid yourself that the behaviors these things induce aren't intended. Marketers don't care about your quality of life, or the health of society itself, they just want your money and they will manipulate you into doom scrolling a bunch of barely interesting bullshit in order to shove ads down your throat without a second thought.
> A few weeks ago I made an effort to connect more with local reality and less with the internet and its mountain of suck. To that end I removed all social media apps from my phone..
Don't you find that a lot of groups, such as your local running club organise over Facebook? Its those groups and even just organising a BBQ with friends that keep me on Facebook.
Yes, but phones are not those things that are okay, unless they're very well-manicured.
It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit.
Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one people are doing anymore. I think that speaks to the effectiveness of the algorithms.
But to your point: Amen. Spend some time getting bored. It fixed a lot for me in the motivation department.
Apropos of this topic, I'm in the middle of reading Dopamine Nation, recommended reading for everyone. Just about anything that gives us pleasure has the potential to be addictive, and unfortunately our entire system is based on getting us to indulge in what makes us feel "good", ergo addictive behaviors are highly encouraged. The tech industry is no exception as UX is generally predicated on making us feel "delighted" i.e. addicted.
I knew a guy at Google (name withheld, for obvious reasons), who would put his phone on the floor face up while in the gym doing pushups. This way, if an email came in, he would know instantly.
While in this case the particular 3 questions do not help, it's nice that these links regularly pop up on HN, at which point I notice that I have been abusing it again...
Great article. I myself am completely unable to limit my consumption of novel information input by “willpower” or whatever. I’m 18 yo, and the internet, programming, HN, reddit and all are too damn interesting, unnaturally, too much. My brain is completely wired to seek novel information input and surge dopamine. I was an addict of some other thing before too, and I know this is %100 dopamine addiction. The only solution that I found to work, that lets my brain “breathe” and brain fog to clear is restricting access.
I set the password of my iPhone to a 20-digit number which I surely won’t be able to memorize while setting it up. I put all my contacts to my Emergency Contacts so that I can call them without unlocking my phone. I’m logged in to WhatsApp Web on my iPad, I use it from there. My iPad has Screen Time on, its settings are controlled from my iPhone. All domains except some necessary government etc. domains are blocked, and new app installing is disabled on the iPad. After setting up Screen Time, I asked my brother to enter a random password for the Screen Time password and forget it.
I created an iOS Shortcut on my iPhone which dictates my password[2] only if I’m X meters away from banned locations (home & school), because every once in a while I need to unlock my phone to do something. I go on a walk/run and unlock my phone in that case. The shortcut is a widget, it works while my phone is locked.
I also time-locked[1] this password to 24 hours (you can only open it after a decryption process which takes 24 hours) and saved it to my DO server in its locked form, because Shortcuts very rarely doesn’t work. I use my server to decrypt if needed.
My computer’s (NixOS) password is time-locked too, as I’m currently still in school and shouldn’t be using it (Little time left to university exam). After the exam, I plan to lock it down to 6 hours a day and writing a browser extension which uses an LLM to close the current tab if I’m not working on my project X and instead say, doomscrolling HN.
2: It doesn’t dictate the password digits for security reasons. It plays a different notification tone for each digit while I’m entering the password. I memorized which sound is which.
> It’s about whether your phone is a needy, attention-sucking vampire.
What else outcomes might be awaited if "the phone" is running non-free software? I am exactly that kind of person whose healthy screen time of snoop phones is zero because of some attention obstructions - but I have no fatigue issues after heavy sessions behind a screen which is powered by Debian without opening any websites requiring JS.
No social media on the phone, computer only; in fact, turn off all notifications not from live human beings trying to contact me personally.
It seems as if the big social media sites are beginning to appreciate this as well? Seems like the formerly "phone only" sites are getting web interfaces...
I don’t stare at my ‘phone’ while my soul expires, I read the ‘newspaper’, group message my family multiple times a day, research something deeper interesting on Wikipedia or a forum, interesting poasts on HN.
I believe heavily in moderation. It’s a virtue after all and although many pleasures in life are extremely difficult to balance by nature, I think it is possible if you start to understand yourself more to see why you escape to a device.
Also I wrote a book on this topic and love sending copies to HN readers who struggle with this problem. Send me an email and I’ll send you a copy.
Back in the dial-up days, my family's internet account was shaped by time. We had thirty hours of internet usage per month.
We had an notebook where you had to log what hours you intended to use it.
I always thought it an effective way that I have now adapted. I keep a notebook full of things I want to read or learn about. Especially if you have a partner to keep you accountable.
It also helps my children learn to use technology instead of it using them.
I like the parallels with AA. Also, re: not how much time you spend on a phone, rather how you use it:
Good uses: listening to good literature on audio books, reading ebooks, reading long form articles on Substack, listening to a good lecture on YouTube.
Bad uses: having any notifications turned on except for specific family members, consuming addictive content of Tic Toc, FB, etc.
EDIT: and use freedom.to tools to limit fun and sometimes useful things like HN and Twitter.
Here's an idea: an app that forces you to solve a fairly complex mathematical puzzle every time you try to open any social media app. This is lifted from Larry Niven's Ringworld sci-fi novels (specifically, a wirehead addict uses this approach to limit their consumption).
Mobile devices don't seem to make this very easy to do, though, you need a app wrapper of some kind which seems fairly case-specific.
The same analogy applies for any screen usage - is the time I’m spending on my TV, computer or tablet disrespecting my time? Dark patterns for attention exist on all screens, they are just more prevalent on phones that are accessible to you all the time.
Those things can be solved in their own way though. A dumb phone can let you check in on your partner, you can use your old smartphone as a dedicated GPS and if you're taking photos with a dedicated camera (which you'll have to if you don't have a smartphone) editing them on mobile is simply not an option. You're better off editing on a laptop or tablet.
Isn't the strength of addiction inversely correlated with how healthy it is?
Or put another way, how the fuck does one begin to like intense outdoor activity at all, much less to the point of it replacing a social media problem (including HN)?
There's only one somewhat reliable "trick" I know that makes people do these kinds of switches: falling in love, or at least getting a crush on, someone who's already doing the healthier thing. Obviously, this method is only available for a small segment of the population and mostly for a few years.
divan|2 years ago
It's like studying in the middle of the giant party. Of course you can plug in noise cancellation headphones and find dark corner, but you brain knows that all people you care about are right here.
If you want to share some thoughts or check on someone in the library you have no choice – you can't talk to them, or have to go outside. But internet removes this constraint.
I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.
TeMPOraL|2 years ago
This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs.
I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations.
So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.
Hayarotle|2 years ago
As a shopping mall, it's full of advertisements, slot machines, games, fast food, sales clerks trying to lead you into the place they want you to be, etc. But it is also the place where almost all your friends are, and almost all the books and newspapers are.
It's hard to leave it because it has valuable things inside (even your office might be inside the mall), but it's also hard to stay in without having your agency taken away by everyone competing for your attention. You could get a book from the bookstore, read it and talk to your friends about it, but it's hard to do that in a mall where everything is designed to take you to their stores, entertainment centers, etc.
throwaway1777|2 years ago
wussboy|2 years ago
I think this is a bug, not a feature. The mobile phone is to sociality as cocaine is to dopamine. It's super-charged, it's way out of our ancestral environment, and we don't see it as harmful only because we don't have the research yet. But we will.
nobrains|2 years ago
I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus.
The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL.
What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone): - Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I should receive a popup asking me why I want to use the app/phone. - I can enter whatever I want in that popup, but that writing exercise of a few words will help me realize if I am making a mistake of using the crack-gadget too often. - I should be able to white-list apps. - I should be able to see my logs all in one place for later review and reflection.
smnrg|2 years ago
> The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.
I think you are right, and it has to do with decreasing UX friction: quick unlocks, overall performance, and muscle memory. I try to add some layers of friction, such as disabling tap to wake, or forcing password unlocks, or even browsers that offer a good but less smooth experience (eInkBro on Android could be one to try.
Overall, I think it helps me to go through apps occasionally and ask myself, “Is it an infinity app? Could I use this forever without content exhausting itself, or a purpose never being fulfilled?”
It's a demanding exercise in deliberate usage, and it can't always succeed (at least for me, I'm not that strong.)
I wish there were a good AOSP eInk phone to still use all the necessary everyday apps, but slower. The new Assistive Access simplified display mode seems very interesting on iOS from a UX perspective:
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/05/apple-previews-live-s...
lloeki|2 years ago
"Always allowed apps appear normally", others are grayed out. When tapped they present a fullscreen "time out!" screen. You can ignore the limit from that screen but it presents you options and requires two or three taps so it kind of "gets in the way". I presume your input box could fit in there, although personally I think I would end up filling it with nonsense, or it would always be the same.
There's a bunch of analytics, like first pick up app. I don't think there is about overrides.
It can sync across Apple devices so you can't cheat by using another one.
Combine that with home screens + Focus modes and you can get in control.
(also "apps" above can be websites too in Screen Time")
chrismartin|2 years ago
1. I appended "iknowwhatiamdoing" to the existing alphanumeric password to unlock my phone, and disabled fingerprint unlock. I have to type that every time I want to use the device.
2. I've started asking myself "Does my phone need to remain powered on?" The answer is usually no; then I shut it off completely. This adds a couple minutes of delay / friction next time I feel the compulsion to use it.
Now, I routinely go an entire day with my phone shut off. Sometimes entire weekends, depending what's going on. I think it's been good for me!
Edit: I also realized that it's hazardous to use my phone as a wake-up alarm, because then you start every day half-awake with the info-drug delivery device already in your hand. It's too easy to stay in bed and open up Youtube. So, I've switched (back, after 20 years!) to using a dedicated alarm clock.
PartiallyTyped|2 years ago
I have tried setting up screentime, but I need a hard lock mode...
Apple allows you to setup focus modes with whitelists that use location and time, that might do the trick.
prox|2 years ago
doublerabbit|2 years ago
Because all apps are in the same locations your muscles memory kicks in. If you shift your apps regularly, you actually have to hunt for the app disrupting the psychological behaviour conditioning.
It also gives you a mini panic attack but allows you to break free of the whole close app, reopen same app syndrome.
takinola|2 years ago
This experience has taught me that you can reset your brain to whatever normal you want. It's hard but doable. I'm not someone that has a ton of willpower but have managed to keep to this for the last couple of months.
ElFitz|2 years ago
aqeelsmith|2 years ago
It helped me a lot with my addiction to Instagram and the one second breathing helps put things into perspective. I end up (90%) of the time not opening up the app after my one sec.
Barrin92|2 years ago
There's really no need for yet another app or trick, just putting distracting devices out of reach is enough of a hassle to only use it when you actually need to.
1Y3|2 years ago
habosa|2 years ago
Aerbil313|2 years ago
nologic01|2 years ago
The screen is the window to the matrix, our collective digital space.
That matrix is something incredibly powerful. We have not tamed it. We don't even have a theory of taming it. A psychological, political, economic framework that does not drift into toxic, rapacious abominations.
We need to learn to live this dual existence as individuals.
We need to learn to build sane digital communities.
Admitting we have a really serious problem is the first step.
xpe|2 years ago
I have some thoughts here. Traditional meditation practice is accepting of the tendency of the mind to wander. Such is the nature of our minds. Over time, we strive to improve our ability to focus / concentrate / redirect our attention.
But when it comes to socio-technical design we need more than infinite patience around distractions. We probably want and need to evaluate how we do. Tor example:
- how often are we distracted? - for how long? - why? (is it simply due to our 'wandering' brains? And/or it is more causally connected to environmental factors, such as attention-stealing devices?) - what interventions work for certain kinds of distractions?
Sometimes people are drawn to the notions of metrics. There is value in metrics; there are clear mathematical ways to calculate them. Collecting, them on the other hand, can be quite challenging.
But let's not limit ourselves to 'metrics' in the quantitative sense. The reason is obvious: some of our most important goals are not easily put into quantitative terms. Luckily, with vast improvements in text processing, we need not limit ourselves to traditional metrics based on scoring. We must think bigger and broader.
With a good set of evaluation mechanisms (again, not just metrics), we don't have to fall back on some indefinite mindset about 'doing better'; we can actually demand that products and services be designed and adhere to basic principles. These principles will probably be somewhat subjective and culturally contingent, but that doesn't discount that they can also be grounded in neuroscience, broadly accepted notions of morality, and tunable according to cultural and situational factors.
Does this make sense?
sledgehammers|2 years ago
Let's start working on the theory!
smnrg|2 years ago
sudhirkhanger|2 years ago
I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube.
I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does train my focus to constantly context switch and reduces my ability to focus for non-appealing tasks for a long period like reading books.
Only thing that has helps is putting the device away but banking apps, TOTP, etc. makes it difficult.
But I have unsuccessfully tried DND, gray screen, etc.
There is research that reducing mobile usage by an hour a day improves wellbeing. But I don't know how to tackle this situation in a sustainable manner.
nicbou|2 years ago
TheMightyLlama|2 years ago
Certainly I can go monotone. But not desaturate partially.
ygouzerh|2 years ago
But I hate the Shorts features, if I click on only one video, it sucks all my night.
I built a small app for blocking the Shorts features, in this way I can enjoy the advantages without having the bad sides.
archixe|2 years ago
It also workes on firefox mobile, I stopped using the default youtube app.
ape4|2 years ago
nicbou|2 years ago
On mobile just use the website.
teekert|2 years ago
Yeah that's fine, but if half is Apple Maps because I had to drive somewhere far away, this result is meaningless.
I indeed also just want to know how much time I spend in soul sucking apps. Or rather, in soul sucking websites because I feel that using websites for ie reddit are what always keeps me there for a short time before annoyance allows me to quit (thank you reddit).
haswell|2 years ago
The daily average is just a benchmark to see high level trends. Drilling down is far more interesting.
The “first used after pickup” report can be quite interesting as well.
2OEH8eoCRo0|2 years ago
I screw around here and on other sites more but I can tackle that next.
eesmith|2 years ago
I don't agree with that analogy. To use a different analogy, people don't join Weight Watchers because they want to quit eating.
Also, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism :
] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown" alcoholics.[132] Along with Nancy Shute, Peele has advocated that besides AA, other options should be readily available to those problem drinkers who can manage their drinking with the right treatment.
tinsmith|2 years ago
In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves are supposed to teach some 20-something how to be responsible adult because their parents failed them. Sometimes one of those court-sent people finds out they have a real problem, and end up sticking around. However, for the most part, the rest are there for a few weeks because they have to be, we sign their slips, and never see them again. We don't give out chips for that.
AnIdiotOnTheNet|2 years ago
The first few times you mindlessly look at your phone after doing something like that are a real eye opener. You pull it out, unlock it, and stare at a screen full of nothing and ask yourself why you took it out in the first place.
My mood has improved significantly, and I find I suddenly have time for all those things I've wanted to get done but "haven't had the time for". Without a mindless dopamine trickle to default to I am forced to engage in actually meaningful and satisfying activity most of the time to alleviate boredom.
Do not kid yourself that the behaviors these things induce aren't intended. Marketers don't care about your quality of life, or the health of society itself, they just want your money and they will manipulate you into doom scrolling a bunch of barely interesting bullshit in order to shove ads down your throat without a second thought.
aembleton|2 years ago
Don't you find that a lot of groups, such as your local running club organise over Facebook? Its those groups and even just organising a BBQ with friends that keep me on Facebook.
tomjen3|2 years ago
davidkuennen|2 years ago
Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.
qup|2 years ago
It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit.
Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one people are doing anymore. I think that speaks to the effectiveness of the algorithms.
But to your point: Amen. Spend some time getting bored. It fixed a lot for me in the motivation department.
rubidium|2 years ago
Idly dopamine dripping on internet is like spraying salt on your fields. Nothings going to grow.
westernpopular|2 years ago
swayvil|2 years ago
She says, "ask your rat". Points at my phone.
I reply, "Rat?".
"Yes. It's the size and weight of a rat. It squeaks like a rat"
"And it spies on me".
"Yes".
baremetal|2 years ago
I meditate or engage with people standing while in lines.
If I'm gonna spend time on a computer I do it on a laptop at home. All my HN browsing is on a laptop.
I keep the phone in a separate room.
I don't give myself the slack to spend time looking at my phone. Its a waste of time anyway and I end up missing out on life.
passwordoops|2 years ago
https://www.annalembke.com/dopamine-nation
frankish|2 years ago
I wonder if that also relates to my ADHD hyperfocus.
AlbertCory|2 years ago
Three little words: It can wait.
BxGyw2|2 years ago
WJW|2 years ago
People don't do it because it's healthy, obviously.
BlueTemplar|2 years ago
Aerbil313|2 years ago
I set the password of my iPhone to a 20-digit number which I surely won’t be able to memorize while setting it up. I put all my contacts to my Emergency Contacts so that I can call them without unlocking my phone. I’m logged in to WhatsApp Web on my iPad, I use it from there. My iPad has Screen Time on, its settings are controlled from my iPhone. All domains except some necessary government etc. domains are blocked, and new app installing is disabled on the iPad. After setting up Screen Time, I asked my brother to enter a random password for the Screen Time password and forget it.
I created an iOS Shortcut on my iPhone which dictates my password[2] only if I’m X meters away from banned locations (home & school), because every once in a while I need to unlock my phone to do something. I go on a walk/run and unlock my phone in that case. The shortcut is a widget, it works while my phone is locked.
I also time-locked[1] this password to 24 hours (you can only open it after a decryption process which takes 24 hours) and saved it to my DO server in its locked form, because Shortcuts very rarely doesn’t work. I use my server to decrypt if needed.
My computer’s (NixOS) password is time-locked too, as I’m currently still in school and shouldn’t be using it (Little time left to university exam). After the exam, I plan to lock it down to 6 hours a day and writing a browser extension which uses an LLM to close the current tab if I’m not working on my project X and instead say, doomscrolling HN.
1: I use this program I wrote, in case anyone is interested: https://github.com/aerbil313/timelock
2: It doesn’t dictate the password digits for security reasons. It plays a different notification tone for each digit while I’m entering the password. I memorized which sound is which.
eimrine|2 years ago
What else outcomes might be awaited if "the phone" is running non-free software? I am exactly that kind of person whose healthy screen time of snoop phones is zero because of some attention obstructions - but I have no fatigue issues after heavy sessions behind a screen which is powered by Debian without opening any websites requiring JS.
arrow7000|2 years ago
abwizz|2 years ago
non-free means they want something in return - mostly our data and attention
jrm4|2 years ago
No social media on the phone, computer only; in fact, turn off all notifications not from live human beings trying to contact me personally.
It seems as if the big social media sites are beginning to appreciate this as well? Seems like the formerly "phone only" sites are getting web interfaces...
quickthrower2|2 years ago
Just watch out for your posture
smnrg|2 years ago
eucryphia|2 years ago
Your mileage depends on your self discipline.
thenerdhead|2 years ago
Also I wrote a book on this topic and love sending copies to HN readers who struggle with this problem. Send me an email and I’ll send you a copy.
https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Seeking-less-world-more/dp/B0B...
thriller|2 years ago
We had an notebook where you had to log what hours you intended to use it.
I always thought it an effective way that I have now adapted. I keep a notebook full of things I want to read or learn about. Especially if you have a partner to keep you accountable.
It also helps my children learn to use technology instead of it using them.
Not in the book? I don't look at it.
mark_l_watson|2 years ago
Good uses: listening to good literature on audio books, reading ebooks, reading long form articles on Substack, listening to a good lecture on YouTube.
Bad uses: having any notifications turned on except for specific family members, consuming addictive content of Tic Toc, FB, etc.
EDIT: and use freedom.to tools to limit fun and sometimes useful things like HN and Twitter.
photochemsyn|2 years ago
Mobile devices don't seem to make this very easy to do, though, you need a app wrapper of some kind which seems fairly case-specific.
nicbou|2 years ago
On desktop just use SelfControl.
swayvil|2 years ago
Consider the implications of "temptation". Consider "bound soul", "free soul", "damned soul".
Consider a soul, and a body, in a subway car, diddling with its phone, on the way to work.
It really sheds light on the subject.
redkoala|2 years ago
josefresco|2 years ago
I run into this conundrum every time I consider a dumbphone.
nehal3m|2 years ago
izackp|2 years ago
A great statement. I apply this to many things especially video games.
whiplash451|2 years ago
For instance: intense outdoor activity, time spent working in a farm, etc.
The tech we’ve built is insanely addictive.
TeMPOraL|2 years ago
Or put another way, how the fuck does one begin to like intense outdoor activity at all, much less to the point of it replacing a social media problem (including HN)?
There's only one somewhat reliable "trick" I know that makes people do these kinds of switches: falling in love, or at least getting a crush on, someone who's already doing the healthier thing. Obviously, this method is only available for a small segment of the population and mostly for a few years.
jjgreen|2 years ago
kang|2 years ago
jcadam|2 years ago
adamwong246|2 years ago
bckr|2 years ago
boring_twenties|2 years ago
dingleberry|2 years ago
predictabl3|2 years ago
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