If you want a free mindfulness app you should consider searching for the one developed by the US Department of Veteran Affairs on your platform's app store. It usually ranks very low on the list because not many people know about it and because all the other apps market themselves heavily.
Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.
Am I the only one who thinks meditation with an app is super hilariously weird? Its hard to explain without falling for too much cynism, but... the topic is mindfulness, not "have my phone tell me what to do next". If you are unable to mediate without the help of an app, start here, instead of pretending you are meditating just because some app tells you every step along the way.
Also free and relevant - a link to WHO's guide for "unhooking from difficult thoughts and feelings". There's audio you can download. It's not even an app.
I find meditation, mindfulness on the one hand and apps, smartphones, and technology, on the other, to be a grotesque contradiction in terms. Obviously I know this is not a widespread opinion.
Mindfulness meditation is not merely a feel-good exercise or some mystical ritual. It's a practice that allows us to regularly enter a state of mind where we're not consumed by our incessant thoughts, which are constantly evaluating, reflecting on the past, or worrying about the future. This mental chatter is often the root cause of much of our stress.
Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing.
Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind.
This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense.
It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved.
Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions.
This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.
Cioran, in effect: The blank time of meditation is, in truth, the only "full" time. We should never blush to accumulate vacant moments—vacant in appearance, filled in fact. To meditate is a supreme leisure, whose secret has been lost.
Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific.
It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West.
The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy.
Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are:
- Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally.
- Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind.
- Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss.
And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad.
My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)
You seem very fond of making huge generalizations about people based on their country of origin.
The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off.
If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion).
Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.
There are the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama and there is the religion Buddhism created by his followers. He said: This is my truth, see for yourself if it is true for you too. This is the reason i take him seriously, in contrast to the monotheistic myths that all claim to have the only truth.
> Understanding emptiness
The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me.
Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive.
There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid:
> Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. Of course here articial part.
You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.
There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing.
Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this.
They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'.
On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'.
Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom').
I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.
Breathing practices objectively have an effect on our body and nobody can counter this.
Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it.
Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.
Mindfulness meditation may reduce stress levels, but only temporary. Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms.
I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.
User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies.
Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"?
How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention.
So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
A lot of times, you simply can't solve the source of stress or it takes a lot of time before you're able to. How do I solve having cancer or any other health issue? Like most things in life, it's not something that's solvable overnight. Why not reduce the emotional/psychological suffering you feel before you can actually solve the problem? In fact, that reduction in emotional distress can help you find better solutions to whatever problems you're dealing with. I don't see any downsides unless for some reason you think meditation is supposed to be the solution to life's problems, when it's just a method for handling your inner life.
You're partially correct in that it does not focus on the source of stress. Rather, it focuses on the Source of peace.
As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort.
My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
Maybe the underlying issue is commonly that one worry about things out of ones control.
I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office"
Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting.
There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
I agree. Sometimes mindfulness may reveal lies to oneself however, sometimes I have been tied to an identity which in itself keeps me tied to a system which oppresses me. Relieving myself of the identity allows me to leave the system which does not serve me.
Stress is all about perception. With mindfulness you can practice changing the way you look at things. If you practice zooming out of things that induce fear and see a bigger picture this will generally reduce stress.
The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage.
Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely.
Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively.
Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper:
> mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes.
Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.
If your body is ill and needs surgery, the aftermath of the surgery can make you feel worse for a while.
Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed.
If you're so overworked that you don't think you have time for ten minutes of meditation every day, then your time management is poor and needs a re-evaluation of priorities.
Do you say the same thing about the gym, or sleep time? Are you too busy to rest in bed for 7-8 hours a night?
You can still meditate with focus on breathing for even 1 minute. It may not be as effective as if you had more time, but I used to do that on the bus to work or even at work when taking a break so you can still do something.
Knee_Pain|2 years ago
Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.
unmole|2 years ago
hetzenmat|2 years ago
lynx23|2 years ago
carvink|2 years ago
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240003927
Here's more detail about how it was tested. https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/2022-apri...
037|2 years ago
throw_pm23|2 years ago
submeta|2 years ago
Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing.
Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind.
This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense.
It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved.
Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions.
This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.
50|2 years ago
toshk|2 years ago
It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West.
The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy.
Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are:
- Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally.
- Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind.
- Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss.
And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad.
My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)
ShamelessC|2 years ago
The "western way" is only (strictly) in opposition to Buddhism in the narrative you are subscribing to. The reality is that many Americans are acutely aware of just how toxic aspects of mainstream American culture. It is probably best to approach debate from this point of view, particularly if you want to convince people rather than simply pissing them off.
If someone says Buddhism is not for them - drop it. You don't understand their problems better than they do and your religion - like all religions - requires an irrational leap of faith whether you like it or not. This is off putting to a lot of people who favor rationality - particularly those who are so fed up with the aforementioned mainstream culture I describe (but don't subscribe to your religion).
Just to clarify again, my contention is not that you're arguing incorrectly per se. It is that you are being overconfident and righteous, which appears smug and indicates you aren't _really_ looking to empathize with contradicting points of view. It's rude. If I came up to you and told you about how Jesus was going to change your life, smiling the whole time and speaking only of the positives you might feel similarly? I don't know.
scns|2 years ago
> Understanding emptiness
The other points are valid to me, this one belongs in the realm of metaphysics for me.
Buddha said a lot of good things IMHO, but very questionable stuff too. "Monasteries are allowed to own slaves, individual monks not." for example. If you mention that, Buddhists get uneasy and/or defensive.
There is a nice App called Buddha Quotes on F-Droid. I recommend to install it via Foxy Droid:
https://f-droid.org/repo/nya.kitsunyan.foxydroid_4.apk
FrustratedMonky|2 years ago
>"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy."
See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.
fuzztester|2 years ago
Any links or book names to read more about this?
varispeed|2 years ago
You'll easily become a victim of people who exploit "caretakers". You'll become an unpaid servant. People need to look after themselves first.
thoui242342343|2 years ago
There is a systematic effort to plagiarize from Indian traditions and then claim them to be rediscoveries of the West, inline with historical racist-supremacist constructions. You can see this historically across Mathematics, Astronomy and Medicine in very concrete terms. That they're now doing it with Yoga, Vipassana, Ayurveda etc. is quite disappointing.
Andrew Huberman at Stanford has an entire lab (and a very popular podcast) designed to rip off Indian traditions to the point where news-releases will neither mention the ripped off name, nor even mention India. The Americans will at-best mention 'South Asia' as if Pakistan/Bangladesh, who are actively genociding followers of India's native faiths, were creators of this.
They've also tried patenting Basmati and Turmeric and many other things. It's amusing to see 'alt-right' geniuses sell things like Ashwagandha/Turmeric and other Ayurvedic nutraceuticals to their 'Murcan audiences' while hating on Hindus as 'satan worshippers who are destroying US'.
On a more important note: this raises a big point. Modern 'Western culture' is not universal, but is in fact very much Christian and with that, has inherited its extremely deep-rooted and vicious irrational hate for so-called 'devil worshipping pagans'.
Western academics will never talk about cultures they've marked for destruction either. Very much like the Anglo-media almost never lets out the real reason for why they are going for war on random far-off countries (it's not 'democracy and freedom').
I moved out of the US when I realized all this and today generally avoid US/Europe, both for business and travel.
Knee_Pain|2 years ago
Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it.
Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.
miroljub|2 years ago
I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.
TekMol|2 years ago
Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"?
How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this?
The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention.
So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
jstx1|2 years ago
This only makes sense if you assume that being stressed is a correct and useful response to your environment.
Sakos|2 years ago
NoZebra120vClip|2 years ago
As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort.
My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
wodenokoto|2 years ago
I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office"
Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting.
There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
FrustratedMonky|2 years ago
This isn't bad. One can take medicine to reduce a fever to help the body heal.
Nobody says "but reducing the fever is worthless, that is just treating a symptom".
Frummy|2 years ago
SoKamil|2 years ago
molly0|2 years ago
yadingus|2 years ago
rjprins|2 years ago
The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage.
Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely.
Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively.
Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper:
> mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes.
Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.
guerrilla|2 years ago
No, stress is actually physiological. What your saying is limited to specific sources of stress.
bitterblotter|2 years ago
https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/
If you scroll down there is a simple guide and some relaxing music. The site can also be installed as a PWA and added to your homescreen / desktop.
spaceheater|2 years ago
[Too Much Mindfulness Can Worsen Your Mental Health] https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-re...
yadingus|2 years ago
Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed.
Quality, not quantity.
wodenokoto|2 years ago
illwrks|2 years ago
yadingus|2 years ago
If you can, meditate for 10 minutes a day.
If you're too busy, then meditate for 30 minutes a day.
NoZebra120vClip|2 years ago
Do you say the same thing about the gym, or sleep time? Are you too busy to rest in bed for 7-8 hours a night?
vouaobrasil|2 years ago