Hi there, old person here. Tomorrow is my 65th birthday. I had vowed to myself that I would completely and totally retire, Finally, at 65. But then, this "thing" cropped up and the day after tomorrow, I am pitching my 3rd startup to investors. I wonder, am I crazy. But I feel passion for this project. So, I am throwing myself into the fray again, there is no logical reason to do so. So, Rudy, I understand.
> the day after tomorrow, I am pitching my 3rd startup to investors.
I'm still pretty active (58) but there is no way I'm going to do another run, I'm happy tinkering with stuff, spending time with kids and working on average 3 to 4 months per year. I always saw money as a means to an end, just another tool in the toolbox. I don't need more of it so that part of the drive is gone and I'd much rather spend a day playing piano or fixing something than that I'd want to be worried about metrics, investors, customer acquisition, payroll and the bi-annual whack over the head from the fourth dimension that throws all your carefully laid plans into disarray.
But I do very much wish for you to succeed at whatever endeavor you've got lined up and I'm curious to hear about it. Much, much good luck with your plans.
Budd : They say the number one killer of old people is retirement. People got a job to do, they tend to live a little longer so they can do it. I've always figured that warriors and their enemies share the same relationship.
I have this theory: Humans have a spectrum for "worrying about things" or "things deemed important", let's call it 0 to 1. Things you don't worry about are 0. During normal life you worry about some things, and stuff surrounding work may even approach 1. Normal, because your family's well-being may depend on it. Then you retire or become unemployed and the 0 to 1 spectrum starts to drop in scope, the spectrum starts to cover a much narrower reality. Soon you worry and get annoyed by your neighbor not taking good care of his lawn or kids skating through the park... I've seen it happen to people retiring, I was once unemployed for 10 months and I felt it happen to me too.
I then thought: Perhaps for me the working life, life filled with intellectual challenges, may never loose its appeal?! I will just have to make sure to make work more fun by getting rid of the boring parts and focus on the the fun parts. Then, at 67, why would I stop if I got to an almost "pure fun" state? Of course what is fun is also determined by what you are good at so I have no idea what that "work" will look like.
I am 59, and this is my seventh new company, third startup with external funding. We just closed a €1M Euro grant for our work and are well placed for the next funding round during the autumn.
You are not crazy, if it is something you are passionate about. I tend to work on things I expect to take a decade or so before I step off. I really don’t feel that being a bit older is a detriment. I work smarter than I did and I get to work on things that really mean something for me, and maybe the world at large.
On the opposite note, I'm planning to retire the day before my 30th birthday that's coming soon. Not that I'm going to be completely divorced from my firm, but I've delegated most of the day to day work. I'm planning to spend the rest of my time working on some startup ideas, as well as focusing time spending with family and friends (especially some close ones who have less time than me).
I originally planned on getting my MBA from HBS, but due to some of the above circumstances, I decided to delay those plans. They were very understanding though.
The prof sounds like a great guy in a great situation. I assume he has a spacious office on a beautiful campus and in full control of the work he is pursuing. I get the same feeling reading he is working at 100 as when I see a loving group of friends and family egging on a married couple celebrating their 75th wedding anniversary to get them to kiss. You just want to pinch their cheeks so hard…
Should working to 100 be aspirational, or even thought desirable, for 99.9999% of the population? Of course not.
Is it admirable to continue to work in a job where others (who you may or may not respect) determine the nature of the work and work environment…for one millisecond longer than you must? I don’t think so, not beyond a personal sacrifice to be made if the work is of unique critical importance to the direct well-being of people and the planet. Even then, think really hard about it.
Is it admirable to take up a slot in a fulfilling career area when so many young deserving candidates are knocking at the door? Not to me.
Should you pursue your personal passions in any way that suits you in your golden years, when economic issues are not a priority? Absolutely.
But who is this self-identified “old person” who is only now turning 65? Just a young punk I say. Take your hippity-hoppity music someplace else…
I’ve been fortunate enough to know a few older people who really loved their work and were excellent at it. All of them had one thing in common: they didn’t want to retire.
Meanwhile all of my peer group is obsessed with FIRE and dream of retiring early. All of us are also involved in pretty meaningless work that has no measurable impact on the world (five lines of code to a million line codebase is hardly world changing).
The older folks typically also benefited from getting into housing when it was less scarce, riding one or more waves of progress, at a time where healthcare ROI was much higher.
My generation faces a different economic situation. I know people in academia that love what they do and dreamed of living a life like Rudy's. In practice, they're stuck - huge debts, dismally low post-grad wages, stuck renting, just hoping for a stable position (luck over merit). K-12 teachers, lifetime musicians, social services, even nurses in similar positions.
Is meaning worth that kind of struggle?
Not for me. I want to bake as a craft in an owned place of business, then go home to sleep in a bedroom I own. Big Tech is the means to that end. Wake up, Clock in, autopilot, clock out, live. Within ethical reason, I will take any boring meaningless job if it pays well enough.
Locals complain about Big Tech killing the quirky unique culture my city used to have... and I agree! But what was the alternative? Pursuing the baking craft on debt and leases, paycheck to paycheck, barely treading water without any savings? That sounds like living a dream, getting sucked dry by parasites. There are public policies that could bring back the vibrancy, but no one wants density or lower property values (a prerequisite for housing the people that seed a vibrant culture)...
> Meanwhile all of my peer group is obsessed with FIRE and dream of retiring early.
I'm a SWE and I would love to FIRE one day but the goal of my retirement is very different from others. I want to buy some land with a house and a workshop, learn machining, chemistry, electrical engineering, etc and either contract for startups or start my own projects. Also, I'd like to bring some polish to the free software stack by rebuilding some foundational pieces of technology.
It is very hard to have the energy to do a full day of work, come home, and do a full night of work. Unfortunately, the market is not set up in a way where creative people (who can transform various verticals) can get funded to do good work.
Is it such a bad thing to dream of a life which values things outside of a workplace? To spend time with friends and family. The older generations cling to positions of power and refuse to make room for the newer generations, so it is upon them to find meaning and purpose through other avenues.
Retiring seems important for allowing younger generations to take their place. But if all you have is your work and you've lived for nothing more then I guess it makes sense to cling onto it until the end.
I would think that the "obsession" your peer group has with retiring early comes more from the realization that they can retire early (they have the ability to if they want) more than anything else. Your observations of your peer group may have some selection bias present. Cast a wider net and you may come to the opposite conclusion.
I agree that many people do not find much meaning in their work, but most people also do not make as much money as software engineers do. Most people cannot fathom retiring early. It simply is impossible. A lot of software engineers are going to realize that, hey, if I save up and invest money aggressively for roughly 10 to 15 years, I will have enough to live comfortably for the rest of my life without having to do work that I do not like. However, most professions do not make nearly enough money to achieve the goal of retiring early, so they really have no reason to discuss or even ponder early retirement. It's never gonna come up.
Personally, I’m pursuing FIRE for the freedom to choose my work regardless of how much (or even if) it pays. Decoupling my work from market incentives.
I don’t consider retirement to be sitting around doing nothing. It’s waking up and choosing my own path. It’s freedom.
I like some form of “work” but I like to work on my own terms. The more money I have up to a certain amount, the less I have to worry about taking a job I don’t want.
I’m currently in academia, so I don’t make that much money but fortunately do make enough. And I get to work on stuff which isn’t quite what I’d like, but close enough; and the job isn’t very demanding and I have free time, so I can also do the kind of work that I want. I do want more stability though, better income means I can save money and academia is opaque and uncertain
I add like to sense of stability there as well. If there is the nature unpredictability involved, waking up everyday is quite a challenge. Unless you consider unpredictability into your framework, getting paid to do things you love doing can be quite difficult. The person has achieved the highest accomplishment in his field, he has tenure and thus from the outside perspective he is living a much more stable and routine life.
one thing i remember pretty vividly about my grandfather is that he started to age in front of my eyes after he retired. It's ironic that people are almost encouraged to wind down at a point when they need an active life the most to fend off senescence.
Look up Blue Zone groups. Researchers study groups of people that live the longest and how they live. Of course diet and exercise is a big component, but a reason to live is another. There are other interesting factors as well.
Wow, such a winner: Long, healthy life full of accomplishments within a community where he is liked and he likes them back.
I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it, would he consider Rudy Marcus a "winner", maybe bigger one than himself? I recall something about Thiel looking down on the life choices and motivations of scientists.
> I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it
The people I know who look down on modern academics, tend to dislike a set of changes that started happening in the mid-late sixties and ramped up through at least the 2010s.
I'm not sure that's applicable to someone who got their PhD in 1946.
> > I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it
Who gives a fuck? He's just a guy, much like this guy is just a guy.
Don't waste space and give me your take as opposed to mentioning other people, because they are not here and they cannot debate, while you are and can.
Realistically, Peter Thiel would praise the guy. He's talked before about our current level of stagnation and how the US needs to prioritize real advances in technology, especially in fundamental areas like physics. A Caltech Nobel Prize Winner who won his award for his contributions to the theory of electron transfer reactions would naturally help advance that agenda.
This is the way, I aspire for this. One of my goal in life is to have a long fulfilling healthy life doing the things that I love to do, and hopefully see the 22nd century. written human history has only been for 5,000 years and the progress of engineering and technologies has been exploding for the past 100 years. I wonder how it will be in the 22nd century , it must be unimaginable to us right now. And I hope I will live long enough and have the luxury of a healthy brain to comprehend the beauty of technologies in the 22nd century.
I like the work of Blueprint by Bryan Johnson, though it's not replicable for most and felt a bit too much. For now, my lifestyle include eating clean, weightlifting, cardio, and good sleep. This is it or there's more to it? Appreciate any other resources/readings to pursue a long life
>“The main thing is finding something that you enjoy doing, that preferably doesn’t harm others, and that tests whatever aptitude one has, that tests one’s ingenuity,”
If today's scientific community were as functional as Rudy Marcus' we'd still be progressing. The key moment of his career was prediction of an inverted trend in an unexplored experimental regime. In today's academia, he would have hopped to a startup rather than struggle for tenure with foreign ideas that don't support anyone else's old stack of fluffy papers.
Progress is brought forward by people who are 'out there' and are 'out there' enough to let the whole world to know that they are.
But you cannot confine it to science and academia, rather it's the general background 'out there-ness' of the whole planet which then finds its way in various sectors.
In other words you don't get the Einsteins without the Hitlers and you don't get the Richard Feynmans without the Charlie Mansons
> “The main thing is finding something that you enjoy doing, that preferably doesn’t harm others, and that tests whatever aptitude one has, that tests one’s ingenuity,” he said. “It’s almost like a kind of a game. You against nature.”
You, sir, are winning that game. See you "at work" because in 59 years I also want to be productive still!
How does one keep going so long with the same passion, energy and excitement? Is it because of working in academia? Corporate life with its politics has exhausted me and sucked all the passion out of work. My cognitive abilities are declining due to the constant pressure to show (fake) impact and tout my own horn to move up.
I love my work and I’m darn good at it, but I definitely want to retire. I hope to teach my grandkids (fingers crossed) how to program and take an active role in homeschooling them (again fingers crossed).
Apart then that I have a very fun and rewarding hobby: growing heirloom apple trees and making my own cider.
Nothing wrong with working, but I’ll be glad when I never have a google calendar reminder again.
Presumably there's a bunch of teaching assistants in their 60s who have been waiting for him to die/retire for the past 30 years so they could get a crack at the job.
Nobel prize winners show up to teach classes, even if they're 100, because they expect others to aspire to greatness. That's what most would call purpose.
Perhaps controversial, but after 65-70 continuing working is fine but the type and focus of work should change because if not, the work will be at the expense and harm of the next generation.
After a certain point the focus should no longer be on doing work first hand, but should be working to help, mentor and advise others to provide them a path instead of occupying the top.
Fostering the next generations should be the goal, not occupying career space until the grave.
Look I get it, he’s passionate and loves what he does. But there’s something about not even taking a day to step back on your 100th birthday that just doesn’t sit right with me.
Although from the sentiment in this thread I guess that makes me the minority. I’m also not a Nobel laureate, to each their own I guess.
Apropos of Oppenheimer coming out, the guy who invented the H-bomb currently works as a covid researcher. (Or at least an amateur one, not sure what he’s actually doing.)
[+] [-] zw123456|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
Congrats!
> the day after tomorrow, I am pitching my 3rd startup to investors.
I'm still pretty active (58) but there is no way I'm going to do another run, I'm happy tinkering with stuff, spending time with kids and working on average 3 to 4 months per year. I always saw money as a means to an end, just another tool in the toolbox. I don't need more of it so that part of the drive is gone and I'd much rather spend a day playing piano or fixing something than that I'd want to be worried about metrics, investors, customer acquisition, payroll and the bi-annual whack over the head from the fourth dimension that throws all your carefully laid plans into disarray.
But I do very much wish for you to succeed at whatever endeavor you've got lined up and I'm curious to hear about it. Much, much good luck with your plans.
[+] [-] leeoniya|2 years ago|reply
(Kill Bill: Vol 2)
[+] [-] iamflimflam1|2 years ago|reply
There’s a lot of pressure to conform to what’s expected of you and if you can ignore that you’ll probably be much happier than most people.
[+] [-] DocSavage|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teekert|2 years ago|reply
I then thought: Perhaps for me the working life, life filled with intellectual challenges, may never loose its appeal?! I will just have to make sure to make work more fun by getting rid of the boring parts and focus on the the fun parts. Then, at 67, why would I stop if I got to an almost "pure fun" state? Of course what is fun is also determined by what you are good at so I have no idea what that "work" will look like.
Just a thought from a 41 y/o.
[+] [-] tough|2 years ago|reply
I'd say if you have the fire go for it fren
[+] [-] malux85|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bjelkeman-again|2 years ago|reply
You are not crazy, if it is something you are passionate about. I tend to work on things I expect to take a decade or so before I step off. I really don’t feel that being a bit older is a detriment. I work smarter than I did and I get to work on things that really mean something for me, and maybe the world at large.
I say, go for it and best of luck!
[+] [-] rkhacker|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fakedang|2 years ago|reply
I originally planned on getting my MBA from HBS, but due to some of the above circumstances, I decided to delay those plans. They were very understanding though.
[+] [-] onecommentman|2 years ago|reply
Should working to 100 be aspirational, or even thought desirable, for 99.9999% of the population? Of course not.
Is it admirable to continue to work in a job where others (who you may or may not respect) determine the nature of the work and work environment…for one millisecond longer than you must? I don’t think so, not beyond a personal sacrifice to be made if the work is of unique critical importance to the direct well-being of people and the planet. Even then, think really hard about it.
Is it admirable to take up a slot in a fulfilling career area when so many young deserving candidates are knocking at the door? Not to me.
Should you pursue your personal passions in any way that suits you in your golden years, when economic issues are not a priority? Absolutely.
But who is this self-identified “old person” who is only now turning 65? Just a young punk I say. Take your hippity-hoppity music someplace else…
[+] [-] spaceman_2020|2 years ago|reply
Meanwhile all of my peer group is obsessed with FIRE and dream of retiring early. All of us are also involved in pretty meaningless work that has no measurable impact on the world (five lines of code to a million line codebase is hardly world changing).
[+] [-] losteric|2 years ago|reply
My generation faces a different economic situation. I know people in academia that love what they do and dreamed of living a life like Rudy's. In practice, they're stuck - huge debts, dismally low post-grad wages, stuck renting, just hoping for a stable position (luck over merit). K-12 teachers, lifetime musicians, social services, even nurses in similar positions.
Is meaning worth that kind of struggle?
Not for me. I want to bake as a craft in an owned place of business, then go home to sleep in a bedroom I own. Big Tech is the means to that end. Wake up, Clock in, autopilot, clock out, live. Within ethical reason, I will take any boring meaningless job if it pays well enough.
Locals complain about Big Tech killing the quirky unique culture my city used to have... and I agree! But what was the alternative? Pursuing the baking craft on debt and leases, paycheck to paycheck, barely treading water without any savings? That sounds like living a dream, getting sucked dry by parasites. There are public policies that could bring back the vibrancy, but no one wants density or lower property values (a prerequisite for housing the people that seed a vibrant culture)...
[+] [-] gravypod|2 years ago|reply
I'm a SWE and I would love to FIRE one day but the goal of my retirement is very different from others. I want to buy some land with a house and a workshop, learn machining, chemistry, electrical engineering, etc and either contract for startups or start my own projects. Also, I'd like to bring some polish to the free software stack by rebuilding some foundational pieces of technology.
It is very hard to have the energy to do a full day of work, come home, and do a full night of work. Unfortunately, the market is not set up in a way where creative people (who can transform various verticals) can get funded to do good work.
[+] [-] TheAceOfHearts|2 years ago|reply
Retiring seems important for allowing younger generations to take their place. But if all you have is your work and you've lived for nothing more then I guess it makes sense to cling onto it until the end.
[+] [-] atrettel|2 years ago|reply
I agree that many people do not find much meaning in their work, but most people also do not make as much money as software engineers do. Most people cannot fathom retiring early. It simply is impossible. A lot of software engineers are going to realize that, hey, if I save up and invest money aggressively for roughly 10 to 15 years, I will have enough to live comfortably for the rest of my life without having to do work that I do not like. However, most professions do not make nearly enough money to achieve the goal of retiring early, so they really have no reason to discuss or even ponder early retirement. It's never gonna come up.
[+] [-] r3trohack3r|2 years ago|reply
Personally, I’m pursuing FIRE for the freedom to choose my work regardless of how much (or even if) it pays. Decoupling my work from market incentives.
I don’t consider retirement to be sitting around doing nothing. It’s waking up and choosing my own path. It’s freedom.
[+] [-] lisper|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] armchairhacker|2 years ago|reply
I’m currently in academia, so I don’t make that much money but fortunately do make enough. And I get to work on stuff which isn’t quite what I’d like, but close enough; and the job isn’t very demanding and I have free time, so I can also do the kind of work that I want. I do want more stability though, better income means I can save money and academia is opaque and uncertain
[+] [-] robotnikman|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anyfactor|2 years ago|reply
I add like to sense of stability there as well. If there is the nature unpredictability involved, waking up everyday is quite a challenge. Unless you consider unpredictability into your framework, getting paid to do things you love doing can be quite difficult. The person has achieved the highest accomplishment in his field, he has tenure and thus from the outside perspective he is living a much more stable and routine life.
[+] [-] paulcole|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Barrin92|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] valgor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yMEyUyNE1|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MagicMoonlight|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrtksn|2 years ago|reply
I wonder what people like Peter Thiel have to say about it, would he consider Rudy Marcus a "winner", maybe bigger one than himself? I recall something about Thiel looking down on the life choices and motivations of scientists.
[+] [-] Kamq|2 years ago|reply
The people I know who look down on modern academics, tend to dislike a set of changes that started happening in the mid-late sixties and ramped up through at least the 2010s.
I'm not sure that's applicable to someone who got their PhD in 1946.
[+] [-] JumpinJack_Cash|2 years ago|reply
Who gives a fuck? He's just a guy, much like this guy is just a guy.
Don't waste space and give me your take as opposed to mentioning other people, because they are not here and they cannot debate, while you are and can.
[+] [-] julianeon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dctoedt|2 years ago|reply
Friendly amendment: You mean Peter Thiel, presumably?
[+] [-] shafiemukhre|2 years ago|reply
I like the work of Blueprint by Bryan Johnson, though it's not replicable for most and felt a bit too much. For now, my lifestyle include eating clean, weightlifting, cardio, and good sleep. This is it or there's more to it? Appreciate any other resources/readings to pursue a long life
[+] [-] ArcMex|2 years ago|reply
>“The main thing is finding something that you enjoy doing, that preferably doesn’t harm others, and that tests whatever aptitude one has, that tests one’s ingenuity,”
[+] [-] alpineidyll3|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpinJack_Cash|2 years ago|reply
But you cannot confine it to science and academia, rather it's the general background 'out there-ness' of the whole planet which then finds its way in various sectors.
In other words you don't get the Einsteins without the Hitlers and you don't get the Richard Feynmans without the Charlie Mansons
[+] [-] litoE|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ant6n|2 years ago|reply
[1] https://youtu.be/aI0euMFAWF8
[+] [-] herewulf|2 years ago|reply
You, sir, are winning that game. See you "at work" because in 59 years I also want to be productive still!
[+] [-] eclectic29|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] declan_roberts|2 years ago|reply
Apart then that I have a very fun and rewarding hobby: growing heirloom apple trees and making my own cider.
Nothing wrong with working, but I’ll be glad when I never have a google calendar reminder again.
[+] [-] okasaki|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samyok|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thenerdhead|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mint2|2 years ago|reply
After a certain point the focus should no longer be on doing work first hand, but should be working to help, mentor and advise others to provide them a path instead of occupying the top.
Fostering the next generations should be the goal, not occupying career space until the grave.
[+] [-] manjalyc|2 years ago|reply
Although from the sentiment in this thread I guess that makes me the minority. I’m also not a Nobel laureate, to each their own I guess.
[+] [-] lambda|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] selimthegrim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Alex3917|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teleforce|2 years ago|reply
[1] 100 Year Old Dr. Howard Tucker : "Retirement is the Enemy of Longevity":
https://boomingencore.com/en/article/100-year-old-dr-howard-...