> It’s not hard to see how tDCS could pose some ethical considerations, though.
Only if you're primed by your culture to blanch at transhumanism.
> What if some students can afford tDCS kits, but others can’t?
What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't? This is one of the silliest purported ethical issues I've ever seen, but it consistently gets contemplating nods from those pretending to be wise, so long as we're talking about a new, scary technology, and not a mundane, accepted reality.
And it also ignores that a lot of these interventions seem to have U-shaped curves: the smartest benefit least. Iodization shifted averages up by like 13 IQ points - and did little or nothing for the smartest people since they didn't have iodine deficiency almost by definition. Modafinil, ritalin, or nootropics - all have similar results. This even holds true with the elderly, where interventions almost always report strikingly larger results than in young people at the peak of their intelligence.
To the extent that class issues genuinely match up, these interventions ought to be greeted, especially as this tDCS is cheaper than I remember my programmable TI-84 calculator in high school being!
>What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't?
Lots of people worry a great deal about these things as well, and would see tDCS as just another factor on that list, making the whole situation worse.
It doesn't sound exactly expensive though, so the point is kind of moot.
Some are primed to blanch at transhumanism; Some are primed to accept a class-based social hierarchy as simply mundane and not an ethical issue.
Every new privilege granted to the top socioeconomic class is an appropriate opportunity to ask the question "why solve this problem instead of improving peoples' lives by tackling inequality?" The answer can be that one is simply working on what one is good at. However that answer doesn't mean the question is silly or appropriate to sideline.
As an EE, I was pretty sure I could disprove this, with a quick look at conductivities of bone vs muscle. My theory being that most of the electric current would travel through the scalp, and not pass through the skull to the brain.
I found this link, however, which is pretty interesting, that shows conductivities of various tissue types, if anybody is interested. It looks like the skull is not much of an electrical barrier.
If the skull was an insulator it'd make EEG really hard. Not saying EEG is easy, but if you can record brain signals (which are very small) I'd think that dc could be having some effect.
From Wikipedia about EEG:
> A typical adult human EEG signal is about 10µV to 100 µV in amplitude when measured from the scalp and is about 10–20 mV when measured from subdural electrodes.
A cautionary tale. I'm getting a skin graft on Monday after I gave myself 1% full thickness burns with 3 x 9v batteries. I'm a paraplegic and I fell asleep with electrodes on my back so I'd didn't feel anything but awoke to some pretty nasty burns. I completely underestimated the risk of hurting myself.
Where both electrodes on your back? Did you use some conductive gel gloop? Was this a dc or an ac signal? Why 3 batteries? Where they in series or parallel?
Are the measured effects of tDCS really large enough to outweigh any effects from confirmation bias and statistical anomalies? Were the tests performed double-blind using placebo units?
This study (paywalled) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910... shows learning increasing with an increase in applied current, at least — 'This relationship between current strength and learning as measured by change in performance with training was well predicted by a linear model of current strength (r = 0.437, p = 0.0015). This suggests that there was a strong relationship between the amount of current administered during training and the amount of learning, within the range of current strengths tested here.'
Gotta agree with the placebo question here. When I'm having a really excellent learning day, it scares me how fast I learn. When I'm not, a 9V battery to the head doesn't sound like the worst idea...
At the risk of appealing to authority, I have to assume that if DARPA is using it to train snipers, they know it works whether it's due to the tDCS or mental priming as mentioned below. Obviously, from a theoretical standpoint it's important to know why it's working but from a lifehacking/making better snipers/learning Perl/selling $99 tDCS kits standpoint, it doesn't matter how it works, only that it does.
If you're a student do a search for tdcs in your libraries online catalog. There's tons of journal articles and studies about it! It's all pretty interesting stuff, just be prepared for lots of phd language..
Thanks for the love. The kickstarter should be starting soon. Also a full schematic will be posted around the same time if anyone wants to order the parts themselves.
I've been fascinated by all of the articles posted on here about tDCS, so I definitely signed up. I'm willing to pay $99 for a device that's probably worth $10 in parts, so long as its easy to use, easy to assemble, and works. Besides, if it works, I wouldn't mind starting my own business selling pre-built tDCS machines.
I was about to order the kit for the heck of it, until I saw the "meme picture" on their order page.
I am not going to give my money in exchange for a product I'll trust with my health to a company that thinks "U LEARNED RUBY? Y TAKE SO LONG" is proper/fitting advertisement.
At the risk of being downvoted, after the reading all the comments here, disappointingly, it appears P.T. Barnum's often quoted remark (yes I'm aware he may not have said it, irrelevant) about suckers and being born every minute, is especially applicable to HNers. Maybe it's some kind of "too smart for their own good" kind of phenomenon (getting into this business of current regulators and all this jibber jabber); but, perhaps that is just self-serving.
So, some electrodes (easily available for TENS machines, or you could go more high-tech); conductive gel; one 9v battery; one 4500 ohm resistor; (or probably two batteries and a current regulator).
Does anyone have a map of cathode / anode electrode positions?
See that it can be an interesting concept. Look at the article "mmm why not". Click on GoFlow.com link, see the meme in the front page. It's a bad one. Close page, will never come back.
Given that we have good evidence that this technology is safe and remarkably effective, is it ethical to NOT deploy this technology on those government executives on whose decision-making and information-processing ability American lives depend?
[+] [-] mistercow|14 years ago|reply
Only if you're primed by your culture to blanch at transhumanism.
> What if some students can afford tDCS kits, but others can’t?
What if some students can afford college, computers, calculators, tutoring, study guides, etc. but others can't? This is one of the silliest purported ethical issues I've ever seen, but it consistently gets contemplating nods from those pretending to be wise, so long as we're talking about a new, scary technology, and not a mundane, accepted reality.
[+] [-] gwern|14 years ago|reply
To the extent that class issues genuinely match up, these interventions ought to be greeted, especially as this tDCS is cheaper than I remember my programmable TI-84 calculator in high school being!
[+] [-] JonnieCache|14 years ago|reply
Lots of people worry a great deal about these things as well, and would see tDCS as just another factor on that list, making the whole situation worse.
It doesn't sound exactly expensive though, so the point is kind of moot.
[+] [-] sp332|14 years ago|reply
I think they meant the stigma of "cheating" or somehow getting something without working for it. I think you're right though.
[+] [-] thwest|14 years ago|reply
Every new privilege granted to the top socioeconomic class is an appropriate opportunity to ask the question "why solve this problem instead of improving peoples' lives by tackling inequality?" The answer can be that one is simply working on what one is good at. However that answer doesn't mean the question is silly or appropriate to sideline.
[+] [-] godfreykfc|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pdx|14 years ago|reply
I found this link, however, which is pretty interesting, that shows conductivities of various tissue types, if anybody is interested. It looks like the skull is not much of an electrical barrier.
http://iopscience.iop.org/0031-9155/54/16/002/pdf/0031-9155_...
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply
From Wikipedia about EEG:
> A typical adult human EEG signal is about 10µV to 100 µV in amplitude when measured from the scalp and is about 10–20 mV when measured from subdural electrodes.
[+] [-] driverdan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dia80|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply
Where both electrodes on your back? Did you use some conductive gel gloop? Was this a dc or an ac signal? Why 3 batteries? Where they in series or parallel?
May I also ask what your device is used for?
Apologies for the interrogation!
(Good Luck with the grafts btw.)
[+] [-] finnw|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] achy|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] njs12345|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve-howard|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotch_drinker|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arscan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bicknergseng|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|14 years ago|reply
and found resistor values by tinkering in simulator (I'm a noob) and I arrived at this:
http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+5.0E-6+10.200277308269...
Now time to check how it works in the real world. ;-)
[+] [-] cmwright|14 years ago|reply
tDCS has also been found to be effective in treating major despression (http://www.brainstimulation.columbia.edu/doc/journal_club/pa...)
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply
They had a tiny sample size of 40 people, split into 3 groups.
I agree that it'd be great if there was a lot more, and better, research into this.
To answer your question: I'd be happy to plug myself into a $99 device, so long as it was built competently.
[+] [-] raarky|14 years ago|reply
If it has any effect then the side effects would be my first major concern.
[+] [-] ngonzal|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattais|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mbijon|14 years ago|reply
Forget about sign-ups, this is well enough organized to attract pre-purchases (plus I want one sooner).
[+] [-] mattais|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thinkdevcode|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ComputerGuru|14 years ago|reply
I am not going to give my money in exchange for a product I'll trust with my health to a company that thinks "U LEARNED RUBY? Y TAKE SO LONG" is proper/fitting advertisement.
[+] [-] thedangler|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] draggnar|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dinkumthinkum|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adammichaelc|14 years ago|reply
Here's a review on the topic from Nature: http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110413/full/472156a.html
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply
Does anyone have a map of cathode / anode electrode positions?
[+] [-] draggnar|14 years ago|reply
also there is reddit.com/r/tdcs for more info
[+] [-] pchivers|14 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-20_system_(EEG)
[+] [-] victork2|14 years ago|reply
See that it can be an interesting concept. Look at the article "mmm why not". Click on GoFlow.com link, see the meme in the front page. It's a bad one. Close page, will never come back.
[+] [-] barrybe|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sdfjkl|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] albertzeyer|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] finnw|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] Tenoke|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djtriptych|14 years ago|reply
Given that we have good evidence that this technology is safe and remarkably effective, is it ethical to NOT deploy this technology on those government executives on whose decision-making and information-processing ability American lives depend?
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply