Funny enough, I predicted this in a previous HZ comment 3 months ago when they cut their server systems business.
> "My guess is that they're cutting the portfolio down to feature only chipsets and add-in cards. Just CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, ASICs, networking. It makes sense if anything - it really focuses on their core business. No more side-projects with questionable profitability.
In the last 2 years since Pat Gelsinger took over, they've cut RealSense, Movidius, Optane Memory, IPO'd MobileEye, and now exited the Server Systems business. The only odd-ball left are their NUC business."
If any hedge funds are looking for analysts, I'm always open to offers...
It's sad to NUCs go, but it was inevitable. They made products for customers, while simultaneously competing with said customers. It's hard to build any decent partnerships on that premise. I'm currently typing this on a Serpent Canyon NUC though, so it's certainly bittersweet.
This is sad, because the Intel NUCs were some of the last computers with adequate technical documentation.
For most modern computers you cannot be 100% sure about what you get for your money, until you have them in your hands and you can run tests yourself. By then, if you discover that the computer is not exactly what you want, it is too late. You cannot get your money back because the computer is not defective, it is just different from what you expected. There are helpful published product reviews, but those do not cover all products, especially not most of the cheaper versions.
In recent years, many small Chinese companies have introduced various small computers that are much more innovative than the latest Intel NUC models, but they have little or no documentation (at least in English) and they frequently have manufacturing quality problems, so the Intel NUCs will be missed.
Moreover, until now nobody has made good computers with 35 W CPUs and with a volume of less than 0.5 L or good computers with 45 W CPUs and with a volume of less than 0.7 L, except Intel. All the alternatives use either bigger cases or less powerful CPUs.
I've bought many NUCs over the years. I'm literally sitting in my office right now with 8 NUCs set up -- 1 as a workstation, and 7 as servers performing various tasks. I know people have always complained that they are a bit more expensive than the alternatives, but I'm willing to pay a premium for the excellent Linux compatibility and reliability.
That said, I've been expecting this for quite some time. I doubt the NUC line made a lot of money for them -- their stated goal with NUC was for these machines to be demonstrations of what can be done with their hardware. In their current situation, I'm not surprised that they decided this was needed to increase their focus.
I guess I'll be shopping around for alternatives at some point.
I call BS on them being not good market fit, Apple does totally fine with mac mini. also these are just laptops w/o screen and battery. IMO the real reason may be worries around minipcs finally getting good enough that they may cannibalize higher margin PC market. BTW there are other vendors like Beelink that make semi decent tiny computers and I have one of those as my teenage kids pc,works just fine.
> BTW there are other vendors like Beelink that make semi decent tiny computers and I have one of those as my teenage kids pc,works just fine.
The issue is, Intel's aiming more upmarket (based on their pricing) for something that doesn't offer a lot more. Intel's done interesting/fun things, such as building the entire motherboard into a single slot sized unit, but going out and buying a Beelink is a better proposition for most people.
If anything, I think Intel can exit this market because they succeeded. They lead the way, they begat a new form factor, and it's won. But the market has grown much more competitive, and it's hard to see what Intel would do to remain relevant & important in this market. Their current efforts are interesting, and even good, but not really enough to clearly differentiate, not enough to command a huge lead in this market, and certainly not at the somewhat above average prices Intel has been asking.
This follows a lot of other Intel examples. Intel left DRAM market in 1985. Intel left SSDs in 2020, in a similar situation to NUCs here: they basically created the mass consumer market, by pioneering NVMe & creating amazingly high-value products that used to be ultra-expensive proprietary botique items.
This seems like a classic Innovator's Dilemna situation, of Intel having a strong hand creating mass-market products that define the industry, but then being chased out by down-market competition, once the offerings really become a true everyday commodity. I'm not sure if there even is another way Intel ought to behave here.
I don't think it's the form factor, I think it's more about competing with their own customers. There are similar offerings (including AMD based) from several other vendors. I've been far more interested in the AMD based ones the past few gen... currently using a MiniForum model with a 5900HX for home server duties.
They're overpriced for what you are buying. I'm not interested in paying $400 for a bare bones i5 with no ram or disk which adds another $150-200.
I bought a quad i5 nuc on sale off Newegg for $300. I also ordered parts to build a little AMD 6 core APU itx setup for 50 bucks more. If the Nuc wasn't on sale I would not have bothered to even look at it. And for 50 bucks more got waaaaay more compute power. The only reason I even bought the Nuc and not another itx was simply the very small size.
The hardkernel odroid h3 with a quad Celeron, dual 2.5 GbE and m.2 M key costs $130 without the case/PSU. Intel can do better on pricing.
I would bet the majority of Mac minis sold are used as ci/cd servers for iOS and Mac development. I would also bet the Mac mini is the third lowest selling Mac with the Mac ultra and Mac Pro being the least.
Is there data on how well they actually sell? I always vaguely assumed it was a pretty low-volume product that they couldn't actually get rid of due to niche customer applications. They've historically often been very slow to _update_ it; they definitely don't treat it as one of their more important products.
How do you know this? I personally decided against a mini when I specced one out and a MBP wound up cheaper. The pricing strategy certainly made me _feel_ like they were pushing me away from the mini.
The Mac Mini is a totally different market: it 1) runs macOS 2) has Apple Silicon 3) has no competitors for running macOS 4) is the cheapest entry point into iOS development which is a high paying job
They only targeted enthusiasts but there's incredible competition above and below.
Down market, there are way cheaper 1L business PCs which are mass produced for businesses but work great for consumers wanting small quiet (or not, 65w options also available) systems.
Up market, there's all manner of small form factor gaming PCs and others.
Intel did have a knack for having interesting twists & innovations, but they rarely were must have advantages. Building the whole PC on a card was an interesting & useful move, for their gaming Extreme series. Skull Canyon back in 2016 showed a power density and level of integration that the world didn't know had been possible. The price has always been high, too high for critical success, but I thanks Intel for pushing new things & pushing the market. https://www.anandtech.com/show/10343/the-intel-skull-canyon-...
I buy 2-4 year old Dell (or similar) micro desktops just for this reason. Just enough upgradability (SSD/RAM, sometimes even CPU) and just enough power but runs cool and quiet.
Recently bought a lot of 10 Dell Optiplex Micros for around $1,200 USD all ready to go (9th gen / 16GB DDR4 / 512GB SSD, Win10 Pro) for a small business that works on spreadsheets and basic data entry all day. Replaced old desktop towers and employees were happy to have more free desk/working space.
Every time I looked at getting a NUC when I wanted a SFF system I ran into this problem. If I just needed a low power Linux box I could get a cheapo Atom device or even just a Raspberry Pi. If I needed more power a SFF PC, a laptop, or even a Mac mini was usually an overall better buy accounting for my time invested.
I always wanted to like these, but they seemed consistently overpriced by like 30%. I'd price one out with all the necessary parts, and by the end it was always like, why am I not just buying a mac mini (or an RPi, for lower-intensity applications)?
We bought a couple of i7 NUCs every time a new generation was launched, mainly to have access to the latest GPU features.
That is, we hoped to use Intel's MFX Media SDK for transcoding h264 (or even h265) video. Unfortunately both the SDK and the hardware were too much of a moving target, going from software to hardware only, Windows only then later linux only on CentOS, then only on Ubuntu, then (partially) open source. Dropping support for older generations, breaking API changes. Opaque licensing policies.
At some point we gave up and simply went with ffmpeg. Works great on AMD too, or ARM for that matter.
Still using a NUC as main development machine, extremely fast and mostly quiet.
Same story. I looked at a NUC as a possible SFF PC, balked at the price, and ended up buying a Lenovo M93p Tiny off a guy on Craigslist for a lot less.
Same here, I wanted to have a mini desktop to transplant the hard drive of a dying laptop, so I was looking into them, and exactly because of that I gave up.
Given how common embedded/box PCs are (so many display boards and digital signages - at the restaurant/every kiosk, operating the dozens of automated processes we take for granted - or not, given it's HN) - I can't imagine the market not existing. Intel making poor business decisions/cost cutting, sure. But the market of box PCs is huge. And Intel is likely the best company on Earth to be able to leverage their knowledge and bring niche products to market that most companies can't even dream of designing (unless you're AMD/Apple/Nvidia - and even they don't have fab + design capabilities.)
As someone who was hoping to use a NUC as a computer/laptop, I am dissappointed in Intel.
This could be good news for Framework. For me, the ability to upgrade a laptop's main board and then use the old one like a NUC is a big selling point. As their userbase grows it will be easer to pickup used boards for cheap.
I guess? I mean, I would happily consider a Framework mini-PC, but buying literal laptop boards when I don't actually want a laptop, and then having to, what, cobble together a power supply and case, etc? I found it a lot more convenient to buy a barebones NUC, put in some Crucial RAM and an SSD... considerably cheaper too.
This is disappointing - I own four of these. I deliberately bought the older new-old stock units that were on clearance prices. One sits on a shelf in my basement next to my Synology NAS, and is a headless Ubuntu box I use as a very low-end build server for my blogs and writing projects. It mounts a server directory, I VSCode into it and run Makefiles. It works wonderfully... plenty fast. One is a media server machine in our family room, mostly for streaming TV shows. One is currently waiting on a replacement fan. One is a Windows box for those rare times I need to run Windows specific programs for work.
These were the perfect sweet spot for me between abusing low-end laptops and shelling out real money. My kids put them together with me and it was a nice learning experience for them, too.
I was hoping I'd be able to upgrade/replace these piecemeal as needed. I guess I'll have to look into other replacements for when these give out.
Ah, classic Intel. Randomly start making/selling X with great fanfare, maybe do that pretty well for a while, then quietly abandon X later. For any X != "x86 CPU's".
I had a 6th gen and now a 11th gen NUC (both used) as a little home server to run docker/plex . (since the intel chips can do transcoding pretty well).
Runs so well, cool and quiet in a closet shelf.
They will be missed, I guess I'll have to look at similar devices from non-Intel in the future.
$#@! Intel NUCs were great small boxes with excellent Linux support (the only thing that doesn't work in Linux - custom fan control). In retrospect, NUCs were always the red-headed stepchild for Intel, last to get processor availability, so may that should have been expected.
System76 makes a similar sized unit called the Meerkat though I’m not sure how much it compares in other specs besides runs Linux and size. https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat
I want to like these, but they hit the opposite of a sweet spot (sour spot? sore spot?): More expensive than a laptop (which also have a screen, keyboard, touchpad, speakers, etc.) and much larger than a dongle.
The true "next unit of computing" now would be something like a Chromebox the size of a Chromecast.
Of all the NUCs they ever made; there is one singular model with 10G ethernet. And yeah good luck getting it.
The lack of any significant IO to the outside world crippled these things massively.
I tried to order 3 NUCs once; after waiting 6 months for stock, I gave up.
Seems nothing will actually be lost.
Anybody make ANYTHING that is nuc-like and has 10G+? HP Elitedesk 800 mini has a flexio option for a single 10g port, but it's the only similar thing I have discovered.
Looks like there's some stuff on aliexpress like [0]. 2x10G SFP + 4x2.5G + 6 SATA ports for $343 bare seems like a pretty great NAS box on paper, assuming the processor and internal IO can actually handle everything. There's also [1] with 2x10G SFP and 3x2.5G for $276. Personally I'm hoping for something with 10G SFP + 6xSATA + an N305 processor, which I think doesn't exist yet. On paper, the N305 is almost 2x as good as the i5-6600 I have in my desktop, and these things use almost no power, so that'd make for a killer home server/NAS.
10G Ethernet is just not a great standard, and a terrible fit for something like a NUC at 5W of waste heat in just that one port. Lots of SFP and 2.5G around, though.
There are other SFF PCs available which were more competitively priced than NUCs to start with: Minisforum and Geekom are two popular brands I've used. There are also various SFF desktop PCs from major manufacturers like HP EliteDesk Mini which can be found dirt cheap at corporate auctions.
I have an Intel 11th-gen/Tiger Lake Geekom IT11 running as my "home server" with Frigate, HomeAssistant, and so on. It works great, and using OpenVINO for object detection inference and QuickSync for video leaves a ton of headroom for other uses too. The only disadvantage to these, which was shared by NUCs, is that you need to use Thunderbolt for >Gbit Ethernet connectivity.
I'm not on the up-and-up with Intel. I know they're building a fab in Ohio... generally, does anyone know what their next moves are meant to be? I'm curious to hear about their business plan -- I know they've been lagging some other producers in recent years.
So this is just another OEM market that Intel does not want to be an OEM in and for Mini Desktop PCs that for the Most part Utilize BGA Packaged "Mobile" Processors. And BeeLink and Minisforum/others do have Intel Based Options and have sometimes even used the NUC/NUC "Canyon" branding for those OEMs' Intel processor based options.
So maybe Intel can Keep the NUC Branding around for its Mini desktop PC OEM Partners to utilize and even some of that NUC "Canyon" IP that Intel has developed can be lent to Intel's OEM partners there to make use of ODM to OEM Style in any Intel based offerings from any OEM partners there.
AMD's made a lot of headway there with its Ryzen APUs in Minisforum/BeeLink Mini desktop PCs but that's more because of the Integrated Graphics than any x86 CPU cores. And now there are Ryzen 7040 series Mini Desktop PCs from BeeLink/Minisforum using those "Mobile" Ryzen BGA packaged APU variants that have been allotted 65W cTDPs by the OEMs and that's the same cTDP(65W) that used to be only allocated for the Socket Packaged Ryzen G Series desktop APUs that are more DIY friendly there than BGA Packaged APUs.
So OEMs will take over there for Intel and Intel can offer them the same Engineering In Kind sort of Assistance that Intel offers its Laptop OEM Partners there and Intel actually becomes a Laptop ODM of sorts to the Laptop OEMs where Intel designs a reference laptop at Intel's expense(ODM Style) for the Laptop OEMs to take that design and rebrand that as their own with minor value added additions for market segmentation there to sell to consumers. So Intel is no longer a NUC OEM directly but has given that over entirely to the Intel NUC OEM partners there just like on Intel processor based OEM laptops.
[+] [-] Aromasin|2 years ago|reply
> "My guess is that they're cutting the portfolio down to feature only chipsets and add-in cards. Just CPUs, GPUs, FPGAs, ASICs, networking. It makes sense if anything - it really focuses on their core business. No more side-projects with questionable profitability. In the last 2 years since Pat Gelsinger took over, they've cut RealSense, Movidius, Optane Memory, IPO'd MobileEye, and now exited the Server Systems business. The only odd-ball left are their NUC business."
If any hedge funds are looking for analysts, I'm always open to offers...
It's sad to NUCs go, but it was inevitable. They made products for customers, while simultaneously competing with said customers. It's hard to build any decent partnerships on that premise. I'm currently typing this on a Serpent Canyon NUC though, so it's certainly bittersweet.
[+] [-] adrian_b|2 years ago|reply
For most modern computers you cannot be 100% sure about what you get for your money, until you have them in your hands and you can run tests yourself. By then, if you discover that the computer is not exactly what you want, it is too late. You cannot get your money back because the computer is not defective, it is just different from what you expected. There are helpful published product reviews, but those do not cover all products, especially not most of the cheaper versions.
In recent years, many small Chinese companies have introduced various small computers that are much more innovative than the latest Intel NUC models, but they have little or no documentation (at least in English) and they frequently have manufacturing quality problems, so the Intel NUCs will be missed.
Moreover, until now nobody has made good computers with 35 W CPUs and with a volume of less than 0.5 L or good computers with 45 W CPUs and with a volume of less than 0.7 L, except Intel. All the alternatives use either bigger cases or less powerful CPUs.
[+] [-] simmons|2 years ago|reply
I've bought many NUCs over the years. I'm literally sitting in my office right now with 8 NUCs set up -- 1 as a workstation, and 7 as servers performing various tasks. I know people have always complained that they are a bit more expensive than the alternatives, but I'm willing to pay a premium for the excellent Linux compatibility and reliability.
That said, I've been expecting this for quite some time. I doubt the NUC line made a lot of money for them -- their stated goal with NUC was for these machines to be demonstrations of what can be done with their hardware. In their current situation, I'm not surprised that they decided this was needed to increase their focus.
I guess I'll be shopping around for alternatives at some point.
[+] [-] DesiLurker|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jauntywundrkind|2 years ago|reply
The issue is, Intel's aiming more upmarket (based on their pricing) for something that doesn't offer a lot more. Intel's done interesting/fun things, such as building the entire motherboard into a single slot sized unit, but going out and buying a Beelink is a better proposition for most people.
If anything, I think Intel can exit this market because they succeeded. They lead the way, they begat a new form factor, and it's won. But the market has grown much more competitive, and it's hard to see what Intel would do to remain relevant & important in this market. Their current efforts are interesting, and even good, but not really enough to clearly differentiate, not enough to command a huge lead in this market, and certainly not at the somewhat above average prices Intel has been asking.
This follows a lot of other Intel examples. Intel left DRAM market in 1985. Intel left SSDs in 2020, in a similar situation to NUCs here: they basically created the mass consumer market, by pioneering NVMe & creating amazingly high-value products that used to be ultra-expensive proprietary botique items.
This seems like a classic Innovator's Dilemna situation, of Intel having a strong hand creating mass-market products that define the industry, but then being chased out by down-market competition, once the offerings really become a true everyday commodity. I'm not sure if there even is another way Intel ought to behave here.
[+] [-] tracker1|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throw0101a|2 years ago|reply
Serve the Home has an entire series on small systems:
* https://www.servethehome.com/tag/tinyminimicro/
[+] [-] MisterTea|2 years ago|reply
I bought a quad i5 nuc on sale off Newegg for $300. I also ordered parts to build a little AMD 6 core APU itx setup for 50 bucks more. If the Nuc wasn't on sale I would not have bothered to even look at it. And for 50 bucks more got waaaaay more compute power. The only reason I even bought the Nuc and not another itx was simply the very small size.
The hardkernel odroid h3 with a quad Celeron, dual 2.5 GbE and m.2 M key costs $130 without the case/PSU. Intel can do better on pricing.
[+] [-] answiftydev|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rsynnott|2 years ago|reply
Is there data on how well they actually sell? I always vaguely assumed it was a pretty low-volume product that they couldn't actually get rid of due to niche customer applications. They've historically often been very slow to _update_ it; they definitely don't treat it as one of their more important products.
[+] [-] hiatus|2 years ago|reply
How do you know this? I personally decided against a mini when I specced one out and a MBP wound up cheaper. The pricing strategy certainly made me _feel_ like they were pushing me away from the mini.
[+] [-] toast0|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] squokko|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevezsa8|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] halicarnassus|2 years ago|reply
I only need iGPUs for a zippy UI, because I don't game on my work devices, and don't want to have any added noise because of a dGPU.
This might be the right move for Intel, but not for users. NUCs are awesome, cost-effective devices.
[+] [-] jzb|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tinus_hn|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] synergy20|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heresie-dabord|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jauntywundrkind|2 years ago|reply
Down market, there are way cheaper 1L business PCs which are mass produced for businesses but work great for consumers wanting small quiet (or not, 65w options also available) systems.
Up market, there's all manner of small form factor gaming PCs and others.
Intel did have a knack for having interesting twists & innovations, but they rarely were must have advantages. Building the whole PC on a card was an interesting & useful move, for their gaming Extreme series. Skull Canyon back in 2016 showed a power density and level of integration that the world didn't know had been possible. The price has always been high, too high for critical success, but I thanks Intel for pushing new things & pushing the market. https://www.anandtech.com/show/10343/the-intel-skull-canyon-...
[+] [-] inversetelecine|2 years ago|reply
Recently bought a lot of 10 Dell Optiplex Micros for around $1,200 USD all ready to go (9th gen / 16GB DDR4 / 512GB SSD, Win10 Pro) for a small business that works on spreadsheets and basic data entry all day. Replaced old desktop towers and employees were happy to have more free desk/working space.
[+] [-] giantrobot|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bamfly|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pipo234|2 years ago|reply
That is, we hoped to use Intel's MFX Media SDK for transcoding h264 (or even h265) video. Unfortunately both the SDK and the hardware were too much of a moving target, going from software to hardware only, Windows only then later linux only on CentOS, then only on Ubuntu, then (partially) open source. Dropping support for older generations, breaking API changes. Opaque licensing policies.
At some point we gave up and simply went with ffmpeg. Works great on AMD too, or ARM for that matter.
Still using a NUC as main development machine, extremely fast and mostly quiet.
[+] [-] brucethemoose2|2 years ago|reply
...but in practice I never got one, because they were always so expensive. The same hardware can be found in a laptop for much less.
[+] [-] hooverd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjmlp|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lowbloodsugar|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] user_7832|2 years ago|reply
As someone who was hoping to use a NUC as a computer/laptop, I am dissappointed in Intel.
[+] [-] ortusdux|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulrpotts|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] user_7832|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paulrpotts|2 years ago|reply
These were the perfect sweet spot for me between abusing low-end laptops and shelling out real money. My kids put them together with me and it was a nice learning experience for them, too.
I was hoping I'd be able to upgrade/replace these piecemeal as needed. I guess I'll have to look into other replacements for when these give out.
[+] [-] thefounder|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bell-cot|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rx_tx|2 years ago|reply
They will be missed, I guess I'll have to look at similar devices from non-Intel in the future.
[+] [-] yyyk|2 years ago|reply
Any comparable brand with good Linux support?
[+] [-] agundy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xnx|2 years ago|reply
The true "next unit of computing" now would be something like a Chromebox the size of a Chromecast.
[+] [-] gorkish|2 years ago|reply
The lack of any significant IO to the outside world crippled these things massively.
I tried to order 3 NUCs once; after waiting 6 months for stock, I gave up.
Seems nothing will actually be lost.
Anybody make ANYTHING that is nuc-like and has 10G+? HP Elitedesk 800 mini has a flexio option for a single 10g port, but it's the only similar thing I have discovered.
[+] [-] ndriscoll|2 years ago|reply
[0] https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805527368249.html
[1] https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256803996127706.html
[+] [-] rx_tx|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stefan_|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] goosedragons|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eklitzke|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phpisthebest|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bri3d|2 years ago|reply
I have an Intel 11th-gen/Tiger Lake Geekom IT11 running as my "home server" with Frigate, HomeAssistant, and so on. It works great, and using OpenVINO for object detection inference and QuickSync for video leaves a ton of headroom for other uses too. The only disadvantage to these, which was shared by NUCs, is that you need to use Thunderbolt for >Gbit Ethernet connectivity.
[+] [-] silisili|2 years ago|reply
That said, the UM790 is probably the best machine I've owned of any type. An absolute steal compared to NUC.
[+] [-] mydriasis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Farfignoggen|2 years ago|reply
So maybe Intel can Keep the NUC Branding around for its Mini desktop PC OEM Partners to utilize and even some of that NUC "Canyon" IP that Intel has developed can be lent to Intel's OEM partners there to make use of ODM to OEM Style in any Intel based offerings from any OEM partners there.
AMD's made a lot of headway there with its Ryzen APUs in Minisforum/BeeLink Mini desktop PCs but that's more because of the Integrated Graphics than any x86 CPU cores. And now there are Ryzen 7040 series Mini Desktop PCs from BeeLink/Minisforum using those "Mobile" Ryzen BGA packaged APU variants that have been allotted 65W cTDPs by the OEMs and that's the same cTDP(65W) that used to be only allocated for the Socket Packaged Ryzen G Series desktop APUs that are more DIY friendly there than BGA Packaged APUs.
So OEMs will take over there for Intel and Intel can offer them the same Engineering In Kind sort of Assistance that Intel offers its Laptop OEM Partners there and Intel actually becomes a Laptop ODM of sorts to the Laptop OEMs where Intel designs a reference laptop at Intel's expense(ODM Style) for the Laptop OEMs to take that design and rebrand that as their own with minor value added additions for market segmentation there to sell to consumers. So Intel is no longer a NUC OEM directly but has given that over entirely to the Intel NUC OEM partners there just like on Intel processor based OEM laptops.