Something that I think many people really underestimate is how much crime is done by how few people. It’s incredibly concentrated. We may have this image of a normal person perhaps down on their luck and tempted by circumstances and while this is true of most criminals, it is not true of the perpetrators of most crimes.
The same is true of violent crimes. Most people who commit a violent crime are not actually that likely to do it again. Those who do are extremely likely to do it a third time.
Arguably, enforcement should be substantially more lenient for most people and substantially more aggressive for very few.
> top 327 shoplifters in NYC last year were arrested more than 6000 times
so, what they mean is (get it? "the mean is" :) 6000 / 327 = 18+ arrests each
not arguing against the argument being made, but refocusing it with a "broken windows theory" style argument, if so much mayhem can be caused by such a small number of people, I think when the shoplifting problem is allowed to go unchecked, friends of the shoplifters join in for a very small increase in the number of people, but a big increase in the mayhem.
This is conflicting, on one hand it's certainty within the right of a store to bar people who shoplift, it's really an imperative to do so. The petty crime issue the retailers here are trying to counter is a real one.
But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope.
Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de facto ban from the premise? Scan the person on the way in and flash their picture and name up on a TV and tell them they are trespassed from the store and if they don't leave within 60 seconds the police will be called. You can even automate that!
Sure, today, it's just "share with nearby stores" but how long until the database starts to be centralized and extends across whole states, countries or even worldwide? An argument could be made that people who are farther away from home are more likely to commit petty crimes since they have less worry about repetitional damage or harming their own community, so, obviously we need to share this data nationwide or even globally!
This facewatch company is going to have an imperative to add people to it's database and obviously sell subscriptions to access their data centrally, they aren't going to have any imperative to fairly adjudicate removals or false positives.
I can easily see a system like this ending up like credit rating bureaus with a few large companies aggregating data into a score which stores can use to deny entry.
Even if you ignore data errors of any kind and ignore false positives entirely, the concept of a relatively minor indiscretion resulting in a permanent, global, ban from any store using this technology is positively dystopian. It deeply reminds me of two of the better episodes of Black Mirror, White Christmas (the end -- you know what part I mean) and Nosedive.
The fact is though, there is a legitimate need for some kind of change to solve the retail theft problem and I don't think this type of technology is going away.
I'm generally not to argue in favor of regulation, but, this seems like this technology is going to require regulation around disputes as well some kind of regulated civil penalty list (shoplift less than $100 of merchandise on your fist offence and you're banned for at most 1 month). The real problem is that we (the US) have done a terribly poor job with regular credit scores and I can not imagine us doing a better job with this.
> I can easily see a system like this ending up like credit rating bureaus with a few large companies aggregating data into a score which stores can use to deny entry.
I'm sure the big three credit bureaux are developing precisely this product.
The stores need not even ban you: they could adjust their prices on a per customer basis to cover their expected risk.
Come to think of it, the insurance companies could get in on the action. The shop gets shoplifting coverage in its insurance package. It prices the tin of soup at $1. You pay $1 because you have a good "theft rating". I pay $1.20 because I have a moderate miscreant rating. The little lcd on the shelf will show $1.20 as the price when I look at it, $1 when you look. The shop keeps $1 from you, $1.05 from me and forwards the other $0.15 to the insurance shoplifting risk pool. Shoplifting claims are paid out of the pool.
And by the way I am a hardcore non-lawbreaker (actually this is true) but it doesn't matter to the shops or insurance companies if I am mis-rated. Everybody wins! Except me.
Imagine people uploading deepfakes of people they don't like shoplifting. Apparently any of the participating shops can deposit video into the system...
> But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope.
The slippery slope could go farther than a ban from the premise for retail theft. People are being barred from banking in England based on political speech. Don't grocery stores have the right to choose who they do business with? What if they don't want transphobes, Brexiteers, or people of Russian descent shopping there?
- Allow the accused to repay the sale price of whatever they're accused of shoplifting (or possibly even a discount) to remove the charge. There's no harm done, and nobody's banned from every store because nobody's truly banned from any store
- If someone can't afford repayment, provide work or community service as an alternative. I know this is unfair to poor people effectively forcing them to work, but the alternative is JAIL or just letting people steal; and also, people shouldn't be stealing in the first place. Still, EBT, SNAP and other bare minimums should absolutely never be gated (and doing so will lead to violence), and the work/service needs to be capped at something reasonable otherwise people just won't do it
- Absolutely provide a way to appeal false positives. People should have an opportunity to present their own evidence, have a human review the camera footage, and check dates / times (because if you can prove you were somewhere else that will rule it out quickly). Most of all, the appellate court should be part of the government, not the company; it may still be biased towards companies but less so.
- If someone loses their appeal, maybe allow them to make the evidence or entire case public (with others' info redacted), so they can post it to social media? That will help people convicted on iffy evidence, because evidence banning someone from every store needs to be solid; and making the info public will mitigate truly guilty people posting misleading information
I do think there's no good solution. I also think this isn't something we can just ignore, and we can't just ban every method stores use to prevent shoplifting, because otherwise they'll just close or start taking drastic actions. I think that whatever the solution is, it should be biased towards the consumer; but try and reduce this bias as much as possible, because too much bias and the stores just close or take drastic actions.
>tell them they are trespassed from the store and if they don't leave within 60 seconds the police will be called
in MV on a plaza on Rengstorff and Middlefield a security unit parked in the parking lot does just about that
>flash their picture and name up on a TV
that part or anything like it is missing though. It just makes very loud untargetted announcement over the whole plaza. Who it is addressed to out of all the people on the plaza is impossible to say - at least i couldn't see any obvious target on those several occassions that i heard it .
I think that stores would be far more willing to remove facial recognition if there was a guarantee, a social contract, that shoplifter = police on the scene immediately = arrest = minimum 30 days imprisonment regardless of object size, without bail, sentence time increases by 30 days for each repeat offense within the last three years. Problem solved; we can focus on community programs to reduce the desire to shoplift afterwards.
The facial recognition stuff is the digital equivalent of vigilante justice. The best way to stop vigilante justice of any kind is to have Police do their jobs.
>He had just chased after three shoplifters who had taken off with several packages of laundry soap.
>Mr. Mackenzie adds one or two new faces every week, he said, mainly people who steal diapers, groceries, pet supplies and other low-cost goods.
I feel like this especially highlights how dystopian this is. This isn't a tool being used to prevent organized theft rings[1], this is ratting out people who can't afford diapers.
I agree fully with the need for regulation here. The solution here isn't "allow grocery stores to ban desperate poor people from being able to use grocery stores", it's to fix the problems leading to the desperation.
(And maybe the path to that involves giving these still-wildly-profitable retail stores incentive to turn their considerable lobbying sway in that direction)
[1] I personally encountered a few organized theft rings while working retail. They overwhelmingly steal small, high-value/margin things like makeup, perfume, and skin care. Not bulky, low value things list here.
This isn't conflicting, it's just shit. This has no place in a free society, and I have zero time for any arguments to the contrary. Technology has all the promise in the world to improve and enrich our lives, but instead it's turning our world into a digital panopticon where we're constantly tracked and targeted. I'll bet you any money that this tech is going to be used for advertising as well, if it isn't already.
Society is going to have a hard learned lesson on how badly false positives with punishment systems destroys community trust. It doesn't take but a few unjustly punished folks exacting revenge on the systems that hurt them to quickly polarize and disrupt communities.
I have my doubt. Store security still has the leeway to decide what action to take. I suspect they will treat a false positive different when it is a guy in suit and tie vs. someone you would suspect of shoplifting based on a sloppier appearance. If facial recognition just aids the abuse of the poor it won't result in any backlash whatsoever.
Mixed feelings here. First, the false positive issue. Second, the network effect, being locked out of buying anything to eat if you shoplift. Third, the potential to track my movement to local stores that use the service, even if I am a non-criminal.
On the other side, shoplifting is becoming lawless and stores are at their wits' end. What are they supposed to do to combat shoplifting? The law certainly isn't deterring shoplifting.
Is shoplifting actually increasing? Data trumps anecdotes.
Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. But stores don't want to spend money on labor and instead just want to whine and claim there is nothing that can be done, we need to hire more police, etc. to make it someone else's problem.
If a shop catches a thief with a box he took outside the store after they chase him down, they offer him a choice, we will either prosecute you and get you jailed/fined - or you can promise never to come here again and to be sure, we will take your photo and use our scanner to detect you, and will tell all the local shops as well.
Offered that choice, few would take the police route - this may be their tenth arrest = pick the scanner and walk away
No one is chasing shoplifters, at least in America. Store employees have been shot and killed attempting to reclaim stolen goods. Or even worse, employees have tackled and injured shoplifters who have then turned around and successfully sued the stores for huge personal injury claims. It is store policy everywhere that employees are not allowed to pursue suspected shoplifters and folks have been fired for doing exactly that.
I wish we could get rid of this system by getting rid of the demand for it. Stores wouldn't need things like this if career shoplifters got sent to prison.
The article mentions many of these shoplifters are stealing things like nappies. Sending them to prison might mean the state has to take care of the kids.
This is needed, urgently, but I worry about its long term implications. From the article, I think this sums up the general opinion: "economic hardship made him sympathetic, but that the number of thefts had gotten so out of hand that facial recognition was needed."
When politicians refuse to act, or worse reduce safety and penalties, communities lose out and stores close.
Funny, I've been to Gordon's in central London and am familiar with the team who made the security system there. Curious that it morphed into a facial recognition software tool.
Couldn't someone just put on a mask a la COVID and have a field day to defeat facial recognition?
on one hand: shoplifters aren’t shoplifting all the time
on the other hand: there are many alternative ways for people to get food now, and I’m fine if a prior infraction raises their costs - such as needing to go to a farmers market, or needing to use a grocery delivery app so a surrogate purchases for them
I would be against this if it meant no way to get groceries
there does need to be an appeals process or way to be removed from the list
How are people being added to the database? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? How is abuse prevented in this system? There absolutely should be an open review and appeal process.
After that: If you're homeless, you can't get groceries delivered. In a food desert you might not have alternatives.
I personally believe shoplifting is not as bad as is being portrayed recently and this a solution in search of a problem.
If they want to use an appeal process, they must enter the legal process and be judged, at which point an appeal is launched.
If caught by store security, they have you with the box, they have on video taking the box and walking out of the store = strong irrefutable evidence - with no receipt and that video evidence goose = cooked = fine/jail/record. SO you agree to plea and swear to never come here again and to allow they to take a number of head shots at of a number of poses so machine video can spot you. UK judges have agreed this is OK, and I think it is. Crooks and lawyers hate it because it messes with the 'take'...
AbrahamParangi|2 years ago
For example, according to this article in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/15/nyregion/shoplifting-arre...) the top 327 shoplifters in NYC last year were arrested more than 6000 times.
The same is true of violent crimes. Most people who commit a violent crime are not actually that likely to do it again. Those who do are extremely likely to do it a third time.
Arguably, enforcement should be substantially more lenient for most people and substantially more aggressive for very few.
fsckboy|2 years ago
so, what they mean is (get it? "the mean is" :) 6000 / 327 = 18+ arrests each
not arguing against the argument being made, but refocusing it with a "broken windows theory" style argument, if so much mayhem can be caused by such a small number of people, I think when the shoplifting problem is allowed to go unchecked, friends of the shoplifters join in for a very small increase in the number of people, but a big increase in the mayhem.
AdamJacobMuller|2 years ago
But this application it feels like falling down an increasingly slippery slope.
Sure, today, it's just "send an alert and the store can do what it wants" but how long until that transforms into a de facto ban from the premise? Scan the person on the way in and flash their picture and name up on a TV and tell them they are trespassed from the store and if they don't leave within 60 seconds the police will be called. You can even automate that!
Sure, today, it's just "share with nearby stores" but how long until the database starts to be centralized and extends across whole states, countries or even worldwide? An argument could be made that people who are farther away from home are more likely to commit petty crimes since they have less worry about repetitional damage or harming their own community, so, obviously we need to share this data nationwide or even globally!
This facewatch company is going to have an imperative to add people to it's database and obviously sell subscriptions to access their data centrally, they aren't going to have any imperative to fairly adjudicate removals or false positives.
I can easily see a system like this ending up like credit rating bureaus with a few large companies aggregating data into a score which stores can use to deny entry.
Even if you ignore data errors of any kind and ignore false positives entirely, the concept of a relatively minor indiscretion resulting in a permanent, global, ban from any store using this technology is positively dystopian. It deeply reminds me of two of the better episodes of Black Mirror, White Christmas (the end -- you know what part I mean) and Nosedive.
The fact is though, there is a legitimate need for some kind of change to solve the retail theft problem and I don't think this type of technology is going away.
I'm generally not to argue in favor of regulation, but, this seems like this technology is going to require regulation around disputes as well some kind of regulated civil penalty list (shoplift less than $100 of merchandise on your fist offence and you're banned for at most 1 month). The real problem is that we (the US) have done a terribly poor job with regular credit scores and I can not imagine us doing a better job with this.
gumby|2 years ago
I'm sure the big three credit bureaux are developing precisely this product.
The stores need not even ban you: they could adjust their prices on a per customer basis to cover their expected risk.
Come to think of it, the insurance companies could get in on the action. The shop gets shoplifting coverage in its insurance package. It prices the tin of soup at $1. You pay $1 because you have a good "theft rating". I pay $1.20 because I have a moderate miscreant rating. The little lcd on the shelf will show $1.20 as the price when I look at it, $1 when you look. The shop keeps $1 from you, $1.05 from me and forwards the other $0.15 to the insurance shoplifting risk pool. Shoplifting claims are paid out of the pool.
And by the way I am a hardcore non-lawbreaker (actually this is true) but it doesn't matter to the shops or insurance companies if I am mis-rated. Everybody wins! Except me.
Kon-Peki|2 years ago
pessimizer|2 years ago
The slippery slope could go farther than a ban from the premise for retail theft. People are being barred from banking in England based on political speech. Don't grocery stores have the right to choose who they do business with? What if they don't want transphobes, Brexiteers, or people of Russian descent shopping there?
armchairhacker|2 years ago
- Allow the accused to repay the sale price of whatever they're accused of shoplifting (or possibly even a discount) to remove the charge. There's no harm done, and nobody's banned from every store because nobody's truly banned from any store
- If someone can't afford repayment, provide work or community service as an alternative. I know this is unfair to poor people effectively forcing them to work, but the alternative is JAIL or just letting people steal; and also, people shouldn't be stealing in the first place. Still, EBT, SNAP and other bare minimums should absolutely never be gated (and doing so will lead to violence), and the work/service needs to be capped at something reasonable otherwise people just won't do it
- Absolutely provide a way to appeal false positives. People should have an opportunity to present their own evidence, have a human review the camera footage, and check dates / times (because if you can prove you were somewhere else that will rule it out quickly). Most of all, the appellate court should be part of the government, not the company; it may still be biased towards companies but less so.
- If someone loses their appeal, maybe allow them to make the evidence or entire case public (with others' info redacted), so they can post it to social media? That will help people convicted on iffy evidence, because evidence banning someone from every store needs to be solid; and making the info public will mitigate truly guilty people posting misleading information
I do think there's no good solution. I also think this isn't something we can just ignore, and we can't just ban every method stores use to prevent shoplifting, because otherwise they'll just close or start taking drastic actions. I think that whatever the solution is, it should be biased towards the consumer; but try and reduce this bias as much as possible, because too much bias and the stores just close or take drastic actions.
trhway|2 years ago
in MV on a plaza on Rengstorff and Middlefield a security unit parked in the parking lot does just about that
>flash their picture and name up on a TV
that part or anything like it is missing though. It just makes very loud untargetted announcement over the whole plaza. Who it is addressed to out of all the people on the plaza is impossible to say - at least i couldn't see any obvious target on those several occassions that i heard it .
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
gjsman-1000|2 years ago
The facial recognition stuff is the digital equivalent of vigilante justice. The best way to stop vigilante justice of any kind is to have Police do their jobs.
LordDragonfang|2 years ago
>Mr. Mackenzie adds one or two new faces every week, he said, mainly people who steal diapers, groceries, pet supplies and other low-cost goods.
I feel like this especially highlights how dystopian this is. This isn't a tool being used to prevent organized theft rings[1], this is ratting out people who can't afford diapers.
I agree fully with the need for regulation here. The solution here isn't "allow grocery stores to ban desperate poor people from being able to use grocery stores", it's to fix the problems leading to the desperation.
(And maybe the path to that involves giving these still-wildly-profitable retail stores incentive to turn their considerable lobbying sway in that direction)
[1] I personally encountered a few organized theft rings while working retail. They overwhelmingly steal small, high-value/margin things like makeup, perfume, and skin care. Not bulky, low value things list here.
moolcool|2 years ago
toolz|2 years ago
juujian|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
chomp|2 years ago
On the other side, shoplifting is becoming lawless and stores are at their wits' end. What are they supposed to do to combat shoplifting? The law certainly isn't deterring shoplifting.
qbasic_forever|2 years ago
Combatting it is easy, you need to pay someone to stand at the door and check receipts. But stores don't want to spend money on labor and instead just want to whine and claim there is nothing that can be done, we need to hire more police, etc. to make it someone else's problem.
aurizon|2 years ago
qbasic_forever|2 years ago
josephcsible|2 years ago
crummy|2 years ago
AnIdiotOnTheNet|2 years ago
[deleted]
AdamJacobMuller|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
Simulacra|2 years ago
When politicians refuse to act, or worse reduce safety and penalties, communities lose out and stores close.
smk16|2 years ago
No account needed.
freitzkriesler2|2 years ago
Funny, I've been to Gordon's in central London and am familiar with the team who made the security system there. Curious that it morphed into a facial recognition software tool.
Couldn't someone just put on a mask a la COVID and have a field day to defeat facial recognition?
yieldcrv|2 years ago
on one hand: shoplifters aren’t shoplifting all the time
on the other hand: there are many alternative ways for people to get food now, and I’m fine if a prior infraction raises their costs - such as needing to go to a farmers market, or needing to use a grocery delivery app so a surrogate purchases for them
I would be against this if it meant no way to get groceries
there does need to be an appeals process or way to be removed from the list
currency|2 years ago
After that: If you're homeless, you can't get groceries delivered. In a food desert you might not have alternatives.
I personally believe shoplifting is not as bad as is being portrayed recently and this a solution in search of a problem.
aurizon|2 years ago