It still astonishes me how people can be so naive and believe anything tech executives say without it being independently verified, even after Snowden and Twitter Files and all the revelations about the CCP.
It's all bits and since China has the executives of course they'll always retain a way to access the data as long as no independent entity is watching over them and all entities in China are under control of the CCP.
Since all companies are under the control of their respective government, I think the most prudent course of action on the individual level is to try to use services controlled by a government that has no practical control over your life
Instead of thinking of it as us vs. them, think of it as your own personal threat assessment. Google is all nice and friendly now. They serve all that JS and Fonts for free and give you free storage, calendars, teleconferencing etc... but how about in 10 years when they start loosing revenue to some AI startup that is better than search? Will they be so nice with your data then?
I use a Xiaomi phone , a Huawei laptop and an Aliyun email .. if they are exfiltrating my data and know which AI porn I look at.. It has zero impact on my life. They're not even able to target advertising to me because they don't control the relevant platforms (I guess they could sell my data to Google, but it seems unlikely). I hope the Chinese are doing similarly and using western platforms :)
This seems like a great way to hand China blackmail material that they can leverage against you.
Obviously, I don't like government surveillance, but at least in the west we are (1) generally protected from the worst excesses by legislation, and (2) generally aligned with our own government's priorities on a very high level view (eg: support for liberal democracy), if not the specifics. Those two do not hold for China, especially for data from a foreigner.
Even if you don't hold a security clearance, you can still be a target for hostile foreign actors, especially in the tech sector. What happens if a foreign actor with blackmail material on you threatens to destroy your life unless you cough up implementation details for a system you're working on, or open up a backdoor?
If you are concerned about surveillance, fine, but there are much better ways to avoid it by using privacy-respecting self hosted and commercial services. Replacing American big tech with Chinese big tech is just trading bad for worse.
It has zero impact on your life now, but you should strongly prefer that they don't, so as to keep your options open in the future. An analogy might be making sure you don't leak a sextape of yourself when you're young and don't care about who sees it, in case you run for public office in your 50s.
> a government that has no practical control over your life
As long as you don't try to get hired by a company owned by or having a large presence in China. Though even otherwise, you may be underestimating their influence:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-write... - The CCP forced a Colorado highschool to edit their website to say Taiwan is a province of China. The school complied, so that the kids could attend United Nations Commission on the Status of Women.
shhhh. we don't talk about that. or how media and news are ultimately controlled by what advertisers want the reporters to say. or how now google dictates how long a video must be and what subjects are forbidden to even be hinted at on youtube, to please advertisers, of course.
I can't believe their source said "superuser", but the journalist literally put that in quotes and replaced it with "god credential", as if "god credential" has ever been a term.
What gets me is that people think that China's business-political environment is a carbon copy of the US.
People think that because they understand how things work in the US, they understand how things work in China. That because in the US businesses have functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach, that China functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach.
Which is completely not the case. China is essentially a dictatorship. With one leader of one party that dominates everything, kangaroo courts and disappearing family, the works.
Don’t forget that the people who’ve convinced themselves the US government is bad so they look at China doing something far worse or far more extreme and try to argue it’s the same - it’s because of predictable cognitive biases that more self awareness would easily alleviate.
I don't think they believe that, they are just gaslighting us.
Anyone that thinks so, can go to China and call our the leadership. Or go to Middle East and call out their leadership and see what happens.
They can easily do that in the US, you can get on social media, go on TV, write an article about why the president, the supreme court, senate are a bunch of idiots and keep living your life with your freedom. Try the equivalent else where if you believe it's the same. They don't and they won't because they know it's not.
>People think that because they understand how things work in the US, they understand how things work in China. That because in the US businesses have functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach, that China functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach. Which is completely not the case. China is essentially a dictatorship. With one leader of one party that dominates everything, kangaroo courts and disappearing family, the works.
Having worked with a Chinese University and had a Chinese business as a client, I can attest that this is indeed the case. It's not essentially a dictatorship, it IS a dictatorship. Except it's not by one person, it's by a political party that has ingrained itself at every level of one's life in that country.
In the US, there is the government, there are private companies who don't interact with the government at all, there are public companies who don't directly work with the state but still have influence on the state (think large scale food providers or airlines or car makers), and there are public companies that sometimes can blur the separation line due to how ingrained they are with the state's infrastructure (for example, Lockheed-Martin or Microsoft). Sometimes any of these different types of entities might be asked to do the state's bidding, but they can refuse (in some cases) or negotiate, or get things in return (tax breaks, etc).
In China, there is The Party. That's it. Everything is intentionally an arm of the state, directly or indirectly. The Party controls everything and every action any organization of any meaningful size whatsoever is directly done to aid The Party's goals. The Party has a representative at the highest level of every major company in China, and said representative isn't just there to be in meetings, they are there to control the company to make sure said company is doing what The Party wants them to do.
Keep in mind that China's goals != The Party's goals....despite what The Party wants you (and its citizens) to think.
Jack Ma fucked himself off the Ant Financial deal because The Party representatives at Ant were also the heads of the Chinese state bank. He talked shit to their faces, so The Party decided that he was too big, so they took him to task and made him "donate" a few billion to The Party.
Imagine if Zuck told the government regulators to pound sand on national TV, and the government basically responded with "ok, well, you can donate 25% of your net worth to our political party, or the world will never hear from you again". That's China.
Really, the primary difference is that the US has covert god credentials, as where China has overt god credentials. “Functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach” don’t apply against agencies with qualified immunity. That applies to most every three-letter agency here in the US.
The business-political leadership in the United States shares the same goals as the Chinese leadership - maintaining tight control over their own power and wealth - but each uses quite different tactics to achieve that goal. Both are equally alarmed by political movements that seek to weaken their status, in particular. See:
The U.S. government is pretty steadily pushing towards adopting many elements of the Chinese model, such as censorship of social media (although more often by the tactic of amplifying some themes and suppressing others, shadow-banning and so on). Does anyone really doubt that the current political leadership would jump at the chance to assign everyone a 'social credit score', for example, that would influence their ability to travel, get a job, etc., based on criteria that they themselves determined (e.g. support for US foreign policy decisions, domestic economic programs, positive attitudes about a two-party political system largely controlled by a small number of wealthy donors, etc.)?
The U.S. is more in danger of becoming like China, than the other way around.
The difference is more like the US is held by corporate business interests while China is under firm control by the Party. They both however end up having opaque government apparatuses for surveillance and control (with differing characteristics of course).
If anyone wants to get more of a feel for this, listen to the Huawei episode of the Acquired podcast. They get a bit more into the weeds on the practical differences between companies in the US/Europe and in China, and what it means for how they're run, how they compete, etc.
> People think that because they understand how things work in the US, they understand how things work in China.
So to your own point - Why should we believe what you say about China? Are you even Chinese? Maybe you’re a Chinese expert?
Given how few Americans properly understand how the American government functions I’m skeptical Americans understand the Chinese government and its nuance.
I wonder what kind of information they could reasonably extract from an average user's TikTok viewing habits?
Imagine a US congressman used TikTok for 90 minutes per week. They don't write any comments just scroll through videos and potentially like/share some videos.
Everyone talks about how scary good the TikTok algorithm is at determining your preferences and sending you laser focused content that you will find interesting and engaging. I am curious how much of that preference is extractable and how that might be valuable for purposes other than delivering viral short-form video.
If true, this iS why when asked if the CCP had ask to US data ByteDance replied that they had never received any such request. Well, the question and answer are curiously about two different things, and this the arrangement I suspected might exist. Give the CCP their own creds so they don't have to ask and you don't have to know.
Just a reality check: communications have been under government surveillance since the inception of government. We don't approve of Bytedance being in the pocket of the Chinese Communist party, but no one should delude himself about Google or Facebook.
Well according to some people on HN, it's all good and dandy. China is no worse than the US is the latest version of moral relativism we have to deal with. So if they have your data, it's all okay.
The way I see it as an European is that basically everything China does, the US does or has done, and to me they are both foreign powers. If I don't have qualms about using instagram why should I have qualms about using tiktok.
It's not about really about if they are worse. China having all my Tik Tok data is preferable then the US having any of my data. China isn't going to come disappear me in the US. The US might.
People should be more concerned about their own government spying on it's citizens that they should be about the CCP having that same data.
As a subject to your government's surveillance regime, you are at risk of losing more rights and freedoms than you are to foreign surveillance(unless that foreign surveillance is a proxy for your own goverment).
It's not that, and it's not okay. It's just less impactful if a foreign government has your data vs the one that can actually apply meaningful consequences if they don't like what they see.
Weird comment. What are you deflecting from? It’s a very clear article.
>In the documents submitted to the court he said ByteDance had a "superuser" credential — also known as a god credential — that enabled a special committee of Chinese Communist Party members stationed at the company to view all data collected by ByteDance including those of U.S. users.
>The credential acted as a "backdoor to any barrier ByteDance had supposedly installed to protect data from the C.C.P's surveillance," the filing says.
>Yu said he saw the god credential being used to keep tabs on Hong Kong protesters and civil rights activists by monitoring their locations and devices, their network information, SIM card identifications, IP addresses and communications.
Is always been like that under communists or socialist like regimes, privacy is not a right under those systems and government officials are omnipotent. Thinking otherwise is wishful thinking and ingenuity at best.
For example in Cuba everything is being monitored by the government: physical mail, internet, cellular data, neighbour watch organizations and so on. And is the same for tourists and foreigner businesses there.
[+] [-] sn_master|2 years ago|reply
It's all bits and since China has the executives of course they'll always retain a way to access the data as long as no independent entity is watching over them and all entities in China are under control of the CCP.
[+] [-] contrarian1234|2 years ago|reply
Instead of thinking of it as us vs. them, think of it as your own personal threat assessment. Google is all nice and friendly now. They serve all that JS and Fonts for free and give you free storage, calendars, teleconferencing etc... but how about in 10 years when they start loosing revenue to some AI startup that is better than search? Will they be so nice with your data then?
I use a Xiaomi phone , a Huawei laptop and an Aliyun email .. if they are exfiltrating my data and know which AI porn I look at.. It has zero impact on my life. They're not even able to target advertising to me because they don't control the relevant platforms (I guess they could sell my data to Google, but it seems unlikely). I hope the Chinese are doing similarly and using western platforms :)
[+] [-] Sanzig|2 years ago|reply
Obviously, I don't like government surveillance, but at least in the west we are (1) generally protected from the worst excesses by legislation, and (2) generally aligned with our own government's priorities on a very high level view (eg: support for liberal democracy), if not the specifics. Those two do not hold for China, especially for data from a foreigner.
Even if you don't hold a security clearance, you can still be a target for hostile foreign actors, especially in the tech sector. What happens if a foreign actor with blackmail material on you threatens to destroy your life unless you cough up implementation details for a system you're working on, or open up a backdoor?
If you are concerned about surveillance, fine, but there are much better ways to avoid it by using privacy-respecting self hosted and commercial services. Replacing American big tech with Chinese big tech is just trading bad for worse.
[+] [-] prottog|2 years ago|reply
It has zero impact on your life now, but you should strongly prefer that they don't, so as to keep your options open in the future. An analogy might be making sure you don't leak a sextape of yourself when you're young and don't care about who sees it, in case you run for public office in your 50s.
[+] [-] NoRelToEmber|2 years ago|reply
As long as you don't try to get hired by a company owned by or having a large presence in China. Though even otherwise, you may be underestimating their influence:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/14/china-open...
https://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-australian-voters-pu...
For the release of “Fantastic Beasts” in China, Warner Bros edited out any references to a gay relationship. - https://variety.com/2022/film/news/fantastic-beasts-3-gay-di...
China's unofficial trade war pressures Apple to build its economy and technology - https://www.theinformation.com/articles/facing-hostile-chine...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-21/china-australia-polit...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-makes-sure-everyone-write... - The CCP forced a Colorado highschool to edit their website to say Taiwan is a province of China. The school complied, so that the kids could attend United Nations Commission on the Status of Women.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/chinese-censorship-surve...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/116723925/posters-depicting...
Disney Pressed American Magazine to Delete Star Director’s Quote Criticizing China - https://www.nationalreview.com/news/disney-pressed-american-...
Apple Told Some Apple TV+ Show Developers Not To Anger China - https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/alexkantrowitz/apple-ch...
[+] [-] azinman2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] naraga|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shashurup|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ownshdksbdk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LoganDark|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Workaccount2|2 years ago|reply
People think that because they understand how things work in the US, they understand how things work in China. That because in the US businesses have functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach, that China functional constitutionally granted protections from government overreach.
Which is completely not the case. China is essentially a dictatorship. With one leader of one party that dominates everything, kangaroo courts and disappearing family, the works.
[+] [-] mint2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] segmondy|2 years ago|reply
Anyone that thinks so, can go to China and call our the leadership. Or go to Middle East and call out their leadership and see what happens.
They can easily do that in the US, you can get on social media, go on TV, write an article about why the president, the supreme court, senate are a bunch of idiots and keep living your life with your freedom. Try the equivalent else where if you believe it's the same. They don't and they won't because they know it's not.
[+] [-] NickC25|2 years ago|reply
Having worked with a Chinese University and had a Chinese business as a client, I can attest that this is indeed the case. It's not essentially a dictatorship, it IS a dictatorship. Except it's not by one person, it's by a political party that has ingrained itself at every level of one's life in that country.
In the US, there is the government, there are private companies who don't interact with the government at all, there are public companies who don't directly work with the state but still have influence on the state (think large scale food providers or airlines or car makers), and there are public companies that sometimes can blur the separation line due to how ingrained they are with the state's infrastructure (for example, Lockheed-Martin or Microsoft). Sometimes any of these different types of entities might be asked to do the state's bidding, but they can refuse (in some cases) or negotiate, or get things in return (tax breaks, etc).
In China, there is The Party. That's it. Everything is intentionally an arm of the state, directly or indirectly. The Party controls everything and every action any organization of any meaningful size whatsoever is directly done to aid The Party's goals. The Party has a representative at the highest level of every major company in China, and said representative isn't just there to be in meetings, they are there to control the company to make sure said company is doing what The Party wants them to do.
Keep in mind that China's goals != The Party's goals....despite what The Party wants you (and its citizens) to think.
Jack Ma fucked himself off the Ant Financial deal because The Party representatives at Ant were also the heads of the Chinese state bank. He talked shit to their faces, so The Party decided that he was too big, so they took him to task and made him "donate" a few billion to The Party.
Imagine if Zuck told the government regulators to pound sand on national TV, and the government basically responded with "ok, well, you can donate 25% of your net worth to our political party, or the world will never hear from you again". That's China.
[+] [-] johngalt_|2 years ago|reply
That worked great in the case of PRISM et al
[+] [-] lumb63|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] photochemsyn|2 years ago|reply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China
The U.S. government is pretty steadily pushing towards adopting many elements of the Chinese model, such as censorship of social media (although more often by the tactic of amplifying some themes and suppressing others, shadow-banning and so on). Does anyone really doubt that the current political leadership would jump at the chance to assign everyone a 'social credit score', for example, that would influence their ability to travel, get a job, etc., based on criteria that they themselves determined (e.g. support for US foreign policy decisions, domestic economic programs, positive attitudes about a two-party political system largely controlled by a small number of wealthy donors, etc.)?
The U.S. is more in danger of becoming like China, than the other way around.
[+] [-] smugma|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CrackerNews|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danpalmer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LatteLazy|2 years ago|reply
Wait, who thinks that?!
[+] [-] Convolutional|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] endisneigh|2 years ago|reply
So to your own point - Why should we believe what you say about China? Are you even Chinese? Maybe you’re a Chinese expert?
Given how few Americans properly understand how the American government functions I’m skeptical Americans understand the Chinese government and its nuance.
[+] [-] zoogeny|2 years ago|reply
Imagine a US congressman used TikTok for 90 minutes per week. They don't write any comments just scroll through videos and potentially like/share some videos.
Everyone talks about how scary good the TikTok algorithm is at determining your preferences and sending you laser focused content that you will find interesting and engaging. I am curious how much of that preference is extractable and how that might be valuable for purposes other than delivering viral short-form video.
[+] [-] peauc|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xrd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paradox242|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Havoc|2 years ago|reply
Any country is going to tap into any local deep data sources
[+] [-] mindslight|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] standing_user|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HarryHirsch|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tgv|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] danielrpa|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|2 years ago|reply
You can find "some people" on HN to match basically anything.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[+] [-] veave|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Miner49er|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krunck|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CrackerNews|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] NLPaep|2 years ago|reply
>In the documents submitted to the court he said ByteDance had a "superuser" credential — also known as a god credential — that enabled a special committee of Chinese Communist Party members stationed at the company to view all data collected by ByteDance including those of U.S. users.
>The credential acted as a "backdoor to any barrier ByteDance had supposedly installed to protect data from the C.C.P's surveillance," the filing says.
>Yu said he saw the god credential being used to keep tabs on Hong Kong protesters and civil rights activists by monitoring their locations and devices, their network information, SIM card identifications, IP addresses and communications.
[+] [-] LaEc|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve76|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] SaintSeiya|2 years ago|reply