No, no the whole idea about building a floating incubator. It's the fact that immigrant & visa laws are so ridiculously outlandish that it's perfectly conceivable to devise an elaborate and expensive "hacks" to circumvent them. Along with IP, this is probably the most visible area where U.S. law is stiffing innovation rather than fostering it.
IANAL, but I probably have more experience than many regarding immigration issues.
If you sell everything you have to live on this ship just outside of the US to sort of get access to a part of the US that the current visa system says you can't have access to, you may find you have a hard time demonstrating you have non-immigrant intent when trying to go to shore for meetings or R&R.
Keep in mind that every entry to the US is at the discretion of whatever border agent you happen to get that day, and pre-approved visa in your passport is merely a guide and not a guarantee of entry.
So you incorporate on the BVIs or a similar tax heaven, because you don't want to pay taxes. You are not even using the infrastructure of a country, so that doesn't even feel morally wrong. But crucial parts of your company lay within the USA (servers, some investors, consultants, bank accounts..). There have been tax cases before (at least in Europe) where it has been argued that a server equals a permanent business establishment and therefore is taxable (I can not find an English language article on the quick but I remember a case where a german hat incorporated in Cyprus and used german servers). So that would be a mess.
2. Bank accounts
Does the country of the boats registration or the country you choose to incorporate have a stable banking system and currency? Can you get a Paypal (or whatever payment provider) account for this bank account? Or will you go for a US bank, which again leads us to (1), also I dont know how hard it is to open a bank account in the US on the name of a foreign company with no entity in the US. What will potential costumers think about bank accounts in county x? What happens if the US tightens rules on money laundry, making your transfers a pain?
Many questions will have to be solved on the way. I really hope the project succeeds, especially if it pushes US law-makers to think about their visas.
1. You don't have to be a citizen to incorporate in the US. Y Combinator requires everyone to incorporate in the US regardless of their home country. It doesn't seem like Blueseed will have a similar requirement, but they should probably advise their startups to do so for the sake of it much easier to get investments.
2. Once you have a US corporation, you can have a US bank account.
So while the issues you raise could be problems for some companies, it's actually fairly straightforward and cheap (there are costs to your agents in Delware and a few similar items).
I too see accounting as a hurdle but think customer validation might suffer as well. "Get off the boat" actually has a nicer ring than "get out of the building" but will obviously be harder. As much as I love hackathons, there are fringe benefits to mixing with normal-folk on occasion. I can't explain how much I've learned from overhearing women explain Pintrest to one-another.
I'm not sure i'd want to be on a boat full of programmers and entrepreneurs. Just imagine the sort of arguments one could get yourself into.
Also how will order be enforced? One cannot assume everyone will be nice and benevolent. What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
> What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
This problem has been solved for cruise ships. I don't know the details of how, but surely the same issues and solutions apply pretty directly.
what's the difference with your lead programmare having a motorcycle accident at 2.00 a.m. while coming back from a long coding session (or just from a party)?
Pay for some private military contractors, doctors, and a standby helicopter. Split the cost.
EDIT: If PMC are too militant, just any lenient security company would do. I don't really see how this is a problem. Think of it as a big festival with less alcohol and run for a longer time period.
Actually this idea sounds to good to be true. Almost like a geek "The Boat That Rocked", but at the end, immigration or customs could be the pain in the ass for the residents of this ship. Not so much on how feasible it is, but more on the "they will make life hell for the residents on some kind of blacklist".
It all depends on the mood of third parties.
But actually this is the greatest hack to the immigration laws available.
I strongly suspect the ICE people will be relatively favorable toward this -- it's not skirting any of the laws they care about (drugs, terrorism). You can EASILY win the PR battle to say this is creating wealth in the USA. All the ship administrators need to do is run a law abiding California-registered corp on shore which pays all costs for a private dock, etc., and to comply fully with SOLAS, USCG, and such -- allowing inspections freely, and generally being respectful toward the local maritime community. The big issue is going to be whether existing customs/immigration facilities have the kind of hours the blueseed people want; if not, they have to pay for extra federal service.
I ran tech ops on Sealand 2000-2002 (which is basically "The Platform That Rocked"), and due to a great relationship with the local pilots and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, there were zero problems with them. This wasn't the case in the 60s/70s, which is why they got treated badly.
The demographic of startup founders is severely lacking in gender and racial diversity. I don't know if I would want to go for months only seeing 1000 similar people (mostly men) with very similar occupations. In the end, entrepreneurs are people too and this would be a very bizarre society.
You can go on "shore leave" as often as a US tourist visa allows. I recall having read in a previous mention of Blueseed that they could set up connections to ports in Mexico and Canada as well, although I'm not perfectly sure how that would work - a ferry would take a long time. Seaplanes perhaps?
I'm male but both my cofounders are female. One of whom is not a US citizen and thus to be in "silicon valley" this "boat" would be the best option for us.
Here in Startup Chile, a lot of the companies are run by women or involve women-- I'd say the gender ratio (completely unscientific) is something like %60 men, not %90 men.
This is a really interesting idea, but they will have to be very careful about the culture and laws they enforce, especially with regards to wages and working hours.
Who pays the rent? What if the team member wants a private cabin and not sweatshop style accommodation? (Maybe I am thinking about the wrong demographic?)
- What happens when you want to leave and your visa is expired/revoked ? This sound like a place where you could really get stuck, with all the associated potential for abuse.
- They can make a killing on the price of coffee, food and entertainment for all these people.
Minor quibble: the 1GBps link seems small distributed over all the companies/person they imagine.
In the slide deck, it mentions that to get onto the boat, you need to put down a deposit to cover travel to a country of your choice. One would hope that they'd run a quick sanity check that each person's chosen country was one they had residency or a visa for (I can see someone only stumping up enough money to get to shore, but not actually having a US visa...)
Minor quibble? The 1Gbps (notice the small 'b') is a f*cking disaster. My ADSL connection has about 10Gbps (1.2MB/s), and that is so-so. Imagine you are working and need to download a 600MB Linux ISO, or something like that. Disaster. Makes one question their logic and the whole project.
I vote for buying an old house in Cabo San Lucas and setting up a kick ass startup hub in front of the beach with all the modern amenities like huge teleconferencing walls and all. People could just cross over for a weekend on a tourist visa just for the really important face to face meetings.
This is probably quite an excellent idea. We ran our startup for three months from central mexico. It was great in every way that matters. The cost of living was really cheap. The neighborhood was really a lot safer than the ones in america. Nobody ripped us off or tried to or overcharged us. Everyone was pretty nice. Only downside was the internet sucked where we were staying but that could be rectified I'm sure.
IF there's an airport, might even be close enough for people to come down in their gulf streams for board meetings. (I don't give a damn about being close to silicon valley, but do like the idea of working near there startups.)
So, the big sale here is the 30 minutes to... the shore of Santa Cruz? From there to Palo Alto is another hour (or more)? Unless they mean the Ano Nuevo Bay, which you'd have to drive even longer to get into the valley.
The real cultural wins they talk about in this slide deck don't come from the formal interactions planned ahead, but the random ones. The other day I was having an americano while doing some research in a cafe I'd never been to, and I accidentally got into a conversation with someone I'd never met before about writing compilers, changing python syntax for domain specific VM performance, and our favorite keyboards. The conversation has sparked at least a week of creativity and thought.
Anyone who's worked in technology outside of Silicon Valley (RTP, what up!) knows just how amazingly drastic the difference is. You're not going to be able to co-opt it on a boat 1.5-2 hours away.
But maybe they will. I'm going to bet against this, but I hope I lose my money. Success being a function of birthplace and parental wealth/race is a tragedy.
It's not going to duplicate SV, but it does make the world a lot smaller. You could organize regular visits from local digeratii and VC's, surely better than being on the other side of the world in a different timezone where your most useful interaction is with the local grocer.
Can someone elaborate on how this is better than working remotely from back home? It doesn't sound like there's going to be a lot of action on the silicon deck, with people always coming and going to the shore. Why don't they just setup a remote mini incubator in a lawless region of the world where people can join online?
Though I'm not sure about the "lawless" part, I like that idea more.
I've always found the blueseed idea backwards. Come on, live on a boat just to be able to work in some country? I wouldn't do that unless I had no other choice. And it's horribly inefficient and expensive too. I surely hope that petty geography issues will become less important in the future, as international cooperation through the internet increases.
This looks like a insanely juicy target for pirates and drug lords. Incredibly easy target to take hostage, with lots of cash, rich people, passwords, intel, hardware, and lots and lots of real state to grow coca or poppy. Static, big, protected by few and very stressed PMC, and no fear whatever of retaliation. If they resist, just threaten to sink it down with one torpedo, or a cheap SCUD.
Hell, this is looking like an elevator pitch for a "counter-startup". Anyone interested?
International waters or not, who would be so stupid to pull such a stunt so close to US territory? Or, in fact, close to any nation with a sizable navy.
Also, we do not know which flag they will sail under, but it my bet is that they will adopt the US flag. My understanding is that such an act would be an act of piracy against the USA itself.
Furthermore, they wouldn't be THAT far from land. Even in the impossible event that they government turned a blind eye to the fate of the ship, they would not want some armed terrorist skimming their borders.
While the boat wouldn't be far from the land, any potential attackers would be an ocean away. I assume the boat would be fairly safe. It is not like they'll be sailing next to Somalia.
What is bad about this idea: the weather. As a kid, I used to sail about once a year from San Francisco Bay to San Diego. The weather off shore at the planned site is not always so great, based on my personal experience.
Otherwise, an interesting idea!
I have done some good and creative work at sea. On the last cruise my wife and I took which lasted 25 days, many days were spent at sea and I found the public areas like the library were great places to both write and do some work. On sea days, spending 3 or 4 hours a day "working" didn't detract at all from enjoying the trip - given my tastes, it made the trip better. Except for shore tours which can be very expensive, the costs of spending long periods of time on cruise ships is not as much as you might think: the trick is to make reservations at the last minute and get jaw-dropping good deals.
What I am saying is that some people would probably really enjoy living and working on Blueseed, perhaps even some US citizens who want to partner with others in startups.
You are trying to hard and you are doing it wrong.
Instead of doing this why don't you contact your congress people or whatever you guys have in the US and try to change the immigration laws ?
I'd rather cut my wrists than to spent my time on a boat full of prima-donas that want to "change the world".
I would love to move to SF one day, but I want to have living quality as much that country as to offer ,which isn't that good if you come from Europe, let's be honest, but it's probably one of the best places to live in the US, and not some artificial thingy floating in sea,
Again, if the US doesn't want us there because of our potential/skills, well then, I suggest we stop putting it in this big pedestal and start creating our own startups on our own countries or countries that want us there.
Question: Does YC fund foreign startups, if not, why ?
Is there a place in europe where you can have the same level of freedom and entrepreneurial atmosphere that is not choked by bureaucracy and regulation? Cause i 'd love to move there, even without VC money.
I've lived in Silicon Valley and did not like it at all. The population density is really high, the rudeness coefficient is really high as well. Everyone I knew was on anti-depressants just because the environment was so tough.
Contrast that with berlin-- a much more healthy lifestyle can be had there, at a lot less cost (both financial and emotional).
The one thing silicon valley has going for it is sand hill road. But I think venture capital is a lot less important now than it used to be-- at least it should be.
Getting a bunch of people who want to create startups together in a geographic area will attract the money eventually.
What countries support this idea? (I'd live in Berlin right now if german immigration wasn't a bear.)
First of all, this certainly sounds like an interesting idea, regardless of whether or not it comes to fruition.
However, I don't know him personally, but everything I've ever read that was written by Peter Thiel had a really obnoxious tone. Assuming he's like that in real life (and it's possible he isn't), I can't imagine people wanting to be stuck on a boat with him. I'm dead serious. If he's just backing the project financially, I could really see it working. But if he's making appearances, his writing really makes him sound like the most arrogant SOB you could ever meet. I really could see this project failing if one too many stressed out entrepreneurs living in close quarters got into a yelling match with him.
So they are going to buy/build a 1,000 passenger ship (and a ferry, and a helicopter), fit it out top to toe with custom designs (including gym, pool, sports facilities, and apparently enough to keep you from going crazy), staff the thing (including security), maintain it, ship food (and people) back and forth from the mainland, etc.
And where exactly do they make their money? A bed on this thing is going to be mighty expensive....
If this works out, can we expect thousands of equivalent boats offshore of every desirable country in 10 years? What are the (legal or otherwise) limits?
I should read Ballard's "High Rise" before boarding this ship. Or maybe Lord Of The Flies.
I can picture the marauding feral packs of founders roaming the halls of the ship, ducking for cover behind burning barricades fashioned from Aeron chairs, hurling broken macbooks at interlopers from unfriendly decks.
This seems another in a category of proposals so grand and outlandish and controversial that a small team can make a tidy living for years researching & promoting something which will never happen. Conjure up a plan with a price tag having enough digits, and you'll attract enough interest to live on for a while.
Same category as the libertarian-utopia "Oceania" project, the billion-dollar indoor ski resort near Atlanta, the bridge spanning the Strait of Gibraltar, and a half-dozen mile-high skyscraper projects. 1% of 1% of $1,000,000,000 is nothing for someone who could move that kind of money, but it's enough to keep me happy for a while. So, we buy a used cruise ship, park it in international waters, and ... hey, for 1% of 1% of total cost I'll give you a workable plan.
[+] [-] Xion|14 years ago|reply
No, no the whole idea about building a floating incubator. It's the fact that immigrant & visa laws are so ridiculously outlandish that it's perfectly conceivable to devise an elaborate and expensive "hacks" to circumvent them. Along with IP, this is probably the most visible area where U.S. law is stiffing innovation rather than fostering it.
[+] [-] goatforce5|14 years ago|reply
If you sell everything you have to live on this ship just outside of the US to sort of get access to a part of the US that the current visa system says you can't have access to, you may find you have a hard time demonstrating you have non-immigrant intent when trying to go to shore for meetings or R&R.
http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1575&z=31
Keep in mind that every entry to the US is at the discretion of whatever border agent you happen to get that day, and pre-approved visa in your passport is merely a guide and not a guarantee of entry.
[+] [-] derda|14 years ago|reply
1. Taxes:
So you incorporate on the BVIs or a similar tax heaven, because you don't want to pay taxes. You are not even using the infrastructure of a country, so that doesn't even feel morally wrong. But crucial parts of your company lay within the USA (servers, some investors, consultants, bank accounts..). There have been tax cases before (at least in Europe) where it has been argued that a server equals a permanent business establishment and therefore is taxable (I can not find an English language article on the quick but I remember a case where a german hat incorporated in Cyprus and used german servers). So that would be a mess.
2. Bank accounts
Does the country of the boats registration or the country you choose to incorporate have a stable banking system and currency? Can you get a Paypal (or whatever payment provider) account for this bank account? Or will you go for a US bank, which again leads us to (1), also I dont know how hard it is to open a bank account in the US on the name of a foreign company with no entity in the US. What will potential costumers think about bank accounts in county x? What happens if the US tightens rules on money laundry, making your transfers a pain?
Many questions will have to be solved on the way. I really hope the project succeeds, especially if it pushes US law-makers to think about their visas.
[+] [-] anateus|14 years ago|reply
2. Once you have a US corporation, you can have a US bank account.
So while the issues you raise could be problems for some companies, it's actually fairly straightforward and cheap (there are costs to your agents in Delware and a few similar items).
edited for style and coherence
[+] [-] mseebach|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johncoogan|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jamesu|14 years ago|reply
Also how will order be enforced? One cannot assume everyone will be nice and benevolent. What happens in a medical emergency, can you get to the nearest hospital in time (assuming the onboard facilities are insufficient)? The lead programmer just fell overboard during a storm, what happens?
[+] [-] mseebach|14 years ago|reply
This problem has been solved for cruise ships. I don't know the details of how, but surely the same issues and solutions apply pretty directly.
[+] [-] davidw|14 years ago|reply
> Also how will order be enforced?
This all too easily lends itself to some pirate jokes, perhaps revolving around vim users being forced to walk the plank.
[+] [-] Ecio78|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] javert|14 years ago|reply
That's not really how large ships work.
[+] [-] zyfo|14 years ago|reply
Pay for some private military contractors, doctors, and a standby helicopter. Split the cost.
EDIT: If PMC are too militant, just any lenient security company would do. I don't really see how this is a problem. Think of it as a big festival with less alcohol and run for a longer time period.
[+] [-] cicloid|14 years ago|reply
It all depends on the mood of third parties.
But actually this is the greatest hack to the immigration laws available.
[+] [-] rdl|14 years ago|reply
I ran tech ops on Sealand 2000-2002 (which is basically "The Platform That Rocked"), and due to a great relationship with the local pilots and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, there were zero problems with them. This wasn't the case in the 60s/70s, which is why they got treated badly.
[+] [-] stcredzero|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sthatipamala|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mseebach|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nirvana|14 years ago|reply
Here in Startup Chile, a lot of the companies are run by women or involve women-- I'd say the gender ratio (completely unscientific) is something like %60 men, not %90 men.
[+] [-] nico_h|14 years ago|reply
Who pays the rent? What if the team member wants a private cabin and not sweatshop style accommodation? (Maybe I am thinking about the wrong demographic?)
- What happens when you want to leave and your visa is expired/revoked ? This sound like a place where you could really get stuck, with all the associated potential for abuse.
- They can make a killing on the price of coffee, food and entertainment for all these people.
Minor quibble: the 1GBps link seems small distributed over all the companies/person they imagine.
[+] [-] camtarn|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ypcx|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kilimanjaro|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] minimax|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nirvana|14 years ago|reply
IF there's an airport, might even be close enough for people to come down in their gulf streams for board meetings. (I don't give a damn about being close to silicon valley, but do like the idea of working near there startups.)
[+] [-] codemac|14 years ago|reply
The real cultural wins they talk about in this slide deck don't come from the formal interactions planned ahead, but the random ones. The other day I was having an americano while doing some research in a cafe I'd never been to, and I accidentally got into a conversation with someone I'd never met before about writing compilers, changing python syntax for domain specific VM performance, and our favorite keyboards. The conversation has sparked at least a week of creativity and thought.
Anyone who's worked in technology outside of Silicon Valley (RTP, what up!) knows just how amazingly drastic the difference is. You're not going to be able to co-opt it on a boat 1.5-2 hours away.
But maybe they will. I'm going to bet against this, but I hope I lose my money. Success being a function of birthplace and parental wealth/race is a tragedy.
[+] [-] SoftwareMaven|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] richardw|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tlrobinson|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zerostar07|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wladimir|14 years ago|reply
I've always found the blueseed idea backwards. Come on, live on a boat just to be able to work in some country? I wouldn't do that unless I had no other choice. And it's horribly inefficient and expensive too. I surely hope that petty geography issues will become less important in the future, as international cooperation through the internet increases.
[+] [-] lolcraft|14 years ago|reply
Hell, this is looking like an elevator pitch for a "counter-startup". Anyone interested?
[+] [-] outworlder|14 years ago|reply
Also, we do not know which flag they will sail under, but it my bet is that they will adopt the US flag. My understanding is that such an act would be an act of piracy against the USA itself.
Furthermore, they wouldn't be THAT far from land. Even in the impossible event that they government turned a blind eye to the fate of the ship, they would not want some armed terrorist skimming their borders.
While the boat wouldn't be far from the land, any potential attackers would be an ocean away. I assume the boat would be fairly safe. It is not like they'll be sailing next to Somalia.
[+] [-] mark_l_watson|14 years ago|reply
Otherwise, an interesting idea!
I have done some good and creative work at sea. On the last cruise my wife and I took which lasted 25 days, many days were spent at sea and I found the public areas like the library were great places to both write and do some work. On sea days, spending 3 or 4 hours a day "working" didn't detract at all from enjoying the trip - given my tastes, it made the trip better. Except for shore tours which can be very expensive, the costs of spending long periods of time on cruise ships is not as much as you might think: the trick is to make reservations at the last minute and get jaw-dropping good deals.
What I am saying is that some people would probably really enjoy living and working on Blueseed, perhaps even some US citizens who want to partner with others in startups.
[+] [-] phatbyte|14 years ago|reply
I'd rather cut my wrists than to spent my time on a boat full of prima-donas that want to "change the world".
I would love to move to SF one day, but I want to have living quality as much that country as to offer ,which isn't that good if you come from Europe, let's be honest, but it's probably one of the best places to live in the US, and not some artificial thingy floating in sea,
Again, if the US doesn't want us there because of our potential/skills, well then, I suggest we stop putting it in this big pedestal and start creating our own startups on our own countries or countries that want us there.
Question: Does YC fund foreign startups, if not, why ?
[+] [-] zerostar07|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pavelkaroukin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nirvana|14 years ago|reply
Contrast that with berlin-- a much more healthy lifestyle can be had there, at a lot less cost (both financial and emotional).
The one thing silicon valley has going for it is sand hill road. But I think venture capital is a lot less important now than it used to be-- at least it should be.
Getting a bunch of people who want to create startups together in a geographic area will attract the money eventually.
What countries support this idea? (I'd live in Berlin right now if german immigration wasn't a bear.)
[+] [-] dsrguru|14 years ago|reply
However, I don't know him personally, but everything I've ever read that was written by Peter Thiel had a really obnoxious tone. Assuming he's like that in real life (and it's possible he isn't), I can't imagine people wanting to be stuck on a boat with him. I'm dead serious. If he's just backing the project financially, I could really see it working. But if he's making appearances, his writing really makes him sound like the most arrogant SOB you could ever meet. I really could see this project failing if one too many stressed out entrepreneurs living in close quarters got into a yelling match with him.
[+] [-] twelvechairs|14 years ago|reply
And where exactly do they make their money? A bed on this thing is going to be mighty expensive....
[+] [-] richardw|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bloat|14 years ago|reply
I can picture the marauding feral packs of founders roaming the halls of the ship, ducking for cover behind burning barricades fashioned from Aeron chairs, hurling broken macbooks at interlopers from unfriendly decks.
Murder will be done on this boat.
[+] [-] bambax|14 years ago|reply
It seems the timeframe is very optimistic (1 year to find a boat and adapt it??) but if it works it will change the world.
[+] [-] phatbyte|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ctdonath|14 years ago|reply
Same category as the libertarian-utopia "Oceania" project, the billion-dollar indoor ski resort near Atlanta, the bridge spanning the Strait of Gibraltar, and a half-dozen mile-high skyscraper projects. 1% of 1% of $1,000,000,000 is nothing for someone who could move that kind of money, but it's enough to keep me happy for a while. So, we buy a used cruise ship, park it in international waters, and ... hey, for 1% of 1% of total cost I'll give you a workable plan.
[+] [-] seclorum|14 years ago|reply
Seriously though, wouldn't this be considered "economic terrorism" by the US Gov't, eventually, if it does well?