The most troubling thing about this to me is Stockton Rush’s cavalier attitude toward ageism [1]. In considering young college graduates as uniquely “inspirational” he set them up for a lifetime of guilt. I don’t think age or race has any place in inspirational calculus. I’m uncomfortable with how comfortably he dismisses submariner veterans as “old white guys”.
Engineering is a discipline that requires experience and guidance. The young learn from the old. In this case accomplished engineers missed a chance to do rewarding work with young engineers and young engineers have to live with the guilt of killing their crew.
This is a lesson the entire tech industry would do well to meditate on. Especially when we call ourselves engineers.
And yet despite the naivety of their youth, his engineers still spoke out against his contraption and were fired. I don’t think an old man in the room would have helped.
In a discussion with a work colleague, we agreed on the hope that out of this incident comes an increase in respect for "proper" engineering, maintenance, safety considerations; don't just remove Chesterton's fence because it's your way - it's in your way to slow you down and force you to look at something other than the obvious.
Anyone remembers the Boeing MAX 8 issues? Safety procedures / processes had been disabled on purpose for greed and people eventually died as a result. History has a truckload of examples in that direction, also because, despite better knowledge, proactively trying to prevent problems is often seen as some expense that is not needed ... until something happens and then the blame shifting starts.
At least in this case the perpetrator was eating his own dog food and choked on it. Good riddance. Unfortunately, and yet again, others had to suffer (and some do for having lost family / friends) for this incompetence as well. But there will be no learning process, the amount of people like him is just too vast and they are too dense in their heads to face reality for what it is because they are just too used to "bending reality" to their will. That works with people (up to a certain degree), but when it comes to physics, there is a hard wall they will crack their skulls open.
What really bothers me about the coverage of this, and I'm not totally anti media etc, was that nobody mentioned on the fact that the tracking system lost contact also.
It was only mentioned that the communications was lost, if there had of been media mentioning that the tracking device also lost contact, I think a lot of people would have recognised straight await that it was a critical collapse. No deep gauge device loses
contact from distances <4000M unless it was exploded.
I feel bad for the families given some false hope, I didn't personally think they would be found, but did believe they were suffering a far worse way to go.
More than that, one report mentioned the US Navy notified the search teams that they heard an explosion Sunday night and used it to limit the search area.
The US Navy has literally has experience detecting underwater explosions (see project Azorian). It's not guaranteed of course, but any loud sound near the point of contact loss seems pretty open shut.
Imo, it made a more interesting story in a slow news cycle. How many people died in car accidents the last few days? Has to be more than 5.
Can you expand? To a layman like myself, tracking is part of communications and it seemed clear there was no tracking because they didn't know where the sub was.
What is the specific type of tracking device you're referring to? What signals does it emit? And if overall power was lost, for example, why wouldn't the tracking stop just like communications stopped?
Based on accounts of previous voyages it didn't sound like it had a tracking system. They relied on text communication with a ship topside for navigation (and got lost for several hours on a past voyage - while still in communication with the operators).
> I feel bad for the families given some false hope
And for the general public. The headlines I saw implied that they were hearing sounds and these people could be rescued. Turns out it was a lost cause from the get go.
I just saw an interview with James Cameron about the incident and he said from the info he had it was clear that the vessel suffered a catastrophic implosion. He says he stayed silent on the matter because it wasn't his place to say anything contrary to what the search teams were saying, but he was upset that the families were being given false hope.
And I certainly agree that it was terrible for the search team to manage to both give the families hope and make them even more worried at the idea of their loved ones suffering.
I just watched the James Cameron clip and he mentioned that he heard on Monday that both were lost simultaneously. For those that don't know, the tracking system runs in its own environment with its own battery, so if both are lost then that means its 99% an implosion.
He also mentioned that they reached out to civ/military nets and confirmed the noise event.
The cynic in me whispers that the alphabet media were told what really happened, but said, wait a minute... We can milk this. Here's the narrative for the next few days...
Besides the "what about this other accident with 500 victims!!!", "these people are dumb", and the "look how they ignored safety!" comments, I can't help but be amazed at how events like this make people crawl out of the woodworks spouting complete falsities as if they're facts. I've seen so many boneheaded comments over the last few days that I don't even know how to list all of them out, from people saying that Titanic is "relatively shallow" in the ocean, to people speculating that the passengers may have drowned as opposed to being /literally/ instantly vaporized. I think, per usual, this whole event has gone to show just how quickly (some) people assume an authoritative position in areas they have absolutely no expertise or knowledge about. Rant over.
> OceanGate’s submersibles are the only known vessels to use real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring. With this RTM system, we can determine if the hull is compromised well before situations become life-threatening, and safely return to the surface. This innovative safety system is not currently covered by any classing agency.
Given that Stockton Rush risked and lost his own life, he must have believed these words. He ignored pleas from others in the industry that what he was doing was unsafe. What was he thinking?
Real-world training for the newbies, exercise for the journeymen, and teaching moments for the experts. That alone is worth my tax dollars for keeping a robust search and rescue force.
At least some of the CEO's estate should go to paying for it, but pay out to victims' families first.
I think there is value in living in the kind of society where you know that if you are lost at sea there will be arguably irrational levels of resources thrown into trying to find you. And not just the rich either, no matter what Twitter would have you believe.
There's more to be said, but I'd say the training experience in a real-world situation alone is probably valuable. Helps identify actual stress points in the rescue process, for example.
As someone who isn't very reckless, if I'm ever in trouble I'd love if people would search for me without trying to debate exactly how reckless I was being.
Then recoup what you can from me or my estate if you determine I was reckless after the fact, when you have plenty of time to evaluate the facts.
Here in the alps, if you have an injury hiking and need a helicopter ride then you are required to pay for the ride (normally a few thousand euros). I assume it's the same if you're lost.
What's your definition of reckless? Were the boys stuck in the cave in Thailand reckless? Should we not have rescued them? Where is the line of who is deserving of our sympathy?
The most likely first failure is the window. At that instant a rapid turbulent fill event would occur. The outside pressure and the hole diameter will provide a calculable interval for the internal volume to fill. At 12,000 feet = 800 atmospheres, this would be on the order of 1/20th of a second, with intense crush/shear forces = instant death as perceived. That interval can be related to the speed of sound and wavelength to make a variable frequency 'chirp' that would be of low to higher frequency. The low frequency would be in the low hertz as an estimate. At the same time inner pressure and temperature would rise to 800 atmospheres and a temperature a little above ambient. The density of water is around 800 times that of air = 800 times the weight of water would enter compared to the weight of the air within. Local temperature would prevail, increased a little by the work of compression of that air to higher pressure(quite high in concept, but quenched by 800 x mass of water.
Thus the sound will not be very loud or high in frequency.
A sphere of C4 will make a compression wave at somewhere over 500,000 atmosphere propagating at about 4000 meters/second = fourier square wave containing all the odd order harmonics all the way down = heard round the world. Any transient inrush plasma would be swamped and mixed with cold water = transient and of little consequence.
Banging? One would hope nobody would dare bang the window, but it is conceivable they might have banged the hull in desperation if the window did not crack to attract attention? Did the noise cease at some point? or is the noise still hearable = not them?
This is a very interesting comment. You seem to have a firm grasp on the physics of this situation. Out of curiosity, beyond common sense, does adding pressure internally on something with a significant load of external pressure create a compounding/exponential amount of force/pressure on the material overall?
What I don't understand is, if it imploded, why didn't the boat hear the implosion? Surely that would be really loud. Louder than the 15 min audio ping that the boat is normally listening for.
If it did implode in multiple pieces it means the experts were right; many said that carbon fiber was a poor choice because while it's light, it breaks like glass, contrary to steel which tends to "open" slowly.
Tragic result, just as it were for the Titanic. The parallels between the hubris of what was said about each craft's capabilities, to the outcomes of blindly believing in it, down to even the irony in the names "Titanic" and "Titan" seems sadly poetic. Rest in peace.
I wonder if U.S. agencies (e.g. the Navy) had picked up the sound of the implosion days ago, back when the Titan was said to have lost communication, and knew all this time that the Titan had likely already been destroyed. But there's no incentive for them to publicly say anything, as it would hint to their underwater surveillance capabilities. And the "rescue effort" is good practice for their crews.
I watched most of the press conferences and don't think I heard anyone ask about it. But hearing loud noises across thousands of miles is certainly within the U.S. military's capability.
Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0]
My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan.
He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment.
Please remember that, for some members of the HN community, this one hits close to home.
Lots of talk about carbon fiber, ofc. But also seems relevant that that this seems to be one of the only (or truly the only?) deep sea submersibles with a non-spherical personnel chamber.
Does anyone know if they had any “deep-sea” or “submersible” cameras recording the expedition and can recover those cameras/footage to help in knowing what happened?
I can't help but thinking about how tempting it must be for a person who is willing to end their life to perish in an blink of an eye (Germanwings Flight 9525 comes to mind).
I also wonder if it was the ideal place for Mr.Titanic to rest his bones. He surely was used to having a small gun on his numerous subsea expeditions in order to avoid a miserable end in case of being trapped. Maybe that was indeed the perfect plan after an adventurous life like his certainly was.
Not wanting to come off as impious. However, I know I am..
[+] [-] mulmen|2 years ago|reply
Engineering is a discipline that requires experience and guidance. The young learn from the old. In this case accomplished engineers missed a chance to do rewarding work with young engineers and young engineers have to live with the guilt of killing their crew.
This is a lesson the entire tech industry would do well to meditate on. Especially when we call ourselves engineers.
[1]: https://youtu.be/4dka29FSZac&t=5m2s
[+] [-] crossroadsguy|2 years ago|reply
In engineering experience and precision and discipline matters a lot.
OTOH I hope he still is alive somewhere somehow down there and gets rescued, but he does speak like a douchustler.
[+] [-] thom|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Dalewyn|2 years ago|reply
This is a lesson everyone in the business of making things would do well to meditate on.
Age and skin color, let alone sex, don't a good product make. It's whether the people involved have what it takes to make a good product.
OceanGate clearly did not have what it takes, even if they did check all the proper identity boxes.
[+] [-] jnsaff2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BLKNSLVR|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pixelfarmer|2 years ago|reply
Anyone remembers the Boeing MAX 8 issues? Safety procedures / processes had been disabled on purpose for greed and people eventually died as a result. History has a truckload of examples in that direction, also because, despite better knowledge, proactively trying to prevent problems is often seen as some expense that is not needed ... until something happens and then the blame shifting starts.
At least in this case the perpetrator was eating his own dog food and choked on it. Good riddance. Unfortunately, and yet again, others had to suffer (and some do for having lost family / friends) for this incompetence as well. But there will be no learning process, the amount of people like him is just too vast and they are too dense in their heads to face reality for what it is because they are just too used to "bending reality" to their will. That works with people (up to a certain degree), but when it comes to physics, there is a hard wall they will crack their skulls open.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] DonHopkins|2 years ago|reply
Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness':
https://news.yahoo.com/conservatives-now-blaming-titanic-sub...
[+] [-] whatscooking|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bilekas|2 years ago|reply
It was only mentioned that the communications was lost, if there had of been media mentioning that the tracking device also lost contact, I think a lot of people would have recognised straight await that it was a critical collapse. No deep gauge device loses contact from distances <4000M unless it was exploded.
I feel bad for the families given some false hope, I didn't personally think they would be found, but did believe they were suffering a far worse way to go.
[+] [-] ApolloFortyNine|2 years ago|reply
The US Navy has literally has experience detecting underwater explosions (see project Azorian). It's not guaranteed of course, but any loud sound near the point of contact loss seems pretty open shut.
Imo, it made a more interesting story in a slow news cycle. How many people died in car accidents the last few days? Has to be more than 5.
[+] [-] crazygringo|2 years ago|reply
What is the specific type of tracking device you're referring to? What signals does it emit? And if overall power was lost, for example, why wouldn't the tracking stop just like communications stopped?
[+] [-] mattacular|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goodbyesf|2 years ago|reply
And for the general public. The headlines I saw implied that they were hearing sounds and these people could be rescued. Turns out it was a lost cause from the get go.
[+] [-] ziml77|2 years ago|reply
And I certainly agree that it was terrible for the search team to manage to both give the families hope and make them even more worried at the idea of their loved ones suffering.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] animal531|2 years ago|reply
He also mentioned that they reached out to civ/military nets and confirmed the noise event.
[+] [-] EdwardDiego|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bradstewart|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] YLYvYkHeB2NRNT|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] methodical|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] js2|2 years ago|reply
Given that Stockton Rush risked and lost his own life, he must have believed these words. He ignored pleas from others in the industry that what he was doing was unsafe. What was he thinking?
https://archive.ph/yBrpk
[+] [-] accrual|2 years ago|reply
> "debris is consistent with a catastrophic implosion of the vessel"
> "1600 feet (487 meters) from the wreck of the Titanic"
> "it is a smooth bottom", "there is no wreckage of the Titanic in the area"
> "size of the debris field is consistent with an implosion in the water column"
> "there doesn't seem to be any connection between the noises and the location of the debris on the seafloor"
[+] [-] lamontcg|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hawk_|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vsareto|2 years ago|reply
At least some of the CEO's estate should go to paying for it, but pay out to victims' families first.
[+] [-] sebzim4500|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheFreim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carbine|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] furyofantares|2 years ago|reply
Then recoup what you can from me or my estate if you determine I was reckless after the fact, when you have plenty of time to evaluate the facts.
[+] [-] troppl|2 years ago|reply
Here in the alps, if you have an injury hiking and need a helicopter ride then you are required to pay for the ride (normally a few thousand euros). I assume it's the same if you're lost.
And I would assume it's the same on high sea...
[+] [-] jb12|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mycentstoo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mock-possum|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aurizon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rootusrootus|2 years ago|reply
A bit under 400 atmospheres at the depth of the Titanic. But I don't think that meaningfully changes your conclusion. It's instant.
[+] [-] kubectl_h|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SirMaster|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bambax|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jameslk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikeyouse|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] activiation|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ClassicOrgin|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somedangedname|2 years ago|reply
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4dka29FSZac
[+] [-] danso|2 years ago|reply
I watched most of the press conferences and don't think I heard anyone ask about it. But hearing loud noises across thousands of miles is certainly within the U.S. military's capability.
[+] [-] seattle_anon|2 years ago|reply
My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan.
He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment.
Please remember that, for some members of the HN community, this one hits close to home.
[0] Talk at last year's GeekWire Summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGpjEDc96I
[+] [-] carbine|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JennaDawn20|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nakedneuron|2 years ago|reply
I also wonder if it was the ideal place for Mr.Titanic to rest his bones. He surely was used to having a small gun on his numerous subsea expeditions in order to avoid a miserable end in case of being trapped. Maybe that was indeed the perfect plan after an adventurous life like his certainly was.
Not wanting to come off as impious. However, I know I am..
Also some inspirational title... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wreck_of_the_Titan:_Or,_Fu... His wife died some years ago.