Just to paraphrase a meme "Not a Cell Phone in Sight, Just people living in the moment" : "Not a single SaaS in sight, Just people producing value"
I was quick to pick SaaS as a target, please suggest any better alternatives. I'm trying to convey the idea that technology is not the objective, it's a tool to achieve the goal. So if cassette tapes are getting you there you don't need a fancy software and newest hardware.
It has been working for 40+ years, it does the job, everybody using the system is familiar with it, it's robust (no network required), it's exceptionally easy to service and maintain (all through-hole technology on a single, comfortably large board), and the entire unit (computer, monitor, cassette drive) is rated at just 45 W (so it's probably using less than that.) Also, it's a beautiful machine adding a bit of joy to the work life. – Why should you want to change this?
"These are highly specialized weaving machines that were build decades ago around using punched cards, and whatever benefit by speedup in process we would get from replacing their ancient control system with a modern one, would be dwarfed by the cost of modifying them to use that control system."
Or to say this with slightly less words:
Replacing software and a couple of computers is cheap, compared to replacing room-sized industrial machinery.
The problem that will occur, and will prevent producing things, is that at some point finding parts and people able to repair those will be hard or impossible.
I'm not saying that having latest or newest stuff is any better, just that using old stuff can bring some problems too.
yes! Sometimes I cry "technology just get out my way already", if it isn't going to enable what I want to do, I don't care what other stuff it has to offer. I'm on a specific endeavor and must build the thing if it doesn't already exist. To quote this Microsoft engineer whose name escapes me at the moment, nothing is implemented by default.
In case anyone was unaware, textiles were the original domain of punch cards [0]. (And the mechanical loom was an antecedent of and inspiration for the first general-purpose computer; and not coincidentally Babbage's concept, in the 1830's (!!), was to input machine code via punch card [1]. "We may say most aptly that the Analytical Engine weaves algebraic patterns just as the Jacquard-loom weaves flowers and leaves" –Ada Lovelace (What a lovely metaphor!))
(Sorry if this is too far off-topic or trite, but I had the fun idea that cloth going through a loom is also a type of sequential-access tape storage. If woven from conductive threads, a read-head is nothing more than testing "does this thread form a closed circuit?", and a write-head is the loom operation of "mechanically transpose these two threads". If you can scroll cloth non-destructively forwards and backwards, that's the core of an electromechanical Turing machine).
also loom fault detection was the first successful business of toyota, before they started automobiles. specifically Toyota invented a mechanism which would stop the loom if a single thread would rip anywhere.
and the intuition that halting production if a fault is detected in car manufacturing goes back to that experience.
and the offspring of that, the "Toyota production system" inspired lean. which inspired agile. and Kanban also is core of the TPS...
> The Oxford English dictionary defines the word antecedent as a thing that existed before or precedes another. Precedent, on the other hand, is defined as an earlier event or action which serves as an example or guide.
Years ago I got to know a startup that effectively reverse-engineered the punchcard-like code necessary to run about half of the massive textile looms used in factories all over the world. Instead of needing to use the ancient systems / software that the loom ran, they built software that could effectively treat the loom as a printer.
It took them a while to find the right business model, but now they partner with huge brands to offer them textile customization AT SCALE, which previously was pretty much unheard of. - https://www.unmade.com/
I remember there was a writeup here of a bottled water brand that created N algorithmically generated unique designs. If you're doing something that scales linearly - inkjet/laser printing, textile manufacturing, 3d printing, etc., why not make each item unique?
It's never wrong to use a Sharp MZ-80K – what a beautiful machine! (BTW, there had been an actual 80-column punched card reader available for this.)
It may be worth mentioning that the tape storage of the Sharp MZ family of computers is exceptionally fast. E.g., transferring MP3 encoded media files won't do. This is also, why floppy disks were never a big thing on that platform, as tape was deemed good enough.
The Sharp MZ-80K (as indicated by its name powered by a Z80 microprocessor) was originally sold as a kit computer, but, unlike the more common variety, it came in larger pre-assemblies, like the entire monitor assembly, etc. (No soldering required.) Outside of Japan, it was usually sold fully assembled, often with RAM already populated to the full complement of 48KB.
I rather liked the MZ-80K, having spent a bit of time with it as a kid in the early 80s. I was attending a prep boarding school, for kids from 8 through 13 (can't imagine anyone sending their kids to boarding school aged 8 any more! How times have changed) and one of the pupils had this machine. We spent quite some time playing Towering Inferno on it...
I seem to remember the MZ-80A having a better keyboard. I don't know if I ever used one, or just saw pictures in computer magazines of the time.
Had an Sharp MZ-731 back in the days. I was able to exchange data with an Sharp MZ-80K from a friend by changing the baud rate of the recording. IIRC Sharp MZ 700 was faster, you could actually hear the different pitch on an audio cassette player.
> [deleted]: If anyone (white hat) can hack this place - upload some really beautiful patterns that certain [cosplay/furry/pokemon/whatever] types would love then have those communities purchase these patterns and keep this going.
I live by a different Japanese small town famous for its textile industry and there's at least one place still similarly using punch cards and tape. They exhibited some of it and a contemporary art piece made using it during the annual Fuji Textile Week last year.
Separately I also met an artist who's doing binary-hacked glitch embroidery and knitting with older machines in the area. I think they have stuff for sale from time to time and would be open for commissions. There's some pokemon/otaku/tech-related stuff if you dig through their insta.
Before anyone dismisses the Japanese for using old tech - whether it’s fax machines or funny looking flip phones, I’ll say that it’s truly admirable of them to always focus on the problem than getting excited over new tech.
Has that prevented them from advancing as a society? No. Has that prevented new innovations? Certainly not. This has likely prevented a lot of devices from being decommissioned and adding to our recycling woes and landfill. For contrast, a typical North American company refreshes all computers every 3 years. Imagine that.
I am sure that where it matters, companies are using newer tooling, but where the benefits are minuscule - there’s no pressure to change. Japanese people can take comfort in knowing their favourite hardware will be supported for a very long time.
Interesting that it's just this one step that they stick to the old 80s technology. The rest of the design, inspection, weaving, cutting, etc. seems to have moved on, understandably.
By the way, did you know that (some) modern looms use jets of air/water to send the weft thread across the loom? No more shuttles or mechanical passing of the thread. Amazing.
Imagine how much manual work this used to be, back in the Edo period where the garment was invented.
I wouldn't change a thing, except the stuffing - it's a winter garment, so I would stuff it with wool instead of cotton, though that was of course not an option in the Edo period and still hardly is, in Japan.
Tape cassettes, as it happens, are actually hip again. They make cassette players now for a modern tech stack, with bluetooth etc. Bandcamp is full of artists selling tape, and sales of audio cassette tapes have been up year-on-year every year lately. More and more manufacturers are starting to spin up production again [1]
I quite honestly don't understand why. Even if its sound quality was subpar to modern media, vinyl at least had a distinct advantage with its XL-sized cover art that made it easier to display the albums that you loved.
Cassette manufacturers are restarting, but not _player_ manufacturers. Newly manufactured cassette players sound like absolute shit. The factories making high quality tape machines have long since shut down. Techmoan has an entire series on this on YouTube.
Really bad/misleading/factually-incorrect headline. They use a 40yo computer to control an industrial machine for making cloth, not to design clothing. Which is pretty common.
Agree. The original title was “Japanese textile factory still uses tape cassettes and punch cards”. When I woke up in the morning it was changed (by a mod?).
AFAIK, punch cards were used in the textile industry long before computers came to town. It’s just very convenient to map patterns.
If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it:)
If you are in Japan, I would highly suggest you visit the Toyota museum in Nagoya. Toyota started as a loom manufacturer and the museum has a ton of working artifacts (I recall one is from the 1600s).
They have a tour that shows you the full evolution of the loom technology including one operating by punch cards.
I had no idea until I visited the museum shortly before COVID
Just to clarify, they are using the cassettes and old computers to create punch cards required to run older machines they are using. They are also using modern equipment and computers. This is fairly common in industrial manufacturing because the cost of replacing or retrofitting expensive equipment is high not because older = better (although I'm sure sometimes that is the case).
I don't know the specific requirements for kimono fabrics, but I suspect there are. Accordingly, they use special weaving machines. These machines are clearly made to order in extremely limited quantities. Tape cassettes and punched tapes are attributes of the control subsystem of these machines.
For fabric design, they use Photoshop (is it like Photoshop?) and a completely modern PC.
That is, they do everything right and in the right way. There is no point in changing machines if the machines are doing their job, especially if they are doing their job according to unique requirements.
Upgrading this system just for the sake of upgrading will either bankrupt the company or lead to the creation of something completely different that is clearly not wanted by consumers.
But here's what's really interesting - what heads are in their tape recorders and what kind of tape do they use in cassettes, that all this can withstand the production cycle? This is really impressive.
Edit, regarding the video: It should be mentioned that the parts found in late 1970s and early 1980s computers were usually of quite good quality (things like capacitors were also more expensive then) and modern parts are not necessarily better or more reliable. "Shotgunning" all capacitors doesn't necessarily improve things. E.g., mine works perfectly fine without changing a single part. This particular machine, shown in the video, was in a bit of a rough state, though.
Japan has one of the most legacy tech as they probably automated them first and an ageing population probably is resistant to change. They still use fax and telegrams quite a lot
The punch card is the "design". From the video, it isn't user friendly to edit on terminal. (btw, it is rare to see full English UI in Japan) They can just replace the part to create the punch card. But the textile machine is totally fine to keep consuming punch card.
Tape is fine too but it is risky because factory may stop creating tape.
What is the original title of this video? It's weird that YouTube changes it from Japanese. Like, let me decide if I want it translated or indicate it has been translated??
Very clickbait heading. The 40 your old computer is used for the loom pattern. The cloths are designed and patterns cut from modern computers and software.
[+] [-] vincnetas|2 years ago|reply
I was quick to pick SaaS as a target, please suggest any better alternatives. I'm trying to convey the idea that technology is not the objective, it's a tool to achieve the goal. So if cassette tapes are getting you there you don't need a fancy software and newest hardware.
[+] [-] masswerk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] usrbinbash|2 years ago|reply
"don't use new tech if you don't have to"
and more a case of
"These are highly specialized weaving machines that were build decades ago around using punched cards, and whatever benefit by speedup in process we would get from replacing their ancient control system with a modern one, would be dwarfed by the cost of modifying them to use that control system."
Or to say this with slightly less words:
Replacing software and a couple of computers is cheap, compared to replacing room-sized industrial machinery.
[+] [-] gregoriol|2 years ago|reply
I'm not saying that having latest or newest stuff is any better, just that using old stuff can bring some problems too.
[+] [-] raincole|2 years ago|reply
JavaScript frameworks would be a candidate.
[+] [-] vjust|2 years ago|reply
Just kidding, couldn't agree more with your observation. Not a Phone in sight.
[+] [-] justrealist|2 years ago|reply
You aren't very familiar with Japanese corporate culture.
[+] [-] myth2018|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jxramos|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] perihelions|2 years ago|reply
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#History
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytical_engine
[+] [-] perihelions|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwawayc7de59|2 years ago|reply
Here's a video of a multi-story Jacquard loom. You can see the punch cards being fed up to the story above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB9pRRr_MvY
You can see the products that they make here:
https://nishimura-orimono.jp
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] froh|2 years ago|reply
and the intuition that halting production if a fault is detected in car manufacturing goes back to that experience.
and the offspring of that, the "Toyota production system" inspired lean. which inspired agile. and Kanban also is core of the TPS...
[+] [-] greggsy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 93po|2 years ago|reply
> The Oxford English dictionary defines the word antecedent as a thing that existed before or precedes another. Precedent, on the other hand, is defined as an earlier event or action which serves as an example or guide.
[+] [-] jedc|2 years ago|reply
It took them a while to find the right business model, but now they partner with huge brands to offer them textile customization AT SCALE, which previously was pretty much unheard of. - https://www.unmade.com/
[+] [-] pvillano|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] masswerk|2 years ago|reply
It may be worth mentioning that the tape storage of the Sharp MZ family of computers is exceptionally fast. E.g., transferring MP3 encoded media files won't do. This is also, why floppy disks were never a big thing on that platform, as tape was deemed good enough.
The Sharp MZ-80K (as indicated by its name powered by a Z80 microprocessor) was originally sold as a kit computer, but, unlike the more common variety, it came in larger pre-assemblies, like the entire monitor assembly, etc. (No soldering required.) Outside of Japan, it was usually sold fully assembled, often with RAM already populated to the full complement of 48KB.
[+] [-] cesaref|2 years ago|reply
I seem to remember the MZ-80A having a better keyboard. I don't know if I ever used one, or just saw pictures in computer magazines of the time.
[+] [-] oflebbe|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Legogris|2 years ago|reply
I live by a different Japanese small town famous for its textile industry and there's at least one place still similarly using punch cards and tape. They exhibited some of it and a contemporary art piece made using it during the annual Fuji Textile Week last year.
Separately I also met an artist who's doing binary-hacked glitch embroidery and knitting with older machines in the area. I think they have stuff for sale from time to time and would be open for commissions. There's some pokemon/otaku/tech-related stuff if you dig through their insta.
https://nukeme.nu/tagged/Glitch%20Embroidery
https://glitchknit.jp/
[+] [-] sheepscreek|2 years ago|reply
Has that prevented them from advancing as a society? No. Has that prevented new innovations? Certainly not. This has likely prevented a lot of devices from being decommissioned and adding to our recycling woes and landfill. For contrast, a typical North American company refreshes all computers every 3 years. Imagine that.
I am sure that where it matters, companies are using newer tooling, but where the benefits are minuscule - there’s no pressure to change. Japanese people can take comfort in knowing their favourite hardware will be supported for a very long time.
[+] [-] supernova87a|2 years ago|reply
By the way, did you know that (some) modern looms use jets of air/water to send the weft thread across the loom? No more shuttles or mechanical passing of the thread. Amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVWkZiHjreI
[+] [-] bmitc|2 years ago|reply
Also, I have always felt that people who design industrial automation machines are mad geniuses. They just seem so complex but work!
[+] [-] Tor3|2 years ago|reply
I wouldn't change a thing, except the stuffing - it's a winter garment, so I would stuff it with wool instead of cotton, though that was of course not an option in the Edo period and still hardly is, in Japan.
[+] [-] gyulai|2 years ago|reply
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_tape#21st_century
[+] [-] Hamuko|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lost_tourist|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KerrAvon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] solardev|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xyst|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tdyfhfhf|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nipponese|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] somedude895|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alexchevsky|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] gregoriol|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crazytony|2 years ago|reply
They have a tour that shows you the full evolution of the loom technology including one operating by punch cards.
I had no idea until I visited the museum shortly before COVID
[+] [-] class3shock|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] azubinski|2 years ago|reply
I don't know the specific requirements for kimono fabrics, but I suspect there are. Accordingly, they use special weaving machines. These machines are clearly made to order in extremely limited quantities. Tape cassettes and punched tapes are attributes of the control subsystem of these machines.
For fabric design, they use Photoshop (is it like Photoshop?) and a completely modern PC.
That is, they do everything right and in the right way. There is no point in changing machines if the machines are doing their job, especially if they are doing their job according to unique requirements.
Upgrading this system just for the sake of upgrading will either bankrupt the company or lead to the creation of something completely different that is clearly not wanted by consumers.
But here's what's really interesting - what heads are in their tape recorders and what kind of tape do they use in cassettes, that all this can withstand the production cycle? This is really impressive.
[+] [-] fgededigo|2 years ago|reply
This channel (Byte Attic) have a restoration video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiAL5LCQ7Ds
[+] [-] masswerk|2 years ago|reply
https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=174
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp_MZ
Edit, regarding the video: It should be mentioned that the parts found in late 1970s and early 1980s computers were usually of quite good quality (things like capacitors were also more expensive then) and modern parts are not necessarily better or more reliable. "Shotgunning" all capacitors doesn't necessarily improve things. E.g., mine works perfectly fine without changing a single part. This particular machine, shown in the video, was in a bit of a rough state, though.
[+] [-] piyushpr134|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uraura|2 years ago|reply
Tape is fine too but it is risky because factory may stop creating tape.
[+] [-] ChrisArchitect|2 years ago|reply
And was this editorialized from the original?
[+] [-] ChrisArchitect|2 years ago|reply
...
A computer from 40 years ago is still in use! A Japanese factory that makes hanten while preserving tradition with machines and handwork
[+] [-] guluarte|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dangerboysteve|2 years ago|reply