If the blackout is only for two days then they're right, but if they continue indefinitely it could force a change (reddit is currently unusable since all but one sub I enjoy is gone, if it was gone indefinitely then reddit would be indefinitely out of the picture for me).
> If the blackout is only for two days then they're right
Yeah... I don't know the tradeoffs at play but 2 days is... extremely insignificant / probably a bad decision by all of the moderators? It sends a message sure but, it's a bunch of "whiny reddit mods" versus C-level executives in a "help us make API more affordable versus help us not lose a ton of money offering generous free API hosting/usage" negotiation.
How does the CEO + team not just ignore this two day spat? They are in the business of making money. Why should they foot the bill for the API calls? So they have to crack down on some 3rd party apps we all took for granted and kill a few apps off. Sucks but at the end of the day, will it really matter in 6 months?
Now, blackout for a week or two weeks to really hurt their ad revenue traffic, sure
The only thing they care about is bottom line, and this, "Huffman says the blackout hasn’t had “significant revenue impact”," is key.
To lose 95.8% of your site (judged by the 8467 out of 8838 subreddits gone dark) and not have a revenue impact at all raises some questions, primarily if there are any revenue streams based on usage, or only on monthly subscriptions and non-view-based ad contracts?
Extending the blackout indefinitely has now become a coordinated action via /r/ModCoord (which is the also the source of the list of blacked out subreddits that people are using), with an optional "solidarity mode" that involves blacking out one day a week in perpetuity (which they're calling "Touch Grass Tuesdays"): https://old.reddit.com/r/ModCoord/comments/148ks6u/indefinit...
From Reddit's perspective overall this is a terrible idea, but from Huffman's perspective it's purely rational. If he has to walk this back it's probably not compatible with his continued tenure after all, the question of why this was done so hastily and rudely would inevitably undermine his leadership. If he just barrels ahead though, and prays that the addictions of mods and users are greater than their pride/desire to have a functional site, then he can possibly survive.
It's not as though there's a third choice, he can't realistically get rid of the mods and replace them, then expect that to not blow up in his face. He can't walk this back, and he's doubled down on libeling the dev of Apollo for example. "Stay the course and hope everyone just gets over it" is his best option, having already sunk into the quicksand.
I wonder how many of the people coordinating the blackout sent the "challenge accepted" meme to one another, on reading this quote. It was sure the first thing that popped into my head, on reading it.
One of the fun things about reddit is that if mods decide to extend it indefinitely, users are free to create their own subreddits and move their conversations there. Any mod who thinks they're ultimately important in the grand scheme of things is deluding themselves.
Reddit CEO's fragile ego was hurt during the AMA and his personal account was downvoted into oblivion. All he had to do was keep his mouth shut and tank a couple of news cycles of bad press.
This 2 day moratorium is now much more likely to become a multi-week protest/blackout. Reddit board should look at issuing a "no confidence" vote on this guy.
> I am sorry to say this, but please be mindful of wearing Reddit gear in public. Some folks are really upset, and we don’t want you to be the object of their frustrations.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss, external popularity can paint a target on your back for 0.000x% of people (which, of course is infinitesimal but non-zero).
I myself have been harrassed for wearing local game studio garb because our games are "violent" and we have "problems with violence" in the city.
The game was a vampire fantasy battle royale, so not exactly a realistic depiction of gun crime- people who feel vindicated to act a certain way will do so without shame or impunity. Best to not give them anything to cling to.
I don't understand why reddit didn't respond to the initial criticism by decreasing the pricing/demands and just slowly implementing what they want over time. Doing it all at once seemed like a silly move.
What I don't understand is why they simply don't do what spotify does. Free acounts have to use the official spotify apps but paid accounts can use third party apps and apis as part of their subscription benefits. I would gladly pay for reddit gold monthly if I got to keep using my ad-free 3rd party client of my choice.
It wasn't until they announced this that all the issues with accessibility came up either. They literally didn't think about it until now (because they didn't have to).
Also running a paid API service actually requires providing services to the third parties that are using them (like billing dashboards, etc).
I'm pretty sure they didn't really think this through entirely when they proposed it. Now that they kind of have a better idea of what they're getting into doubling down is just hubris.
I think they would’ve done that if they wanted to build Reddit more, but it seems like they’re betting on going public so the people that want to can take their exit.
Not so silly if they are sure they'll crush the opposition. If they are convinced the boycotts are powerless, then the sooner they demonstrate it, the better.
For me, the recent goings-on at Reddit have made me fully acknowledge that this is a fundamentally different Reddit from the one I first started visiting over a decade. Change is inevitable.
It therefore made it a surprisingly easy decision to uninstall the Reddit third-party apps (the devs who I am thankful to for making Reddit usable again) and I haven't missed it at all.
Louis Rossman was right about this in his video where he said "going dark for two days is actually saying the quiet part out loud, which is that you're willing to put up with this shit 363 days a year"
>Starting last night, about a thousand subreddits have gone private.
comforting to know he lies to his employees the same way he lies to would-be partners and users
reddark currently shows over 8000 subreddits as "dark" and that is under-counting. It uses the API to determine status, but only checks from a list of subs that notified of their plan to go dark.
There is sudden death and there is death by a thousand cuts.
The current social media scene is dead. But its going to be messy because of the network effects, the poisson adtech models etc.
I'd be really surprised if the known platforms can somehow reinvent themselves. They are hostage to the same mechanics that prevents others to do something better.
The problem isn't that no one can create a Reddit clone, the problem is that no one can scale like Reddit and do it at continuous loss just to be dominant
Tend to agree with your final thought. The web is so different than it was in 2010, yes there are some promising newcomers but our expectations of a service are radically different in 2023. Also want to note there seems to be a general sentiment of fatigue regarding Reddit and social media in general.
But I do want to selfishly drop this gem from the founder of digg on the eve of their destruction, which mirrors so closely the quote from this memo https://twitter.com/kevinrose/status/22543843421
I deleted my account - scrubbed all of my comments and content first - and I've always blocked ads on reddit anyway. A two day blackout won't do much unless it extends indefinitely, but actually hurt reddit in their bottom line and they might actually think twice.
As I predicted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36192312#36192983 they thing it's a blip on the radar and will soon pass and everybody would just consent to the new reality. The thought of their way not being the right way is not being considered and there would be no changes. They plan to just wait it out and count on redditors to fold and endure what they must. We'll see if they are right.
There was an idea floating around here about users downvoting en masse as a form of protest. While this could certainly disrupt the algorithm and content quality, it wouldn't require a massive participation. However, identifying and banning accounts engaged in systematic downvoting would be quite straightforward. A more subversive approach could be to invert the system - upvote low quality posts and downvote high quality ones.
Moved from Digg to Reddit back in the day. Used to love it, now it's more of a habit. Also, if you really look at it, it's just 9gag with extra's that I don't use. The way down is here, time for something new.
I've been trying mastodon but it doesn't scratch any itches, I just want to read other peoples comments and thoughts and learn from them. I actually don't even comment myself that much.
Mods aren’t paid, so no. There are mods based around commercial interests that might have some financial incentive—for example if you are an author and you moderate a subreddit for your books.
He's not wrong that it will pass. Getting to this stage was a big mistake but doubling down now seems viable to me. I don't see this as Reddit's Digg moment - but maybe I'm wrong. It's definitely a big bet.
I would love nothing more than if actual independent communities actually had to build and maintain their own internet spaces again. I do not miss the days of forums - but there has to be something between the two, right?
But... unfortunately the CEO is probably right. Reddit is first and foremost a community of addicts. No one is actually threatening to spin off their own superior community space. (The closest we see are people trying to make knockoff platforms). Unless 100 new websites spin up and take away all of the community content, the addicts will just come back.
[+] [-] TheFreim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MuffinFlavored|2 years ago|reply
Yeah... I don't know the tradeoffs at play but 2 days is... extremely insignificant / probably a bad decision by all of the moderators? It sends a message sure but, it's a bunch of "whiny reddit mods" versus C-level executives in a "help us make API more affordable versus help us not lose a ton of money offering generous free API hosting/usage" negotiation.
How does the CEO + team not just ignore this two day spat? They are in the business of making money. Why should they foot the bill for the API calls? So they have to crack down on some 3rd party apps we all took for granted and kill a few apps off. Sucks but at the end of the day, will it really matter in 6 months?
Now, blackout for a week or two weeks to really hurt their ad revenue traffic, sure
But 2 days?... lol
[+] [-] 98codes|2 years ago|reply
To lose 95.8% of your site (judged by the 8467 out of 8838 subreddits gone dark) and not have a revenue impact at all raises some questions, primarily if there are any revenue streams based on usage, or only on monthly subscriptions and non-view-based ad contracts?
[+] [-] minimaxir|2 years ago|reply
This seems adversarial.
[+] [-] kibwen|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EA-3167|2 years ago|reply
It's not as though there's a third choice, he can't realistically get rid of the mods and replace them, then expect that to not blow up in his face. He can't walk this back, and he's doubled down on libeling the dev of Apollo for example. "Stay the course and hope everyone just gets over it" is his best option, having already sunk into the quicksand.
IMO of course.
[+] [-] bamfly|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Krasnol|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MisterBastahrd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jtode|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xyst|2 years ago|reply
This 2 day moratorium is now much more likely to become a multi-week protest/blackout. Reddit board should look at issuing a "no confidence" vote on this guy.
[+] [-] willis936|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] activiation|2 years ago|reply
LoL
[+] [-] dijit|2 years ago|reply
I myself have been harrassed for wearing local game studio garb because our games are "violent" and we have "problems with violence" in the city.
The game was a vampire fantasy battle royale, so not exactly a realistic depiction of gun crime- people who feel vindicated to act a certain way will do so without shame or impunity. Best to not give them anything to cling to.
[+] [-] ortusdux|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] exitb|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tomjen3|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway202351|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kobalsky|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheFreim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AustinDev|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wvenable|2 years ago|reply
Also running a paid API service actually requires providing services to the third parties that are using them (like billing dashboards, etc).
I'm pretty sure they didn't really think this through entirely when they proposed it. Now that they kind of have a better idea of what they're getting into doubling down is just hubris.
[+] [-] graypegg|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xyst|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HDThoreaun|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] controlname|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ddtaylor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] predictabl3|2 years ago|reply
comforting to know he lies to his employees the same way he lies to would-be partners and users
reddark currently shows over 8000 subreddits as "dark" and that is under-counting. It uses the API to determine status, but only checks from a list of subs that notified of their plan to go dark.
[+] [-] QuarterRoy|2 years ago|reply
Many subs that didn’t go dark still seem to have plenty of participants and people need their digital crack.
I don’t see this being a digg moment for Reddit.
[+] [-] nologic01|2 years ago|reply
The current social media scene is dead. But its going to be messy because of the network effects, the poisson adtech models etc.
I'd be really surprised if the known platforms can somehow reinvent themselves. They are hostage to the same mechanics that prevents others to do something better.
[+] [-] ugjka|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angrydev|2 years ago|reply
But I do want to selfishly drop this gem from the founder of digg on the eve of their destruction, which mirrors so closely the quote from this memo https://twitter.com/kevinrose/status/22543843421
[+] [-] throwaway106382|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HatchedLake721|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mr_sturd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smsm42|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] machdiamonds|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neals|2 years ago|reply
I've been trying mastodon but it doesn't scratch any itches, I just want to read other peoples comments and thoughts and learn from them. I actually don't even comment myself that much.
[+] [-] sf4lifer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sarchertech|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anthonybsd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hopefulrabbit|2 years ago|reply
Am I the only one surprised how hard they are doubling down on this?
[+] [-] QuarterRoy|2 years ago|reply
Investors want their $ back out of Reddit
[+] [-] mvdtnz|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Havoc|2 years ago|reply
>The peasants are restless but don't worry they throw tantrums often and have short memories. Fuck 'em cause advertising money is still rolling in
Also quite amused that he thinks a couple of mod tool improvements are the solution.
[+] [-] legitster|2 years ago|reply
But... unfortunately the CEO is probably right. Reddit is first and foremost a community of addicts. No one is actually threatening to spin off their own superior community space. (The closest we see are people trying to make knockoff platforms). Unless 100 new websites spin up and take away all of the community content, the addicts will just come back.
[+] [-] pseudalopex|2 years ago|reply