I think this is fantastic news. It will be interesting to see how it affects the amount of phones that get discarded.
I think the next bottleneck is likely to be software longevity. This has improved a lot lately!
But basically I think phones have now reached a place like laptops and desktops where HW capabilities are stable, and there's no good reason for devices to be obsolete in 5 years any more.
I wonder if regulators said "your software has to get security updates for 10 years" would that be enough to get mobile SoC vendors upstreaming their HW support and Google streamlining the Android update process? (To Google's credit they have already done a _lot_ of positive work in that area as I understand it).
The battery is indeed the HW part that has the most decay.
But in that 5y time-frame the SW part is the one that is the most problematic.
It would be nice to be able to replace the ROM easily after the EOL of the device.
Will self-regulate itself immediately, as then incentives to have longer life is real and you cannot force customers to just buy another device because you decided it's time.
By "replace ROM easily" it means that one has the access (keys) and documentation to do it.
The sad part is that you can't even do "ROM" replacements, it won't work for most people. Many countries have multiple apps that you more or less need to function in society, there needs to be a requirement for those apps to be installable on jail broken phones, not just via the official app store, if custom firmware is to make sense. Otherwise that old phone isn't going to provide much value anyway.
10 years of software update isn't actually unreasonable, if you can replace the battery on your phone easily. An iPhone 7 for instance is still a pretty useful phone for many, and I don't see any use cases that would chance that in the next couple of years.
Depends on how you use it. Most people don't know you should not let your battery drain below 25%, and that the recommendation is to have it plugged in a charger as often as possible.
My Pixel 2 has probably more flash damage than batter degradation.
Is ROM really used anymore? It seems like these days, everything is OTA update compatible.
Customers aren’t forced to buy new devices, they just no longer get software updates after N (5?) years. You would need an alternative OS, like a version of Android that lacks google apps or something.
It is interesting that the EU only wants to regulate markets that they are not participating in. They don't make smartphone anymore so any regulations isn't hurting them. It would be admirable if they held the same standard for vehicles, including brands from the EU.
As a European citizen I agree that the way car manufacturers are given the satin glove treatment is despicable.
That said, the EU does regulate every market it participates in. If you can find it on a store shelf, you'll find EU regulation about it.
One of the major driving forces behind the Brexit vote was to "get rid of all of the EU paperwork". Of course they still have to get their paperwork in order if they want to export to the EU now, but for their internal market they're free to ignore all the EU regulations if they want to. As it turns out, most of those regulations were quite reasonable so a lot of the old regulations remained unchanged, but they were definitely there.
> It is interesting that the EU only wants to regulate markets that they are not participating in.
The EU only regulates markets they are participating in. The only country that regulates markets that they do not participate in is the United States, and for the most part they seem to be doing so for fairly good reasons (such as with the anti money laundering and anti terrorism financing laws). Though of course you are free to disagree with whether or not you think those are good reasons.
> the EU only wants to regulate markets that they are not participating in
This is incredibly inaccurate, there's tons of regulations in the EU for just about anything produced or imported here. One big example: cars, which the EU produces quite a lot of, see EURO emission standards for a specific example.
EVs should absolutely be required to use standardised and replaceable battery modules. (Replaceable by any competent mechanic, at least). Although theft would become a concern, when the battery pack makes up over half of the value of any EV.
But it's amazing how many people are so quick to essentially say 'F the planet, I don't mind buying a new phone every 2 years, and I really don't want my next iPhone to be 2mm fatter!'.
The EU doesn't make smartphones anymore in the same way that the USA doesn't make smartphones anymore. There's still plenty of design going on, but the manufacturing is outsourced to Asia.
> It would be admirable if they held the same standard for vehicles, including brands from the EU
This regulation does cover vehicles.
It also covers a wide range of devices, including ones that are indeed made by the EU.
Beyond that, I think "only regulate things you make" is a silly standard. The point of regulations are (or should be) to protect consumers, not to disadvantage companies. The EU has lots of consumers who buy smartphones and thus has a very legitimate reason to want to regulate them to protect their consumers.
I once replaced a battery, not by breaking the device (ebook) in two, but by making a battery sized hole in the backplate. I knew approximately where the battery was and there was not much danger drilling in to the dead battery.
Now, this idea was better than I thought. I could use bigger and fatter battery just by covering it with adhesive foil. And I could even use AA-shaped lithiums if the device thinness was not important.
As regards to electrical connection, you use the connector and controller from the original battery and connect raw battery lines to the new battery of your choice.
I have never used a phone (nor a laptop) where the battery wasn't easily replaceable and to be honest I can't really imagine using one. Batteries can (and do) go bad and start expanding. Using a device where the battery isn't easily accessible feels absolutely distressing.
In the last decade and a half I have owned 4 phones total and I have yet to have one that has such a poor battery that it has needed the battery replaced before the phone itself was essentially obsolete. I don't know if maybe other people just use their phone so much more than me... Mine sits here on my desks and I look at it for notifications every now and then, maybe send a text... Thats it. Take a phone call once every few days.
My phone is a Pixel 2 from 2018. The battery lasts nearly 2 days without charging, easily. If I am about to go out and use it heavily on maps or GPS... I charge it, and I get an evening's use out of it still easily.
Maybe I'm just not the normal user. But for these people running batteries dead more than once a day and needed to replace a battery once every 2 years... I don't get it.
And this is a level of regulation that I don't think will actually do much to save batteries from landfills.
Meanwhile in Spain there single-use vape pens for sale in every Tabac shop that have small lithium ion cells in them, and people everywhere are literally buying and tossing those cells in the trash every goddamn day. I find them laying on sidewalks all the time. This is still allowed, but a battery tightly sealed in a phone that should last a normal person years is a problem?
If only apps could run on old smartphone so we don't have to change phone every 2 to 4 years.
Good luck using popular apps with an old phone, it's DESIGNED to run slower because Google constantly upgrades the android api, which constantly makes phones obsolete.
Hairdryer, suction anti-clamp, pick that must NOT be inserted more than 3mm or you break the device, both pentalobe and triwing security screws (screw types that only exist to stop users from opening things), numerous fragile cables that must be disconnected, and of course a glued in exposed cell battery.
I don't think we have to worry about this being classified as easily user replaceable with basic tools.
> Doable for layman? Well, some people are afraid of opening up a device in any way. How do we (or, rather, lawyers) draw a line?
Start by not requiring a screwdriver in the process of changing batteries. I remember the early days of Samsung/Android phones where you only needed to pry open the back cover using your nail and the battery was easily taken out.
It's a small change but the layman will be way less afraid.
Those tabs are not that easy to pull by hand. Very easy to break and then you're forced to pry out the battery, which is less safe than if it didn't need prying.
I know the glue is unnecessary because every time I've replaced a battery, I didn't glue the new one back in, and my phone performed fine.
I'm all for pro-consumer decisions like this but for me it seems like there is a choice to be made. It's either user-replaceable batteries or waterproof smartphones.
I don’t know. I already have to click cookie buttons on every goddamn web site I visit, it’s annoying as hell. These EU initiatives can be a bit pointless.
Battery needs to be replaced like once every 2-3 years. Why change the device design to make battery user-replaceable when I can bring it to the repair shop?
If changing the battery is a one hour cheap deal, a lot more people may do it.
And I am very happy about those EU initiatives: this way I know what sites are tracking me and how much. This tells me which sites values annoying me with their banner so they can sell my data.
Have you noticed there is no banner on Hacker news despite the fact that:
- they serve in Europe
- they use cookies
That's because it's not about cookies, and the banner is only for privacy abusers.
According to the wording of the draft legislation (according to the article):
It also says that spare parts should be available for up to seven years after a phone’s release, and, perhaps most importantly, “the process for replacement shall be able to be carried out by a layman.”
This means, that basically every phone where you can unscrew the back, disconnect the connector, remove the glue with a pull tab, and put in a new battery, is already compliant. Its basically the same set of steps any corner shop repair tech would do (but its something you could do yourself).
It just states that manufacturers cant interfere with this process, and have to sell the parts to you for 7 years after purchase.
I want to be able to change the battery far more often - possibly every 8 hours if I'm using the phone a lot during an off-road adventure or other adventure where having a charging device isn't a great solution. When I used to travel a lot I had a smartphone with a replaceable battery and I carried several replacement batteries. Going from 5% battery life to 100% battery life in the few seconds it takes to change the battery was a very useful thing when I wasn't able to charge the phone easily. And no, battery charging bricks are not convenient. They are way more bulky and take far longer to charge the phone than popping in a fully charged battery.
I hope this happens. Making a phone more of an appliance like a washing machine etc. I hope this happens for TVs too since smart TVs are a load of shit just now.
i think they want to address the chip shortage (or a possible repetition of the shortage) by extending the life of the smartphones - which doesn't make the smartphone producers happy.
[+] [-] bjackman|2 years ago|reply
I think the next bottleneck is likely to be software longevity. This has improved a lot lately!
But basically I think phones have now reached a place like laptops and desktops where HW capabilities are stable, and there's no good reason for devices to be obsolete in 5 years any more.
I wonder if regulators said "your software has to get security updates for 10 years" would that be enough to get mobile SoC vendors upstreaming their HW support and Google streamlining the Android update process? (To Google's credit they have already done a _lot_ of positive work in that area as I understand it).
[+] [-] thesnide|2 years ago|reply
But in that 5y time-frame the SW part is the one that is the most problematic.
It would be nice to be able to replace the ROM easily after the EOL of the device.
Will self-regulate itself immediately, as then incentives to have longer life is real and you cannot force customers to just buy another device because you decided it's time.
By "replace ROM easily" it means that one has the access (keys) and documentation to do it.
[+] [-] mrweasel|2 years ago|reply
10 years of software update isn't actually unreasonable, if you can replace the battery on your phone easily. An iPhone 7 for instance is still a pretty useful phone for many, and I don't see any use cases that would chance that in the next couple of years.
[+] [-] pelorat|2 years ago|reply
My Pixel 2 has probably more flash damage than batter degradation.
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|2 years ago|reply
Customers aren’t forced to buy new devices, they just no longer get software updates after N (5?) years. You would need an alternative OS, like a version of Android that lacks google apps or something.
[+] [-] systemtest|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeroenhd|2 years ago|reply
That said, the EU does regulate every market it participates in. If you can find it on a store shelf, you'll find EU regulation about it.
One of the major driving forces behind the Brexit vote was to "get rid of all of the EU paperwork". Of course they still have to get their paperwork in order if they want to export to the EU now, but for their internal market they're free to ignore all the EU regulations if they want to. As it turns out, most of those regulations were quite reasonable so a lot of the old regulations remained unchanged, but they were definitely there.
[+] [-] forty|2 years ago|reply
Vehicles are definitely regulated in Europe (see that story with Volkswagen, an EU brand, cheating the regulation as an example [1])
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
EDIT: I realize this started in the US but EU countries also went after VW and other EU brands after that
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
The EU only regulates markets they are participating in. The only country that regulates markets that they do not participate in is the United States, and for the most part they seem to be doing so for fairly good reasons (such as with the anti money laundering and anti terrorism financing laws). Though of course you are free to disagree with whether or not you think those are good reasons.
[+] [-] cbg0|2 years ago|reply
This is incredibly inaccurate, there's tons of regulations in the EU for just about anything produced or imported here. One big example: cars, which the EU produces quite a lot of, see EURO emission standards for a specific example.
[+] [-] bluescrn|2 years ago|reply
But it's amazing how many people are so quick to essentially say 'F the planet, I don't mind buying a new phone every 2 years, and I really don't want my next iPhone to be 2mm fatter!'.
[+] [-] hef19898|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crote|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benhurmarcel|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pelorat|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] shkkmo|2 years ago|reply
This regulation does cover vehicles.
It also covers a wide range of devices, including ones that are indeed made by the EU.
Beyond that, I think "only regulate things you make" is a silly standard. The point of regulations are (or should be) to protect consumers, not to disadvantage companies. The EU has lots of consumers who buy smartphones and thus has a very legitimate reason to want to regulate them to protect their consumers.
[+] [-] XorNot|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] refurb|2 years ago|reply
It's easy to pass onerous regulations when you won't take an economic hit for it.
[+] [-] yodsanklai|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dang|2 years ago|reply
EU: Smartphones Must Have User-Replaceable Batteries by 2027 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36394922 - June 2023 (13 comments)
European Union votes to bring back replaceable phone batteries - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36361510 - June 2023 (605 comments)
EU parliament passes law on user replaceable batteries - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36336190 - June 2023 (15 comments)
Non-replaceable battery? Not if this proposed EU law passes - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34129250 - Dec 2022 (234 comments)
EU legislation could bring back user replaceable batteries - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34085963 - Dec 2022 (23 comments)
Replaceable batteries are coming back to phones if the EU gets its way - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30867892 - March 2022 (14 comments)
EU to make it mandatory to use customer-replaceable batteries in household items - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30660953 - March 2022 (637 comments)
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] layer8|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tomjen3|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timonoko|2 years ago|reply
Now, this idea was better than I thought. I could use bigger and fatter battery just by covering it with adhesive foil. And I could even use AA-shaped lithiums if the device thinness was not important.
As regards to electrical connection, you use the connector and controller from the original battery and connect raw battery lines to the new battery of your choice.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YxjgaVVpiPvygHXS8
[+] [-] seba_dos1|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mk_stjames|2 years ago|reply
My phone is a Pixel 2 from 2018. The battery lasts nearly 2 days without charging, easily. If I am about to go out and use it heavily on maps or GPS... I charge it, and I get an evening's use out of it still easily.
Maybe I'm just not the normal user. But for these people running batteries dead more than once a day and needed to replace a battery once every 2 years... I don't get it.
And this is a level of regulation that I don't think will actually do much to save batteries from landfills.
Meanwhile in Spain there single-use vape pens for sale in every Tabac shop that have small lithium ion cells in them, and people everywhere are literally buying and tossing those cells in the trash every goddamn day. I find them laying on sidewalks all the time. This is still allowed, but a battery tightly sealed in a phone that should last a normal person years is a problem?
[+] [-] MitPitt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] c2h5oh|2 years ago|reply
- Pixel 4, more than doubling it's battery life
- Pixel 2 XL making it usable again
- One Plus 6 almost doubling it's battery life
So clearly mileage will vary.
[+] [-] askonomm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rich_sasha|2 years ago|reply
I prefer replaceable.
[+] [-] jokoon|2 years ago|reply
Good luck using popular apps with an old phone, it's DESIGNED to run slower because Google constantly upgrades the android api, which constantly makes phones obsolete.
This is an excellent example of wirth law.
[+] [-] mantas|2 years ago|reply
You need a common tool to get in (trident screwdriver is available in most DIY shops), then glue tabs can be pried by hand.
Doable for layman? Well, some people are afraid of opening up a device in any way. How do we (or, rather, lawyers) draw a line?
[+] [-] arghwhat|2 years ago|reply
Hairdryer, suction anti-clamp, pick that must NOT be inserted more than 3mm or you break the device, both pentalobe and triwing security screws (screw types that only exist to stop users from opening things), numerous fragile cables that must be disconnected, and of course a glued in exposed cell battery.
I don't think we have to worry about this being classified as easily user replaceable with basic tools.
[+] [-] adhvaryu|2 years ago|reply
Start by not requiring a screwdriver in the process of changing batteries. I remember the early days of Samsung/Android phones where you only needed to pry open the back cover using your nail and the battery was easily taken out.
It's a small change but the layman will be way less afraid.
[+] [-] brvsft|2 years ago|reply
I know the glue is unnecessary because every time I've replaced a battery, I didn't glue the new one back in, and my phone performed fine.
[+] [-] chakintosh|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] acd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] f6v|2 years ago|reply
Battery needs to be replaced like once every 2-3 years. Why change the device design to make battery user-replaceable when I can bring it to the repair shop?
[+] [-] BiteCode_dev|2 years ago|reply
- it's expensive
- it takes their phone away
If changing the battery is a one hour cheap deal, a lot more people may do it.
And I am very happy about those EU initiatives: this way I know what sites are tracking me and how much. This tells me which sites values annoying me with their banner so they can sell my data.
Have you noticed there is no banner on Hacker news despite the fact that:
- they serve in Europe
- they use cookies
That's because it's not about cookies, and the banner is only for privacy abusers.
[+] [-] croes|2 years ago|reply
Could have simple valued the Do-Not-Track flag but they didn't want to.
[+] [-] torginus|2 years ago|reply
It also says that spare parts should be available for up to seven years after a phone’s release, and, perhaps most importantly, “the process for replacement shall be able to be carried out by a layman.”
This means, that basically every phone where you can unscrew the back, disconnect the connector, remove the glue with a pull tab, and put in a new battery, is already compliant. Its basically the same set of steps any corner shop repair tech would do (but its something you could do yourself).
It just states that manufacturers cant interfere with this process, and have to sell the parts to you for 7 years after purchase.
[+] [-] lawn|2 years ago|reply
Having a replaceable battery is a godsend when you're traveling. Changing the battery in my Fairphone 4 takes less than a minute.
I also live in a small village without a repair shop (closest one is probably a 1-2 hour drive away). What a shitty option.
[+] [-] progfix|2 years ago|reply
You'd rather go to a repair shop and pay a service fee for something that you can probably do in a couple of minutes at home?
[+] [-] leptons|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _gianni_|2 years ago|reply
"I don't care about cookies"
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/i-dont-care-a...
[+] [-] nonethewiser|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] account-5|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] plandis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MichaelMoser123|2 years ago|reply