[bamfly]

> We believe in abundance because of millennia of life experience incorrectly or not.

It's only not been near-universal to experience at least one severe famine that kills many people you know, in a full human lifespan, in the Western and (relatively—this goes back a while) developed world, since like 1600 (thanks, potatoes and corn!).

Even then, wasting away hungry for entire seasons was still something you were pretty likely experience a few times. Only industrial nitrogen production mostly ended that. Luckily, malaria and cholera and such kept the number of mouths to feed in check, LOL.

The past was horrible.

[brightlancer]

> It's only not been near-universal to experience at least one severe famine that kills many people you know, in a full human lifespan, in the Western and (relatively—this goes back a while) developed world, since like 1600 (thanks, potatoes and corn!).

That's phrased that kinda weird, so am I correct that it means: "Before circa 1600, it was near universal that in one's life they would experience severe famine that kills many people you know" ?

I think that's too strong of a claim. If someone survived infancy and childhood, they often lived a decent lifespan (though childbirth and war killed many adult women and men, respectively). I don't think "severe famine" was so common that almost everyone would experience it at least once.

This isn't something I've studied so I'm going off the small bits I've read; is there anything to support that claim?

[WalterBright]

The US was the first country to eliminate the specter of famine around 1800. Thanks to free markets.

[bamfly]

Free markets do a fine job of justifying their value with straight facts, no need to reach like that. Apply whatever you're considering free markets to other places & times, and it wouldn't have had the same outcome. It took a lot of things coming together, but most of them were scientific advances or just luck (new world plants exist and are awesome, was a really big one)

[webnrrd2k]

I don't think free markets are the ultimate solution. For example, the Irish Potato Famine was made worse by absentee landlords selling potatoes as a cash export crop, contributing to the single-crop dependence and the overall famine.

Similar dynamics occur in bananna republics, the congo, etc... Free markets are great for wealthy countries with lots of functioning social and political institutions.

Free markets have been great at lifting many, many people out of poverty. However, unrestricted free markets can have horrible consequences. Just google for a few examples. Free markets work with functioning legal and social systems. I don't think it's fair to characterize the elimination of poverty as solely due to free markets.

[viewtransform]

Free markets and the labour of 1/5th the population working in slavery.

[User23]

Are you sure it wasn't thanks to an absolutely huge amount of arable land?

[jychang]

American famines existed long after the year 1800. You ever heard of the Dust Bowl? The Grapes of Wrath?

[sharemywin]

too bad we're headed back to feudalism and based on the above comments mass famine too.