All the data is good, but the way it is framed is a bit misleading.
First, lets get one thing straight: dysfunction in the dating world negatively affects both men and women. So framing it as "men floundering, women most affected" is disingenuous. What is it about the prospects a man has that he has no desire to become desirable? If men's lives are less rewarding wouldn't it be them, not the women, that are the most affected? We are talking about these mens lives after all.
"They just want to play videogames" come on. This has got to be the most surface level trope quality take I've seen. Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that. Maybe men prefer casual sex because that's about the best they can hope for in today's world. Maybe with the divorce rate what it is, the birth rate low, and the social stigma against division of labor to maintain a household, it's not worth it to meet anyone's expectations anymore. Maybe men do desire more and maybe women aren't interested in satisfying those desires either.
You're right, it's a play on the meme: "man dead, woman most affected".
Popular culture has become structurally anti-male. The ease at which we're described as simplistic, violent, sexual addicts doesn't seem to surprise anyone anymore.
This article almost makes a humanitarian problem out of a luxury problem: highly educated women unable to find somebody even richer than them.
> So framing it as "men floundering, women most affected" is disingenuous.
My 2c as a gay man that has many women as friends. They aren’t looking for “status” they are looking for someone who is emotionally intelligent. And thinking that gaining status is how to gain women is pretty much the opposite of that.
Patriarchy hurts both sexes. By thinking of status and power as avenues to sex you stunt your ability to connect with others. And it sets up a negative dynamic because if gaining power is the goal then having an egalitarian relationship with your lover is not possible.
> Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that.
If you think that lowly of women, why would they spend any time with you at all?
Many of these kinds of articles are always seem to be slanted in how it negatively affects women. Women desiring more successful partners, yet men aren't keeping up. I'd be interested if there was any good article broaching that subject more, instead of remarkably pithy answers like "it's those damn video games."
Funny thing about that, it's women (for hetros) that are the determination of what is 'desirable'. As a man, I agree with a lot of those who are discouraged with dating and running through the unwinnable rat race.
>Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that.
When exactly have relations ever offered much more than that, realistically? Relationships have always (since love marriages became common at least, which is actually relatively recent, historically) offered some rosy vision of love and affection and family and all that, but in reality, only a minority of marriages actually succeeded in having a happy couple without a lot of dysfunction. Unhappy couples were normal in days gone by.
The divorce rate is only high because it's now acceptable to divorce, so unhappy people aren't staying in bad marriages any more. And lately, the divorce rate is falling because people simply aren't getting married as much, and more people are instead avoiding getting into a bad marriage in the first place, unlike their parents and grandparents.
If two people can find true long-term love and affection in a relationship, that's really great. But let's stop pretending that this was ever the norm. It wasn't.
There's also no fault attributed to modern university culture. Is there something about the way they teach that alienates men? Perhaps it's just a reflection of the job market and the fact that a university education doesn't buy much these days.
Men suffer from "their own success" and are probably more romantic than women are overall and expect their relationships to be like dreams, hence they really can't put too much in a relationship that might fail, considering that the "market" is huge and it's hard to trust most people. It was way easier before to get laid, wasn't it?
What I find interesting and I am curious if these conversations can happen anymore.
I no longer discuss anything related to gender, relationships, or personal life dynamics with anyone outside of my bubble. I would enjoy the conversation, learning about another's ideas and understanding although despite assurances of maturity and openness conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements.
I do not believe ideas and ideals can be discussed with the general public.
I also avoid these types of conversations for the same reason. Even with people I know and have friendships with, I tend to be very cautious when approaching those topics. There's definitely a sense of "walking on eggshells", especially with the younger or more progressive crowd (note: I'm mostly progressive as well). I am nearly 40 and living in the West Coast of the US, so that may play a part.
If you're in the US, the reason for this above is because certain political groups have adopted a zero-tolerance stance on discussion on many topics, and viciously attack people who try to have conversations about them that aren't affirmations of their positions.
> I do not believe ideas and ideals can be discussed with the general public.
Although most cultures have always had at least some small set of "taboos" for which this was true, I believe that we're in times where that set is especially large, or at least it is for the above groups of people.
> conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements.
Where are you? In the US, most of us still have these conversations about gender, relationships, and life dynamics all the time. (If anything, this is arguably 70%+ of everything we talk about, among friends and acquaintances in the community).
> although despite assurances of maturity and openness conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements.
Is there a common thread here? Can you imagine what might prompt such a response?
Conversations about high income as a factor in attracting women often seem to neglect to mention that it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women. Telling women you want to put your high income to work in enabling you to retire early but live a modest life and use that freedom to pursue creative pursuits doesn't have the same effect as taking them to the luxury apartment you rent or inviting them to join you on a romantic, paid for, tropical getaway.
If you're advertising flashy, high-spending lifestyle, that's who you'll attract. But the women who are looking for long-term stability will stay away. And vice versa.
Of course, if you want the not-high-spending women, you need to have something other than money and flashy lifestyle to offer. I think some guys get hung up there.
This doesn't match my experience at all. In my experience, in most adult heterosexual long-term relationships it's usually the female partner who is insisting on long-term planning, financial planning, avoiding frivolous purchases, etc. and are happy if men don't start conflicts over this. Your exaggerated example basically screams "husband material".
I'm not trying to poke the bear by saying this, but I wonder if you'd still believe this after speaking to 100 women from different cities, backgrounds, and walks of life.
Women aren't a monoculture.
I've been a serial dater for 20+ years now (38M) I've been with 70+ women, and about 10-15 of those for long term. I think more about dating dynamics than basically anyone I've ever met. I'm not sure why.
The main takeaway I see from relationships is that I'm expected to give, understand, listen, and bend to be some perfect modern man. I need to be beyond financially stable, I need to be tough, but also have some romantic comedy movie side of me. And she's expected to technically not sleep with anyone else but also I'm not allowed to think about that at all even or I'm insecure.
Whenever I start dating a woman, even if she has a good job, I feel like I'm taking on a dependent. Which would technically be fine, if I was appreciated for it. But I'm not. I'm basically chastised if I even notice that I'm giving a lot. "What, youre giving a lot? This is a lot? You must not be as good as I thought you were if this is a noticeable amount of giving to you". I'm not talking about just money. It's everything.
I can summarize my main problem with relationships via this old joke:
Q: What do women want?
A: More.
And that's why I won't marry and more and more won't date. I have a big enough collection of previous partners that calls me every time their bfs act up or bore them or disappoint them. Another reason to stay away from them.
This is a known issue but the down stream effect won’t be felt for a while.
Let’s be clear we’re talking about general behavioral trend, not trying to police an individual, which is the crux of contention for these topics.
Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true.
The education gap between men and women are growing. More women enroll and graduate from college then men. Many young men, mostly lower-middle class, (whether fairly or not) feel like the education system does not work for them.
Society and companies are reconciling the barriers for women’s advancement and we’re only observing this initial gap. That is well and good. But in 10-20 years women will out number men in many fields requiring higher education.
The real problem arises when that clashes with traditional expectations. The women in the article is a successful Yale grad who wants a partner with better pedigree. If you include looks and height requirements her dating pool is like <0.01% of the population. As that cascades to women in general with college education refusing to consider men in trade, that mismatch grows wider.
The implication of the dating “market” not being able to match buyers and sellers would have some interesting dynamics.
I mean the research is nice, but I don't think that just a degree is going to up your chances. As someone who is using these apps constantly, I don't have any hope of finding a long term partner on there.
I am on pretty much every app, except Tinder (Bumble, Hinge, okcupid, pof and even muzmatch (im south asian)). I have a bachelors, and I make good money. I've been told that I am a decent looking guy and I have quite a few hobbies. It's easy for me to make friends, so I don't think I fit the programmer stereotype.
I am on these apps with the explicit intention of finding a long term partner and I've made it clear, but it seems that >95% of people are there for flings, fwb or casual hookups.
I am starting to realize that dating apps are broken, if you are looking for a serious relationship - there's just no way you are going to find it on here.
The focus of the study has been on guys with higher education, and from what I've seen girls here are not that well educated. Perhaps this is a small city phenomenon (pop. 1.5 mil), but it's quite shocking to see this disparity (That's another topic).
Take this as you will, maybe it's just me venting or whatever, but it's tough out there and these apps are just not it.
I read a book awhile ago called Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?, which basically argues that cultures which strongly promote traditional values, having children, etc. will evolutionarily outcompete groups that don’t.
It made me think that there must be a kind of cycle in human societies, where certain social values (like the ones mentioned in the article) are able to become popular for a short period of time (which can be over a century long) but ultimately have no ability to sustain themselves and then are outcompeted. The amount of “defectors” isn’t enough to sustain the population.
Given how difficult it seems for any genuinely universal cultural movement to take off in the dating space, it seems to me like a similar thing will happen over the course of the 21st and 22nd centuries.
Towards the end, the article posits that the reason men fail to attain higher levels of education is video games.
I would be curious to see how the effect of video games stacks up against the effect of the significant support industry established for helping girls succeed in STEM while comparable support for boys is nonexistent.
I'll probably be downvoted to hell for this but here goes...
The state of the current education system is outright hostility towards boys. feminists (specifically third wave) long ago, infiltrated k-12 and shove their ideology down little boys throats at every level. any overt show of masculinity is treated as toxic. I don't think a lot of this pride stuff being pushed by the mainstream media right now is about accepting lgbtqa+(and whomever else I'm probably missing) members of society. Its more about instilling feminine traits onto young boys. Since there are few male teachers, the boys without a strong father figure at home never get taught how to channel their masculine energy in a healthy way. It continues to university where all the programs are geared towards the advancement of women.
Its fairly unsurprising that incel culture has grown rampant given the massive scale of male disenfranchisment. I'm lucky to have been raised in a 2 parent household with a dad who gave a damn about making sure I had educational opportunities in life. many guys out there right now weren't so lucky.
Now we're teetering towards a system where a lot of men have simply been left behind. its a recipe for societal collapse. Meanwhile we can't even build a simple high speed rail line or critical infrastructure. I fear for the future and I'm not really sure what the way out is.
> Men are more likely than women to point to factors that have more to do with personal choice. Roughly a third (34%) of men without a bachelor’s degree say a major reason they didn’t complete college is that they just didn’t want to. Only one-in-four women say the same. Non-college-educated men are also more likely than their female counterparts to say a major reason they don’t have a four-year degree is that they didn’t need more education for the job or career they wanted (26% of men say this vs. 20% of women).
> Women (44%) are more likely than men (39%) to say not being able to afford college is a major reason they don’t have a bachelor’s degree. Men and women are about equally likely to say needing to work to help support their family was a major impediment.
> In some instances, the gender gaps in the reasons for not completing college are more pronounced among White adults than among Black or Hispanic adults. About four-in-ten White men who didn’t complete four years of college (39%) say a major reason for this is that they just didn’t want to. This compares with 27% of White women without a degree. Views on this don’t differ significantly by gender for Black or Hispanic adults.
> In this blog post, we argue against these explanations, showing it is unlikely that the gender gap in college attendance reflects some sort of failure on the part of educators or college admissions officers. A more likely explanation is that the labor markets reward women with relatively higher financial returns to college enrollment.
For my case at least I'd agree that video games, and the increased amount of entertainment more generally, are the biggest reasons I'm not very interested in a relationship. I did succeed at attaining higher education and a white collar job though. I just don't mind spending tons of time alone.
I doubt that matters. There were barely any women in my classes at a school with a mostly female student body. Now that I work in software, at a company which requires at least bachelor's degree, there are still very few women developers employed here.
Hear me out. But maybe guys have discovered what women haven't. That higher education isn't the be all and end all to social status except to others who seek or have it. I have many friends who started working right out of high school in the trades. Now we have MOOCs, bootcamps, trades, and certifications. And the value of locking yourself out of the job market for 4 years while and paying 100s of thousands of dollars just doesn't feel as smart financially as it used to.
Every time I see one of these threads, there's always a bunch of baggage in the comments. There's also a bunch of stereotyping I see, e.g. men "preferring" hookup culture
Also on top of this, whenever there's talk about a so called "masculinity crisis", there's a bunch of tacit demands on how other people should live. This is regardless of whichever political camp the talk originates from
It's gotten to a point that whenever I figure out a discussion or article is "directed" at men, I stop reading because I already know it's going to start telling me what I "need" to care about as a man
I'm honestly fed up with it at this point. If someone has something to say to me as a person, go ahead. But if someone has something to say to me as a man, I'd prefer it if they'd take their bullshit elsewhere
This problem seems statistically unsolvable unless people make vast behavioral changes.
The education gap will not be closed, it might even grow further apart. A significant amount of men will continue to work in blue collar jobs and thus will never meet the standards of being highly educated and/or wealthy. There's exceptions, some are making a killing, but on average not really. To make matters worse, there's a growing political gap between blue collar men and white collar women.
Another portion of "lost" men are described in the article as the unemployed gamers. A portion of them might be incels. The main thing to understand about this group is that even if they do better themselves, it's still not going to be a match. Because quite likely they're socially awkward and physically unattractive, struggle to socialize and make friends.
Bottom line, the popular phrase "men should step up" isn't going to work out. You're waiting for something that simply isn't going to happen. You can make of that situation what you want: opt-out and don't compromise on your standards, or deal with the cards given.
My advise: look for character in a person. The obsession with status, education and wealth is inhumane, superficial and greatly self-limiting. Character lasts. If a person is structurally kind, responsible, reliable and has a steady job, who gives a shit about anything else? Combined with your own "educated" income, it would be plenty to run a family. Why price yourself out of the market with steep financial demands? For additional luxury? A bigger house? One you never attend as you're always at work? Get real.
The article omits the male preference for younger women and that the majority of couples are of an older male and a younger female. This is extremely relevant to the analysis.
This article points out what is probably real friction from shifting mores but seems mainly preoccupied with implying that a return to more conservative values around women's role in society would be called for.
What I feel is needed is to understand what the fundamentals are and how those things could be achieved in a society that is also compatible with human freedom. Most of the problems described in this article stem from a totally artificial "bundling" of companionship, sexual satisfaction, child-rearing, economic support, and intellectual stimulation into a singular person who not only is expected to satisfy these needs for you (and sometimes fails), but often prevents you from satisfying those needs with other people.
So of course finding "Mr. or Mrs. Right" becomes existential, and of course we turn to dependable sources of entertainment as the anxiety of picking the "right" life mate prevents any of us from actually committing to anything. But with some creativity we can think of actual escape routes from this dynamic that don't require a return to treating women as property, like supporting single child-rearing, allowing people to form mutual support structures with friends or family, detaching self-worth from relationship status, a further liberalization of sexual mores, expanding economic safety nets, and so on and so forth.
Remember Japan. People just don’t need each other anymore. They are good alone - in gaming, leisure or travelling. More and more businesses are switching to single-oriented service.
While the article offers nothing of value outside of its provocative title (but I clicked so I guess it works), I’m genuinely fascinated by why every article about dating here leads to such a slew of poor comments. I mean the discussion is full of entitlement, misogyny, cynicism or a mix of the three.
A casual reading lends me to think that this is because this place skews rather young.
Im not sure given the information from (my non - American) environment.
1.) I sometimes talk with young woman about this topic. A few mentioned who are ambitious and do wish having kids start to think about getting a house man as a father. Also when I mentioned this studies some women complain that man prefer women with lower earnings...
We know that prestige, earning much etc. is a big thing in US. These observations should be checked and I think, only one mentioned study did it.
2.) The explanation with video games is very narrow. We know, that school teachers in high developed countries tend to prefer girls.
3.) Well I see myself as counter example. Though high educated I do have a lack of money as a long term CS student (well, a thing in Germany :D ) Though I have "manly" hobbies (sailing, techno clubbing, networking in mainly manly enviroments) it is not I have lack of interested women. Maybe, because I dont live in America.
The first line was all I needed to know. “Oh he doesn’t got to Yale? He’s out!”
Online dating has is enumerating the qualities we think our ideal mate will have. We think that if we tick the boxes of what we like we can save time. Then we complain that there aren’t enough candidates! But this process eliminates people who might be an awesome fit because they don’t match some arbitrary metric.
My favorite is must be 6’ or taller. Seriously? You think you could never love someone who’s five foot eleven and a half? If you have criteria like that and can’t find anyone to date I don’t feel sorry for you. But I do have some advice. Put down your list and go meet people. You’ll be blown away by how unexpectedly you like or just click with the oddest assortment.
it seems like society has engineered itself into a real pickle as evidenced by all the hand-wringing articles on this topic.
personally i find serious relationships to be a giant waste of time, probably because i'm no good at maintaining them or i just don't check all the boxes, or whatever. i like dating and commitment-free sex, so i really don't have much incentive to improve. i'm basically financially independent so i don't really care about paying for things most people would split. in the few instances i've sincerely tried to keep it going, it ended after no particular incident/fight/whatever. just fizzled out, or a non-dramatic breakup over text message, which doesn't really bother me. these things come and go and i have no real hangups about attachment or have any dependence issues.
personally i think there is no "fixing" this, at least for 20 or 30 years until a brand new generational cohort come into their 20s and 30s. non-immigrants are simply just going to get married less and have less children than were historically 'normal'.
[+] [-] mediaserf|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] friend_and_foe|2 years ago|reply
First, lets get one thing straight: dysfunction in the dating world negatively affects both men and women. So framing it as "men floundering, women most affected" is disingenuous. What is it about the prospects a man has that he has no desire to become desirable? If men's lives are less rewarding wouldn't it be them, not the women, that are the most affected? We are talking about these mens lives after all.
"They just want to play videogames" come on. This has got to be the most surface level trope quality take I've seen. Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that. Maybe men prefer casual sex because that's about the best they can hope for in today's world. Maybe with the divorce rate what it is, the birth rate low, and the social stigma against division of labor to maintain a household, it's not worth it to meet anyone's expectations anymore. Maybe men do desire more and maybe women aren't interested in satisfying those desires either.
[+] [-] dahwolf|2 years ago|reply
Popular culture has become structurally anti-male. The ease at which we're described as simplistic, violent, sexual addicts doesn't seem to surprise anyone anymore.
This article almost makes a humanitarian problem out of a luxury problem: highly educated women unable to find somebody even richer than them.
[+] [-] timeagain|2 years ago|reply
My 2c as a gay man that has many women as friends. They aren’t looking for “status” they are looking for someone who is emotionally intelligent. And thinking that gaining status is how to gain women is pretty much the opposite of that.
Patriarchy hurts both sexes. By thinking of status and power as avenues to sex you stunt your ability to connect with others. And it sets up a negative dynamic because if gaining power is the goal then having an egalitarian relationship with your lover is not possible.
> Maybe men use porn and play videogames not because they'd rather have that than a real relationship, but because modern relationships don't offer much more than that.
If you think that lowly of women, why would they spend any time with you at all?
[+] [-] visihuge|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] monksy|2 years ago|reply
Funny thing about that, it's women (for hetros) that are the determination of what is 'desirable'. As a man, I agree with a lot of those who are discouraged with dating and running through the unwinnable rat race.
[+] [-] midoridensha|2 years ago|reply
When exactly have relations ever offered much more than that, realistically? Relationships have always (since love marriages became common at least, which is actually relatively recent, historically) offered some rosy vision of love and affection and family and all that, but in reality, only a minority of marriages actually succeeded in having a happy couple without a lot of dysfunction. Unhappy couples were normal in days gone by.
The divorce rate is only high because it's now acceptable to divorce, so unhappy people aren't staying in bad marriages any more. And lately, the divorce rate is falling because people simply aren't getting married as much, and more people are instead avoiding getting into a bad marriage in the first place, unlike their parents and grandparents.
If two people can find true long-term love and affection in a relationship, that's really great. But let's stop pretending that this was ever the norm. It wasn't.
[+] [-] chrisco255|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duxup|2 years ago|reply
Is it a trope?
The article goes on to explain that they found men less willing to exchange leisure time for other activities.
It’s not just a one off line with no explanation.
[+] [-] chad1n|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hfhdjdks|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vpastore|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] lo_zamoyski|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] pizzafeelsright|2 years ago|reply
I no longer discuss anything related to gender, relationships, or personal life dynamics with anyone outside of my bubble. I would enjoy the conversation, learning about another's ideas and understanding although despite assurances of maturity and openness conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements.
I do not believe ideas and ideals can be discussed with the general public.
[+] [-] y-c-o-m-b|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throw10920|2 years ago|reply
> I do not believe ideas and ideals can be discussed with the general public.
Although most cultures have always had at least some small set of "taboos" for which this was true, I believe that we're in times where that set is especially large, or at least it is for the above groups of people.
[+] [-] sho_hn|2 years ago|reply
Over here in Europe, we have these discussions all the time. They do get opinionated, of course. But it's not yet taboo.
[+] [-] maxsilver|2 years ago|reply
Where are you? In the US, most of us still have these conversations about gender, relationships, and life dynamics all the time. (If anything, this is arguably 70%+ of everything we talk about, among friends and acquaintances in the community).
> although despite assurances of maturity and openness conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements.
Is there a common thread here? Can you imagine what might prompt such a response?
[+] [-] majormajor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaomidi|2 years ago|reply
On the contrary, I love having these discussions.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] 908B64B197|2 years ago|reply
It's also pointless to discuss them. People say all sorts of things, but then act completely differently!
[+] [-] hkt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rngname22|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] breischl|2 years ago|reply
If you're advertising flashy, high-spending lifestyle, that's who you'll attract. But the women who are looking for long-term stability will stay away. And vice versa.
Of course, if you want the not-high-spending women, you need to have something other than money and flashy lifestyle to offer. I think some guys get hung up there.
[+] [-] hammock|2 years ago|reply
Put another way, women aren’t attracted by men who earn a lot, but by men who spend a lot
[+] [-] sho_hn|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grepLeigh|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drooby|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] talldatethrow|2 years ago|reply
The main takeaway I see from relationships is that I'm expected to give, understand, listen, and bend to be some perfect modern man. I need to be beyond financially stable, I need to be tough, but also have some romantic comedy movie side of me. And she's expected to technically not sleep with anyone else but also I'm not allowed to think about that at all even or I'm insecure.
Whenever I start dating a woman, even if she has a good job, I feel like I'm taking on a dependent. Which would technically be fine, if I was appreciated for it. But I'm not. I'm basically chastised if I even notice that I'm giving a lot. "What, youre giving a lot? This is a lot? You must not be as good as I thought you were if this is a noticeable amount of giving to you". I'm not talking about just money. It's everything.
I can summarize my main problem with relationships via this old joke: Q: What do women want? A: More.
And that's why I won't marry and more and more won't date. I have a big enough collection of previous partners that calls me every time their bfs act up or bore them or disappoint them. Another reason to stay away from them.
[+] [-] redmerchant2|2 years ago|reply
Let’s be clear we’re talking about general behavioral trend, not trying to police an individual, which is the crux of contention for these topics.
Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true.
The education gap between men and women are growing. More women enroll and graduate from college then men. Many young men, mostly lower-middle class, (whether fairly or not) feel like the education system does not work for them.
Society and companies are reconciling the barriers for women’s advancement and we’re only observing this initial gap. That is well and good. But in 10-20 years women will out number men in many fields requiring higher education.
The real problem arises when that clashes with traditional expectations. The women in the article is a successful Yale grad who wants a partner with better pedigree. If you include looks and height requirements her dating pool is like <0.01% of the population. As that cascades to women in general with college education refusing to consider men in trade, that mismatch grows wider.
The implication of the dating “market” not being able to match buyers and sellers would have some interesting dynamics.
[+] [-] thowaway6060|2 years ago|reply
I am on pretty much every app, except Tinder (Bumble, Hinge, okcupid, pof and even muzmatch (im south asian)). I have a bachelors, and I make good money. I've been told that I am a decent looking guy and I have quite a few hobbies. It's easy for me to make friends, so I don't think I fit the programmer stereotype.
I am on these apps with the explicit intention of finding a long term partner and I've made it clear, but it seems that >95% of people are there for flings, fwb or casual hookups.
I am starting to realize that dating apps are broken, if you are looking for a serious relationship - there's just no way you are going to find it on here.
The focus of the study has been on guys with higher education, and from what I've seen girls here are not that well educated. Perhaps this is a small city phenomenon (pop. 1.5 mil), but it's quite shocking to see this disparity (That's another topic).
Take this as you will, maybe it's just me venting or whatever, but it's tough out there and these apps are just not it.
[+] [-] keiferski|2 years ago|reply
It made me think that there must be a kind of cycle in human societies, where certain social values (like the ones mentioned in the article) are able to become popular for a short period of time (which can be over a century long) but ultimately have no ability to sustain themselves and then are outcompeted. The amount of “defectors” isn’t enough to sustain the population.
Given how difficult it seems for any genuinely universal cultural movement to take off in the dating space, it seems to me like a similar thing will happen over the course of the 21st and 22nd centuries.
[+] [-] politician|2 years ago|reply
I would be curious to see how the effect of video games stacks up against the effect of the significant support industry established for helping girls succeed in STEM while comparable support for boys is nonexistent.
[+] [-] cultofmetatron|2 years ago|reply
The state of the current education system is outright hostility towards boys. feminists (specifically third wave) long ago, infiltrated k-12 and shove their ideology down little boys throats at every level. any overt show of masculinity is treated as toxic. I don't think a lot of this pride stuff being pushed by the mainstream media right now is about accepting lgbtqa+(and whomever else I'm probably missing) members of society. Its more about instilling feminine traits onto young boys. Since there are few male teachers, the boys without a strong father figure at home never get taught how to channel their masculine energy in a healthy way. It continues to university where all the programs are geared towards the advancement of women.
Its fairly unsurprising that incel culture has grown rampant given the massive scale of male disenfranchisment. I'm lucky to have been raised in a 2 parent household with a dad who gave a damn about making sure I had educational opportunities in life. many guys out there right now weren't so lucky.
Now we're teetering towards a system where a lot of men have simply been left behind. its a recipe for societal collapse. Meanwhile we can't even build a simple high speed rail line or critical infrastructure. I fear for the future and I'm not really sure what the way out is.
[+] [-] anonymouskimmer|2 years ago|reply
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2021/11/08/whats-beh...
> Men are more likely than women to point to factors that have more to do with personal choice. Roughly a third (34%) of men without a bachelor’s degree say a major reason they didn’t complete college is that they just didn’t want to. Only one-in-four women say the same. Non-college-educated men are also more likely than their female counterparts to say a major reason they don’t have a four-year degree is that they didn’t need more education for the job or career they wanted (26% of men say this vs. 20% of women).
> Women (44%) are more likely than men (39%) to say not being able to afford college is a major reason they don’t have a bachelor’s degree. Men and women are about equally likely to say needing to work to help support their family was a major impediment.
> In some instances, the gender gaps in the reasons for not completing college are more pronounced among White adults than among Black or Hispanic adults. About four-in-ten White men who didn’t complete four years of college (39%) say a major reason for this is that they just didn’t want to. This compares with 27% of White women without a degree. Views on this don’t differ significantly by gender for Black or Hispanic adults.
https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2022/mar/why-women...
> In this blog post, we argue against these explanations, showing it is unlikely that the gender gap in college attendance reflects some sort of failure on the part of educators or college admissions officers. A more likely explanation is that the labor markets reward women with relatively higher financial returns to college enrollment.
[+] [-] HDThoreaun|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AS37|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Conscat|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yardie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] testacct22|2 years ago|reply
Also on top of this, whenever there's talk about a so called "masculinity crisis", there's a bunch of tacit demands on how other people should live. This is regardless of whichever political camp the talk originates from
It's gotten to a point that whenever I figure out a discussion or article is "directed" at men, I stop reading because I already know it's going to start telling me what I "need" to care about as a man
I'm honestly fed up with it at this point. If someone has something to say to me as a person, go ahead. But if someone has something to say to me as a man, I'd prefer it if they'd take their bullshit elsewhere
[+] [-] dahwolf|2 years ago|reply
The education gap will not be closed, it might even grow further apart. A significant amount of men will continue to work in blue collar jobs and thus will never meet the standards of being highly educated and/or wealthy. There's exceptions, some are making a killing, but on average not really. To make matters worse, there's a growing political gap between blue collar men and white collar women.
Another portion of "lost" men are described in the article as the unemployed gamers. A portion of them might be incels. The main thing to understand about this group is that even if they do better themselves, it's still not going to be a match. Because quite likely they're socially awkward and physically unattractive, struggle to socialize and make friends.
Bottom line, the popular phrase "men should step up" isn't going to work out. You're waiting for something that simply isn't going to happen. You can make of that situation what you want: opt-out and don't compromise on your standards, or deal with the cards given.
My advise: look for character in a person. The obsession with status, education and wealth is inhumane, superficial and greatly self-limiting. Character lasts. If a person is structurally kind, responsible, reliable and has a steady job, who gives a shit about anything else? Combined with your own "educated" income, it would be plenty to run a family. Why price yourself out of the market with steep financial demands? For additional luxury? A bigger house? One you never attend as you're always at work? Get real.
[+] [-] randunel|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lsy|2 years ago|reply
What I feel is needed is to understand what the fundamentals are and how those things could be achieved in a society that is also compatible with human freedom. Most of the problems described in this article stem from a totally artificial "bundling" of companionship, sexual satisfaction, child-rearing, economic support, and intellectual stimulation into a singular person who not only is expected to satisfy these needs for you (and sometimes fails), but often prevents you from satisfying those needs with other people.
So of course finding "Mr. or Mrs. Right" becomes existential, and of course we turn to dependable sources of entertainment as the anxiety of picking the "right" life mate prevents any of us from actually committing to anything. But with some creativity we can think of actual escape routes from this dynamic that don't require a return to treating women as property, like supporting single child-rearing, allowing people to form mutual support structures with friends or family, detaching self-worth from relationship status, a further liberalization of sexual mores, expanding economic safety nets, and so on and so forth.
[+] [-] nokeya|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WastingMyTime89|2 years ago|reply
A casual reading lends me to think that this is because this place skews rather young.
[+] [-] snowpid|2 years ago|reply
1.) I sometimes talk with young woman about this topic. A few mentioned who are ambitious and do wish having kids start to think about getting a house man as a father. Also when I mentioned this studies some women complain that man prefer women with lower earnings... We know that prestige, earning much etc. is a big thing in US. These observations should be checked and I think, only one mentioned study did it.
2.) The explanation with video games is very narrow. We know, that school teachers in high developed countries tend to prefer girls.
3.) Well I see myself as counter example. Though high educated I do have a lack of money as a long term CS student (well, a thing in Germany :D ) Though I have "manly" hobbies (sailing, techno clubbing, networking in mainly manly enviroments) it is not I have lack of interested women. Maybe, because I dont live in America.
[+] [-] more_corn|2 years ago|reply
Online dating has is enumerating the qualities we think our ideal mate will have. We think that if we tick the boxes of what we like we can save time. Then we complain that there aren’t enough candidates! But this process eliminates people who might be an awesome fit because they don’t match some arbitrary metric.
My favorite is must be 6’ or taller. Seriously? You think you could never love someone who’s five foot eleven and a half? If you have criteria like that and can’t find anyone to date I don’t feel sorry for you. But I do have some advice. Put down your list and go meet people. You’ll be blown away by how unexpectedly you like or just click with the oddest assortment.
[+] [-] inconceivable|2 years ago|reply
personally i find serious relationships to be a giant waste of time, probably because i'm no good at maintaining them or i just don't check all the boxes, or whatever. i like dating and commitment-free sex, so i really don't have much incentive to improve. i'm basically financially independent so i don't really care about paying for things most people would split. in the few instances i've sincerely tried to keep it going, it ended after no particular incident/fight/whatever. just fizzled out, or a non-dramatic breakup over text message, which doesn't really bother me. these things come and go and i have no real hangups about attachment or have any dependence issues.
personally i think there is no "fixing" this, at least for 20 or 30 years until a brand new generational cohort come into their 20s and 30s. non-immigrants are simply just going to get married less and have less children than were historically 'normal'.
[+] [-] oj2828|2 years ago|reply