brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone, especially other programmers.
Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is such a brogrammer.
See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer
This is not a good stereotype to conjure up, even in some ironic-parody-hipster sense.
It isn't a joke, either; I've definitely seen programmers where I've worked who really do act like that -- and they are like toxin for introverted programmers. Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
Definitely. I can hardly imagine anything more off-putting. Alas, I have seen that kind of crude bragging in Hacker News comments every once in a while. The Hacker News readership skews young, so many of the participants here are still trying to establish long-term relationships. As someone who is approaching thirty years of marriage, I no longer have the preoccupation of finding the next girl--and I really never did, as I was looking for the ONE girl I could count on to be a good wife for a lifetime and a good mother for any children we happened to have. It has not escaped my notice that many Hacker News participants are still looking for ways to build a deep relationship with someone. I don't think bragging up one-night stands provides answers for the many readers here who have questions about that.
Part of it can come from who you've grown up around. To draw from my own experience, I think I've had one technically inclined IRL friend ever. Everyone else has been a non-developer/designer, non-programmer, or barely computer literate. What happened to me was at age 10 we got a computer and I've been absolutely obsessed with creation ever since.
This led to mannerisms, interests, and an external appearance adapted from my peers, but also to a quiet (though dominant) side of me that spends 20 of 24 hours each day pounding away at my keyboard. If I ever came across another programmer in the wild I'm not sure how I would be received.
It's weird to not fit in anywhere. But these guys just sound like douchebags.
Truth be told this 'us vs. them' is a relic of the Revenge of the Nerds days. Saying things like "no you're a bro you can't be one of us" or yelling "neeerrrrrrds" is exactly the same thing. As time wears on, the techs will seem to get less awkward and the bros will seems to get less "bro-y." It's the convergence that occurs once the social stigma of the 80s has worn off.
It should be noted though that tech conversation and "testosterversation" are really difficult to mix. If you're in one mode you don't want to keep switching back to the other.
My predecessor at the current job fits the description - he was renowned for his sexist remarks and attitude. Don't know if he regards himself a "brogrammer".
Turns out a guy who doesn't give a shit what people think of his personality also doesn't give a shit about his code...
I would apply the term "brogrammer" to him in a strictly pejorative sense.
I am somewhat relieved that they have managed to create a new word to describe only a subset of programmers -- I would be ashamed and no longer proud to call myself a programmer if this becomes widespread...
This is a toxic side-effect of a healthy thing: the rise in status of programming work.
In the dotcom boom, douchebags didn't program, they did MBAs and took for granted that as "business guys" they would have the lion's share of wealth and status just for being who they were. That many of them now feel compelled to join the profession their forebears saw as underlings and learn to actually do real work, while many of the rest are pleading for technical cofounders, are signs of a major shift.
Remember that video that did the rounds on HN a year or two ago about the Valley in the 70s? A typical technical cofounder would end up with 2% ownership and zero control. Compare that to Mark Zuckerberg retaining control of Facebook and extolling "the hacker way" in an SEC filing. It's a massive change in the right direction, and most of it has happened in the last 15 years and it's still accelerating. It will be interesting to see the social consequences. Annoying epiphenomena like "brogrammers" are inevitable, but deeper changes are the ones to watch for.
Huh, I had thought the "brogrammer" thing was a parody, not a serious self-description. I usually run across variants of the descriptor "bro-ish" as derogatory, not something people actually want to call themselves; for example, "brostep" is a derogatory term for a subgenre of dubstep that dubstep purists don't like, not something people proudly call their own music. But I'm admittedly totally out of this particular loop.
I thought so too, but the word I hear from people I know at Facebook (where the term originated) indicate that the people who started this are pretty dead serious about the concept.
Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a hiring disadvantage if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.
I totally agree with this. I thought it was a joke. I didn't think frat guys were actually learning to code and calling themselves programmers or something...
The point of this blog post is basically that it doesn't matter if you program or what, if you're a douche, you are a douche.
There's been a few posts on here and reddit about brogrammers at facebook and zynga that were completely serious. If I recall correctly there was a recruitment post here not that long ago where the entire post was about looking for "brogrammers" and based on the comments of the poster he was 100% completely serious even with the negative feedback from the other posters.
Why are people so angry? It seems like these guys are mostly just acting silly. I don't think it's particularly interesting or funny or whatever, but that's no reason to be mad at them.
This is nothing new, back in ~2004 when I was at university for CS there were plenty of students who were desperate to shed the "nerdy" image and would compensate taking up macho hobbies like bodybuilding , playing metal music, martial arts or motorcycling or by drinking large amounts and getting high every weekend.
The whole brogrammer meme reminds me a lot of DHH. Whenever you see him speak he is always dressed and groomed well and fashionably , likes to swear a lot and has a keen interest in fast cars.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
Is there really a problem with nerds being groomed well and fashionably dressed? The people they describe are off-putting because of their attitude, not because their appearance clashes with the archetypal image of a nerd.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
Care to elaborate? You say it like it's obvious to everyone that being into those manuals is a heinous crime, or at least prima facie evidence of humongous douchebagdom in a person.
Is it possible that they weren't trying to shed anything, nor were their interests "compensating"? CS had become one of the most lucrative careers, naturally drawing in a lot of people outside of the traditional (e.g. I entered this field because I loved doing this as a kid, and have loved it since. Many of my peers did their very first line of code in university).
I'm not justifying the "brogrammer" nonsense, but just arguing that it's a field that does more closely represent all parts of demographics, shedding its traditional nerdly people-like-me basis.
First, let's be clear that the term "brogrammer", tongue-in-cheek or not, is downright misogynistic.
But equally problematic are the common beliefs that spawned the term in the first place; that programmers must always be obsessed with technology above all else, and to appreciate things like sports, fashion, or fast cars is somehow "bad" or "uncommon" for programmers.
There are a whole host of programmers who despise guys like DHH for enjoying fashion and cars. They seem to believe that somehow, those traits detract from his skill or significance as a programmer. That Rails is a "bad" or "fashionable" framework because of those things and is thus to be avoided. This kind of thinking is just plain ridiculous.
The spectrum on programming ranges from a hobby, to a career, even to the lengths of an obsession. But no one should be expected to act like the "norm". A programmer that cares more about the latest Ferrari than the latest web framework is not necessarily an undesirable programmer. They're just a programmer with different interests, and no one should be treating them differently because of that.
>First, let's be clear that the term "brogrammer", tongue-in-cheek or not, is downright misogynistic.
No its not. It's a description of an attitude. When used in a job listing as "looking for brogrammers", then that job listing is sexist. The term itself however is not.
I've never met anyone who refers to himself as a brogrammer. Pretty much all I know about the term is what I get from it's construction and this article.
I take strong issue with the idea that celebrating masculinity is somehow automatically misogynistic. It seems to me that the term has absolutely nothing to do with women.
This isn't high school; there's nothing productive or rational about assigning labels to yourself or others. Judge someone by the quality of their work and the output of their lives, not how they dress or the culture they associate themselves with.
Which conversely means that as long a "brogrammer" isn't negatively effecting the working environment, then you should judge him solely on his work too.
This sounds nice and everything, but actually, there's a lot that's productive and rational about assigning labels to yourself and others. If you needed to carefully evaluate the sum of every participant's life before every interaction (rather than caching the result of that evaluation in a set of labels), you would be paralyzed. Humans simply don't have the mental capacity to constantly think that deeply about everything. If you tell yourself you don't ever assign labels, at least in your head, you're either deceiving yourself or you're a Buddha.
Try "Rockstar Cobol Hacker"; if the recruiters are paying attention, they'll either be unable to find anything that meets the intersection of those sets or they'll have something so interesting it'll be fun to read about even if you don't go with it.
Of course, there's nothing you can do about meat-zombies spamming crap to everyone.
The problem with "bro" culture is its narcissistic conformism. I guess they are really looking for an excuse to behave badly. They know they are being assholes, so they manufacture a social environment in which they are encouraged to be assholes.
So listen, bros:
If you want to get drunk, and hit on chicks, that's your choice. But don't give in to peer pressure, and don't pressure your mates. Just be yourself.
Pretty sure the entire brogrammer meme was meant tongue-in-cheek, and humor aimed directly at developers. Besides, anyone who might actually carry on in brogrammer style would soon learn the acronym CLM -- career limiting maneuver.
I completely agree. It's pretty obviously counterpoint to the usual image of the programmer as nerd. I could see taking it seriously if the OP had said "I met some of these guys and they're as douchey as the article makes them seem" but this completely reeks of recursive trolling. The whole "brogrammer" thing is just a troll at people who think programmers can't have lives, that trolling successfully duped some mainstream media ppl (who probably think "Hacker News" is about the latest on who broke into what and stole passwords from which company), they reported the trolling as fact, and now HN is full of people picking sides.
Notice also how there's like no "brogrammers" in here giving us their side of the story? Almost as if they don't really exist? Or if they do, it's not a life or death to them, like it appears to be to the OP?
Funny to me because I wrote a rant about how Rails was no longer fashionable and Node is more fashionable these days. A few people dissed me for paying attention to tech fashion in the first place, but now HN is all up in arms, ready to break out the pitchforks and torches, over whether or not you wear a polo shirt.
One thing I've always liked about programming is the technical culture of getting things done. What offends me about this 'brogrammer' idea is that it tries to turn programming into yet another fashion.
"We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates people who have been doing work in this area for some time.
I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping labels on something that belongs to many people, not just you.
As someone who actually has bro friends the author has no idea what he's talking about. He's completely misrepresenting bros and is regurgitating stereotypes.
First he gets all pissy about stereotyping nerds as having pocket-protectors and then in the next sentence regurgitates his one dimensional view on what "frat-house culture" is and bros' attitudes towards women.
"There's a rising group of developers who are much more sociable and like to go out and have fun, and I think brogramming speaks to that audience," said Gagan Biyani,
"Want to bro down and crush code? Klout is hiring."
Honestly, who does this type of recruiting really appeal to? Phrases like "crush code" have about as much of a cringe-factor to me as "wanted: code ninja".
Yes we're all nerds carrying around TI89s on our belts, and still coding in FORTRAN...
I find this image of regular programmers nearly as offensive as the faux geek imagine hipsters try to acquire while wearing cheap prescription glasses they don't need.
There are two things that needs to be defined here (Well three if you include how media never portrays the story as it was interviewed, media always searches for the dramatical pitch [1])
The first is that of the Brogramming meme. The definition at Urban Dictionary is a joke in itself. It's a joke accept it, don't accept it. No developer in their right mind goes around proclaiming that they are a brogrammer and if they are saying that they are serious (like some say in the case of Facebook and Zynga) you are being deceived [2].
There is a second definition which that I think everyone clumps with this meme and that is of the asshole/douchebag/sexist employee. He is everywhere. Not just in software development. These individuals are the ones making the majority of sexist comments, makes sexist jokes while a female employee is in a cubicle nearby, trying to hit on female coworkers during work hours and going to bars every night. They have existed long before any reference to Brogramming.
Now, I will say this. It was not smart of this individual to try advertise the meme to the SfGate readership. Just based on the prefix "bro" alone will bring about perception of sexism even if the original intent was not to be.
what if women (concisely or subconsciously) find the bro sexually attractive. Could one of the reasons more women don't enter computer science be because of the perception of "slim social pickings?" I'm not suggesting I personally agree with the "bro" ideology but it's fair to consider those that do not choose to enter computer science (male or female) make that choice for reasons motivated by mate selection.
[+] [-] DarkShikari|14 years ago|reply
brogrammer, n.: A programmer who breaks the usual expectations of quiet nerdiness and opts instead for the usual trappings of a frat-boy: popped collars, bad beer, and calling everybody "bro". Despised by everyone, especially other programmers.
Ex: Oh my god, John is talking about football and chicks again. That guy is such a brogrammer.
See also: programmer, frat boy, bro, douchebag, developer
This is not a good stereotype to conjure up, even in some ironic-parody-hipster sense.
It isn't a joke, either; I've definitely seen programmers where I've worked who really do act like that -- and they are like toxin for introverted programmers. Most other programmers probably don't appreciate a "bro" constantly talking about his sexual conquests instead of interesting technical topics or hobbies.
[+] [-] tokenadult|14 years ago|reply
Definitely. I can hardly imagine anything more off-putting. Alas, I have seen that kind of crude bragging in Hacker News comments every once in a while. The Hacker News readership skews young, so many of the participants here are still trying to establish long-term relationships. As someone who is approaching thirty years of marriage, I no longer have the preoccupation of finding the next girl--and I really never did, as I was looking for the ONE girl I could count on to be a good wife for a lifetime and a good mother for any children we happened to have. It has not escaped my notice that many Hacker News participants are still looking for ways to build a deep relationship with someone. I don't think bragging up one-night stands provides answers for the many readers here who have questions about that.
[+] [-] lizzard|14 years ago|reply
A lot of bigotry and exclusionary behavior is couched in terms of being "just a joke".
[+] [-] coderdude|14 years ago|reply
This led to mannerisms, interests, and an external appearance adapted from my peers, but also to a quiet (though dominant) side of me that spends 20 of 24 hours each day pounding away at my keyboard. If I ever came across another programmer in the wild I'm not sure how I would be received.
It's weird to not fit in anywhere. But these guys just sound like douchebags.
Truth be told this 'us vs. them' is a relic of the Revenge of the Nerds days. Saying things like "no you're a bro you can't be one of us" or yelling "neeerrrrrrds" is exactly the same thing. As time wears on, the techs will seem to get less awkward and the bros will seems to get less "bro-y." It's the convergence that occurs once the social stigma of the 80s has worn off.
It should be noted though that tech conversation and "testosterversation" are really difficult to mix. If you're in one mode you don't want to keep switching back to the other.
[+] [-] fuzzix|14 years ago|reply
My predecessor at the current job fits the description - he was renowned for his sexist remarks and attitude. Don't know if he regards himself a "brogrammer".
Turns out a guy who doesn't give a shit what people think of his personality also doesn't give a shit about his code...
I would apply the term "brogrammer" to him in a strictly pejorative sense.
[+] [-] kenkam|14 years ago|reply
... and you don't have to be a bro to have fun.
[+] [-] sc00ter|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gte910h|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rsanchez1|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gruseom|14 years ago|reply
In the dotcom boom, douchebags didn't program, they did MBAs and took for granted that as "business guys" they would have the lion's share of wealth and status just for being who they were. That many of them now feel compelled to join the profession their forebears saw as underlings and learn to actually do real work, while many of the rest are pleading for technical cofounders, are signs of a major shift.
Remember that video that did the rounds on HN a year or two ago about the Valley in the 70s? A typical technical cofounder would end up with 2% ownership and zero control. Compare that to Mark Zuckerberg retaining control of Facebook and extolling "the hacker way" in an SEC filing. It's a massive change in the right direction, and most of it has happened in the last 15 years and it's still accelerating. It will be interesting to see the social consequences. Annoying epiphenomena like "brogrammers" are inevitable, but deeper changes are the ones to watch for.
[+] [-] _delirium|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] potatolicious|14 years ago|reply
Thankfully I work with no brogrammers - this might actually start being a hiring disadvantage if companies are known to be brogrammer-heavy.
[+] [-] swiecki|14 years ago|reply
The point of this blog post is basically that it doesn't matter if you program or what, if you're a douche, you are a douche.
[+] [-] ktsmith|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
How long until we see "Brogrammer needed" ads
[+] [-] goldmab|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
The whole brogrammer meme reminds me a lot of DHH. Whenever you see him speak he is always dressed and groomed well and fashionably , likes to swear a lot and has a keen interest in fast cars.
It also reminds me of the sorts of people who are into PUA manuals.
[+] [-] _bbs|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philwelch|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] itmag|14 years ago|reply
Care to elaborate? You say it like it's obvious to everyone that being into those manuals is a heinous crime, or at least prima facie evidence of humongous douchebagdom in a person.
[+] [-] huggyface|14 years ago|reply
I'm not justifying the "brogrammer" nonsense, but just arguing that it's a field that does more closely represent all parts of demographics, shedding its traditional nerdly people-like-me basis.
[+] [-] cbo|14 years ago|reply
But equally problematic are the common beliefs that spawned the term in the first place; that programmers must always be obsessed with technology above all else, and to appreciate things like sports, fashion, or fast cars is somehow "bad" or "uncommon" for programmers.
There are a whole host of programmers who despise guys like DHH for enjoying fashion and cars. They seem to believe that somehow, those traits detract from his skill or significance as a programmer. That Rails is a "bad" or "fashionable" framework because of those things and is thus to be avoided. This kind of thinking is just plain ridiculous.
The spectrum on programming ranges from a hobby, to a career, even to the lengths of an obsession. But no one should be expected to act like the "norm". A programmer that cares more about the latest Ferrari than the latest web framework is not necessarily an undesirable programmer. They're just a programmer with different interests, and no one should be treating them differently because of that.
[+] [-] hackinthebochs|14 years ago|reply
No its not. It's a description of an attitude. When used in a job listing as "looking for brogrammers", then that job listing is sexist. The term itself however is not.
[+] [-] JohnnyBrown|14 years ago|reply
I take strong issue with the idea that celebrating masculinity is somehow automatically misogynistic. It seems to me that the term has absolutely nothing to do with women.
[+] [-] Vergle|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmduke|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] icegreentea|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chc|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sjtgraham|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] endlessvoid94|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] derleth|14 years ago|reply
Of course, there's nothing you can do about meat-zombies spamming crap to everyone.
[+] [-] ilamont|14 years ago|reply
http://www.linkedin.com/search/fpsearch?type=people&keyw...
That compares with more than 914,000 results for a people search of "programmer"
[+] [-] alexholehouse|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ohmanohman|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] wisty|14 years ago|reply
So listen, bros:
If you want to get drunk, and hit on chicks, that's your choice. But don't give in to peer pressure, and don't pressure your mates. Just be yourself.
[+] [-] jroseattle|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] radikalus|14 years ago|reply
I might jokingly label myself a "finance douchebag" but it's more a dig at my peers than an affirmation of the industry's behavior patterns.
The culture was becoming frat-house/locker-room long before the term was coined...(Now is there a feedback loop from memes like this, who knows?)
Getting upset over a meme seems kind of pointless. Plus the internets will always win.
[+] [-] oacgnol|14 years ago|reply
That said, if you do happen to meet someone who takes it seriously and lives that "life", then they're dumber than you think they are.
[+] [-] iamgilesbowkett|14 years ago|reply
Notice also how there's like no "brogrammers" in here giving us their side of the story? Almost as if they don't really exist? Or if they do, it's not a life or death to them, like it appears to be to the OP?
Funny to me because I wrote a rant about how Rails was no longer fashionable and Node is more fashionable these days. A few people dissed me for paying attention to tech fashion in the first place, but now HN is all up in arms, ready to break out the pitchforks and torches, over whether or not you wear a polo shirt.
[+] [-] GFKjunior|14 years ago|reply
http://danilo.ariadoss.com/about/
Pretty much exactly what I expected.
[+] [-] rmangi|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] feedbackloop|14 years ago|reply
"We're the cool programmers" is particularly offensive because it alienates people who have been doing work in this area for some time.
I can understand wanting to refine your image but do it without slapping labels on something that belongs to many people, not just you.
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
Like saying "I don't understand haskell but that's cool because I can totally bong a bear unlike you losers"
[+] [-] cop359|14 years ago|reply
First he gets all pissy about stereotyping nerds as having pocket-protectors and then in the next sentence regurgitates his one dimensional view on what "frat-house culture" is and bros' attitudes towards women.
[+] [-] kayoone|14 years ago|reply
Oh my, stereotypes FTW...
[+] [-] strags|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brown9-2|14 years ago|reply
Honestly, who does this type of recruiting really appeal to? Phrases like "crush code" have about as much of a cringe-factor to me as "wanted: code ninja".
[+] [-] JVIDEL|14 years ago|reply
I find this image of regular programmers nearly as offensive as the faux geek imagine hipsters try to acquire while wearing cheap prescription glasses they don't need.
[+] [-] phwd|14 years ago|reply
The first is that of the Brogramming meme. The definition at Urban Dictionary is a joke in itself. It's a joke accept it, don't accept it. No developer in their right mind goes around proclaiming that they are a brogrammer and if they are saying that they are serious (like some say in the case of Facebook and Zynga) you are being deceived [2].
There is a second definition which that I think everyone clumps with this meme and that is of the asshole/douchebag/sexist employee. He is everywhere. Not just in software development. These individuals are the ones making the majority of sexist comments, makes sexist jokes while a female employee is in a cubicle nearby, trying to hit on female coworkers during work hours and going to bars every night. They have existed long before any reference to Brogramming.
Now, I will say this. It was not smart of this individual to try advertise the meme to the SfGate readership. Just based on the prefix "bro" alone will bring about perception of sexism even if the original intent was not to be.
[1]: http://www.facebook.com/ariadoss/posts/305742279480205 [2]: http://www.facebook.com/getwiththebrogram/posts/373108606051...
[+] [-] vicapow|14 years ago|reply