But those of us who live in Europe sometimes get absolutely infuriated by US-based startups who go for years ignoring potential non-US customers. I'm sure Fab.com would have eventually rolled out to Europe, but in the meantime I'm happy that someone else built a product that solves the same problem.
Sometimes this is a real regulatory problem, like anything to do with banking/payments/etc. But oftentimes it's just because businesses don't seem to like taking on the extra work/complexity of thinking internationally.
So while I don't like their pure copycat methods (down to page layouts), I think they're serving a valuable purpose in the marketplace.
Working often with american programmers, I can tell they often have a hard time including globalization in their code. On the other side, they are usually also quite capable folks, and once they get it they apply it consequently and efficiently. But possibly the culture is not there yet at the beginning.
Still I don't get why not expanding aggressively globally, as the code base exists and the cost of delivering in additional countries should be marginal for most. Too much VC money flowing in maybe?
Agreed. Copying page layouts is pretty bad, but, pre-Internet, nobody would have been upset if a company opened in San Diego that emulated another in New York.
Like you say, if they're not serving the market, then somebody else should.
I'm Italian and I live in Italy, and sometimes I see really interesting startups that (IMHO) could be successfully launched in Italy too. Sometimes I think I could be a copycat like these guys, sometimes I think I could just adapt their idea to my country market , other times I think about contacting the (tipically) US startup guys and ask them if I can help them in some way to launch here.
So, maybe it's time for a new (?) kind of job, the New Market Facilitator (or helper or.. feel free to find a better matching english term for it): a person that could be contacted to evaluate a specific market (i.e. a country), that can deal with localization, local laws etcetera.
What do you think?
PS if anyone is interested in launching their service in Italy, feel free to contact me at [email protected] (freshly made :D)
I think there is a lot to learn from companies that operate in multiple languages- I used to work for one myself (until they, too, got a little copy-happy). Internationalisation is a huge market, and almost all US startups ignore it entirely. We had our original sites running in French, German, Spanish, Portugese, Hungarian, Russian... you name it. We weren't number one in any country- we were usually number 2 or 3. But none of our competitors operated outside their home country, so we managed to be very successful by occupying a lesser spot in multiple countries. Don't get me wrong, there is a large overhead in doing this- but there's plenty of opportunity, too.
One of my first startup was a webmail service available in 17 languages a few months after launch. The focus on being able to internationalize it easily was a big deal in terms of getting traction, and once we had the infrastructure, rolling out new languages was trivial.
We even launched a Catalan version, and the cost of doing a translation was well worth the PR it generated for even (or maybe especially) a minor market like that.
Can you (or anyone, really) recommend some places to learn how about how best to do internationalization? It just seems like such an overwhelming topic, and any knowledge on how to best approach it would be most helpful, I think.
“There are pioneering entrepreneurs and execution entrepreneurs, and maybe we belong more to the execution entrepreneurs,” says Oliver, who speaks at a rapid clip, frequently punctuating thoughts with a rhetorical “ja?”
“I think the most admirable entrepreneurs are those with original ideas, ja? It’s a unique gift that you either have or you don’t. Just as we might have a very good gift of execution, others have a unique gift for the purest form of innovation.”
The constant mantra of HN is "ideas are useless, execution is everything". So why the hate against these guys?
Because I think these guys are copying both ideas and execution.
It's one thing to say "I want to make a site where people can rent out their spare rooms, I saw some other site do it", it's quite another to say "look at airbnb.com, copy that". When the exact execution is the same (even down to page layouts) you're not actually contributing anything yourself.
I have a few German friends, I understand them to be quite risk averse. However, what Samwers have accomplished in Germany is something far far more important and bigger than a clone industry - it is the spirit of taking risks, a willingness to aspire to be something other than traditional careers and a strong stance/philosophy on a type of entrepreneurship (clones) - stances such as these almost always lead to an ideological opposition and make way for others to engage in similar realms with differing philosophies. You can see that in Project A ventures, which is a reaction to Samwer's philosophy, and that reaction is good for Germany's start-up culture.
Erm... I don't think copying successful business is very risky. You can, of course, bork execution, but the key part - exploring the "needspace" and finding a viable business model - is already done. And even executing, when someone executed before, is rather easy.
As a German I've never viewed it this way, but its true.
I'm working on creating a better Startup Community end Environment in my surrounding, not only because i'd like that to be here, but also because i'd like to show that there is a another, if not better, way to do this.
It's funny how Fab complains so much about having their business model cloned when Fab itself is just one in a long line of flash sales businesses with a landing page style that is so common you can get it as a SaaS.
+1. The only thing funnier to me is Facebook shutting down or legally going against anyone that scrap their data and get any traction, while the major reason why there are where they are is in part because of the co-owner's hackers past...
I think this says a lot about the English-language focus of a lot of startups. Failure to cater, through language options, to individual countries will result in a demand for services that do and the Samwer brothers are meeting this demand.
Is the price that companies such as GroupOn pay equivalent to the cost of localising their own offering? Maybe so and it may be a good deal.
Actually it's not just language, a lot of startups are US focussed which can be frustrating when you'd love to be their customer, don't mind using English etc.
Of course, with things like deals sites and so on, you might need to have localised sales organisations busy in each supported market.
But I wonder how many startups simply choose the English language/US market to minimise complexity and risk? (Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it does open the door to copycats)
"There are pioneering entrepreneurs and execution entrepreneurs, and maybe we belong more to the execution entrepreneurs."
What doublespeak. Startups are 99% execution. All successful startup founders are "execution entrepreneurs." All that really distinguishes the Samwers is that they copy existing ideas, and there are already names for people who do that.
What they are doing is pretty frustrating but they appear to be doing it pretty well. Copying an existing business is not always trivial so I suppose they must be doing something right.
Now if they were churning out half-assed businesses just to capitalize on something that is currently trendy/popular then that's a different story. Just look at the Android market, it is full of copies of original indie games that came out on iOS first.
I had completely missed that the Samwer brothers were in the web copying business. Last time I heard of them, they were busy selling teenagers ringtone subscriptions ("Jamba").
They were in the copycat business first, selling alando.de to ebay for millions, ~100 days after launch.
They have a history of making money by, if not illegal, at least morally questionable means, and got in trouble with the unions about treatment of employees...
I personally think it's distasteful to rip off a website design directly, but if they can launch a proven business model in Europe quicker than the American originators (or because the American company can't/won't go international), why not? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery and all that.
I'm not sure I understand why it is so bad. Yes, it is in bad taste, and yes it is wrong to copy layouts (probably illegal to copy layouts). But copying the business model itself? what is wrong with that, especially when the 'original' companies they are copying from, are not operating in Germany (and other countries the samwers are expanding to)?
Well, with the arrival of Project A ventures, you may not have to worry about getting them outlawed - now that an alternative exists you will probably have more people siding to the route of original ideas anyway.
As an American living in Berlin for the time being, I find it remarkable how often the Samwer brothers are cursed by startup founders. But, I agree: invent your own businesses :)
Ripping off the design is not cool. But otherwise, well it is like being the guy who opens the second restaurant, the first one might get annoyed but in a few years there will be thousands. Sounds like great execution too.
Interesting point you make about ripping off the design. I'm not a designer, just a humble developer .. why is it OK to rip of a product idea but not the design of a product?
Copying ideas and execution just happens. Look at other industries - there's a Chipotle clone, frozen yogurt clones, etc. And many luxury sedans seem to be about 90% the same design, at least on the outside.
The reason the Samwer story is so weird is a) there's so much damn money in their game (Groupon, Facebook, etc.) and b) they're generally regarded to be ruthless, cut-throat, slave-drivers.
I know I'd feel differently about the phenomenon if they seemed less like idea-pirates and more like contributors to innovation.
Most of the discussion seems to be about whether or not it's "bad" that the Samwers are "copycats." I was more struck by the culture at Rocket, which sounds quite nasty judging by the article. (“team meetings are full of insults, non-performers openly bashed in meetings as well as via e-mail.”) At least one top Rocket employee is cited as leaving due to the "climate of aggression" (the bad, inwardly directed, self-destructive kind).
Don't we at HN usually say that it's the people that are most important? If culture is destiny, then the Samwers' copying of website layouts is the least of what's wrong here.
The communist regimes of 50 years ago were more than happy to protect our (American) ideas from foreigners. I suppose that in fighting so hard to undue this, we thought they would buy our products but not clone them.
[+] [-] jedc|14 years ago|reply
But those of us who live in Europe sometimes get absolutely infuriated by US-based startups who go for years ignoring potential non-US customers. I'm sure Fab.com would have eventually rolled out to Europe, but in the meantime I'm happy that someone else built a product that solves the same problem.
Sometimes this is a real regulatory problem, like anything to do with banking/payments/etc. But oftentimes it's just because businesses don't seem to like taking on the extra work/complexity of thinking internationally.
So while I don't like their pure copycat methods (down to page layouts), I think they're serving a valuable purpose in the marketplace.
[+] [-] maigret|14 years ago|reply
Still I don't get why not expanding aggressively globally, as the code base exists and the cost of delivering in additional countries should be marginal for most. Too much VC money flowing in maybe?
[+] [-] pfraze|14 years ago|reply
Like you say, if they're not serving the market, then somebody else should.
[+] [-] Ecio78|14 years ago|reply
So, maybe it's time for a new (?) kind of job, the New Market Facilitator (or helper or.. feel free to find a better matching english term for it): a person that could be contacted to evaluate a specific market (i.e. a country), that can deal with localization, local laws etcetera.
What do you think?
PS if anyone is interested in launching their service in Italy, feel free to contact me at [email protected] (freshly made :D)
[+] [-] untog|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vidarh|14 years ago|reply
We even launched a Catalan version, and the cost of doing a translation was well worth the PR it generated for even (or maybe especially) a minor market like that.
[+] [-] gchucky|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itmag|14 years ago|reply
“I think the most admirable entrepreneurs are those with original ideas, ja? It’s a unique gift that you either have or you don’t. Just as we might have a very good gift of execution, others have a unique gift for the purest form of innovation.”
The constant mantra of HN is "ideas are useless, execution is everything". So why the hate against these guys?
[+] [-] untog|14 years ago|reply
It's one thing to say "I want to make a site where people can rent out their spare rooms, I saw some other site do it", it's quite another to say "look at airbnb.com, copy that". When the exact execution is the same (even down to page layouts) you're not actually contributing anything yourself.
[+] [-] pbreit|14 years ago|reply
Actually, my sense of HN is that, relatively to many other startup communities appreciation skews towards ideas.
And I'm not seeing that much hate on this thread.
[+] [-] moadeel|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbanffy|14 years ago|reply
Erm... I don't think copying successful business is very risky. You can, of course, bork execution, but the key part - exploring the "needspace" and finding a viable business model - is already done. And even executing, when someone executed before, is rather easy.
[+] [-] Roritharr|14 years ago|reply
I'm working on creating a better Startup Community end Environment in my surrounding, not only because i'd like that to be here, but also because i'd like to show that there is a another, if not better, way to do this.
[+] [-] itmag|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ig1|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] joering2|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robinjfisher|14 years ago|reply
Is the price that companies such as GroupOn pay equivalent to the cost of localising their own offering? Maybe so and it may be a good deal.
[+] [-] com|14 years ago|reply
Of course, with things like deals sites and so on, you might need to have localised sales organisations busy in each supported market.
But I wonder how many startups simply choose the English language/US market to minimise complexity and risk? (Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it does open the door to copycats)
[+] [-] pg|14 years ago|reply
What doublespeak. Startups are 99% execution. All successful startup founders are "execution entrepreneurs." All that really distinguishes the Samwers is that they copy existing ideas, and there are already names for people who do that.
[+] [-] jacquesm|14 years ago|reply
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3658797
> there was nothing revolutionary about Dropbox. There were already dozens of similar things
Neither do you.
It's the literal copying of the designs without adding anything novel that I have a problem with. Case in point:
http://www.wimdu.com/
[+] [-] mirsadm|14 years ago|reply
Now if they were churning out half-assed businesses just to capitalize on something that is currently trendy/popular then that's a different story. Just look at the Android market, it is full of copies of original indie games that came out on iOS first.
[+] [-] ckuehne|14 years ago|reply
Honest question: What name is that? (English is not my first language.)
And since I cannot quite interpret the tone of your comment I have to ask bluntly: Do you find it okay what the Samwers do?
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] namesb|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] limmeau|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cygx|14 years ago|reply
They have a history of making money by, if not illegal, at least morally questionable means, and got in trouble with the unions about treatment of employees...
[+] [-] blumentopf|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] patrickk|14 years ago|reply
I personally think it's distasteful to rip off a website design directly, but if they can launch a proven business model in Europe quicker than the American originators (or because the American company can't/won't go international), why not? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery and all that.
[+] [-] vijayr|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Roritharr|14 years ago|reply
"In Germany you won't find venture capitalists, just capitalists."
And the Samwers seem to have taken this really literally.
[+] [-] moadeel|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kellysutton|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] justincormack|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xd|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] helipad|14 years ago|reply
They copy a site, claim a userbase in Germany/Europe, then sell the site back to the people they imitated. It reeks of "go away" money.
[+] [-] subpixel|14 years ago|reply
The reason the Samwer story is so weird is a) there's so much damn money in their game (Groupon, Facebook, etc.) and b) they're generally regarded to be ruthless, cut-throat, slave-drivers.
I know I'd feel differently about the phenomenon if they seemed less like idea-pirates and more like contributors to innovation.
[+] [-] gulbrandr|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yaliceme|14 years ago|reply
Don't we at HN usually say that it's the people that are most important? If culture is destiny, then the Samwers' copying of website layouts is the least of what's wrong here.
[+] [-] spinchange|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnrob|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TDL|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ThomPete|14 years ago|reply
Just to put some of this into perspective.
[+] [-] minikomi|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ktizo|14 years ago|reply