Interesting article, but isn't $75,000 a year pretty much slave wages in Manhattan? You could barely afford a small studio apartment for that much, and most likely need to live outside of downtown and commute in every day.
It's hard to live on $75k in Manhattan, but you can live fairly comfortably on that salary in other boroughs or NJ. I would be very surprised if the offer hadn't gone up substantially since this post was written. Nowadays, new grad offers for well-paying companies (Google, Facebook, etc.) are in the ~$100k range for salary, with a bunch of stock and signing bonus thrown in. Fog Creek wouldn't be getting the top 1% of talent if they weren't matching these offers.
Wages have gone up a lot since then, I would be very surprised if Fog Creek offered less $90,000 these days - that's about what most software companies offers start at. Heck, I hear that Facebook is offering $100,000 base salary for kids right out of school, so by all means they could be paying more. Also of note - the transition from $75,000 to $90,000 just means a wage increase of just shy of 4% per year, which seems expected.
Two people can live incredibly comfortably for $60,000 a year total. Just live in a studio in cheaper Manhattan or a one bedroom in queens. The median family income for nyc is about 54000.
This probably works well for Fog Creek, who have a small crew and very talented senior people (who, importantly, did not get recuited out of school). But I view this as problematic for larger companies. The core problem of course is that students aren't very good programmers yet. They can hack and solve problems, and have a handful of favorite technologies, but they won't have the breadth they need to be really good at things for a few years yet.
The danger is that if you then build a culture where everyone gets recruited out of school, everyone is swimming in the same pool with equally narrow skill sets and no one develops the required breadth. So you get "architects" who know their field really well but can barely write working code on a modern system.
This works great for the true elite who will learn this stuff on their own, of course. But even then recruiting from schools tends to incorrectly bias decisions on things like grades, which correlate at best weakly with hacking talent. You'll miss some of those targets who were slacking off in class working on their own projects.
Actually, some of the biggest of the big guns at Fog Creek did come straight from school. More than one product was built exclusively by people who never worked anywhere else. The whole point of the internship recruiting process is to correct for the high grades only bias.
>The danger is that if you then build a culture where everyone gets recruited out of school, everyone is swimming in the same pool with equally narrow skill sets and no one develops the required breadth. So you get "architects" who know their field really well but can barely write working code on a modern system.
In my experience, that kind of narrow hyperfocus is exactly what most companies actually want -- including startups. Some may think they want breadth, but they actually just want breadth within the narrow specialty they address.
I think Joel is giving his company a little too much credit.
Today's students, if they are really good, have much better opportunity than to work at Fog Creek. They are thinking of companies like Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Google, LinkedIn, etc. that are actually innovating and working on some of the most interesting problems and applications. Not creating VNC "Remote Assistance" clones and help desk software.
Fog Creek does create very good software. But game changing? Or well known? Most people outside of software development wouldn't be able to name an actual Fog Creek product.
I have to concur. Their primary claim to fame is Joel himself. I don't mean to denigrate their products either - and a new grad could certainly do worse - but there are more "meaningful" and challenging opportunities elsewhere (that also happen to pay more).
This is really insightful and a little ahead of its time, and a bunch of companies have picked up this kind of tactic recently, and not just in the software industry.
In September recruiting here at Western University, for example, a bunch of firms host their info sessions at a club, where it's open bar. But students are getting smarter here, and almost everyone looks for internships in third year. Thus, the companies have adapted and several have started recruiting second years. But more than that, firms like KPMG have started running summer programs, where they fly promising students down to Hollywood for an all expenses-paid vacation, to introduce them to the firm.
Let's see who's the first to offer to pay for tuition.
The US military has been offering ROTC scholarships that completely cover all college costs (at least at cheaper schools) for a long time. Of course they also include a multi-year commitment to a job that could include being shot at.
If only every company developed sales funnels like this intern pipeline, there would be many more happy customers in the world.
You could probably launch a business in almost every possible field in the world, charge 50% more than everyone else, not fix a thing about how you do business... except cloning a sales funnel like the one mentioned in this article,(overwhelming your "qualified" prospects with a pleasantly surprising "shock and awe" experience and you would crush the competition, and have prospects lining up around the block begging you to take their money!
It might cost you an extra buck or two upfront, but it will pay for itself in spades in the long run, and as the article points out, greatly minimize your risk by qualifying your prospects before investing in them, and instead spend the money on attracting the top 1% of customers!!!!
I guess the only real question is... This article is 5 years old, what's taking you so long to realize your customers just want to feel special and want an experience they can't resist sharing with everyone out there.
It truly amazes me that there is a guaranteed to work formula here, and yet so many companies spend their marketing dollars trying to attract everbody or the wrong-body instead of investing in the right people at the right time, and making bigger margins, delivering better services and experiences to better customers, who are very happy to pay premiums.
Most important part of the system the article describes: "We use the summer to decide if we want them full-time. So we give them real work. Hard work."
Too many summer internships (see big law, big finance, etc) fail to give employers the information they need to know if there's a fit, and, just as importantly, fail to give top students the information that THEY need to know if this is where they want to spend 70 hours a week for the next 1-3 years.
I agree, this smells a lot like late '00s legal recruiting - throw money, parties, and interesting work at summer associates, giving them and the firm almost no information about the actual long-term fit.
75K for top 1%? Anecdotally an average(not top 1%) fresh grad in companies like Microsoft,Google,FB or (insert any other big co) etc these days get about 80-120K(depending on your negotiation skills,competing offers,school where you went to etc), not to mention ESPP every year,RSUs/options. If any average grad at these companies can make so much, shouldn't top 1% be getting much more?
Also more than the offer, Fog Creek is not known to people who don't follow tech news, read Joel's articles etc. But everyone knows and uses a (insert a big co)'s product and that reputation definitely stands out.
It is possible to live in Manhattan for $70K/year--with roommates. However you should not have any financial shocks. You should not, just to name a personal example, find yourself suddenly needing three dental implants at $2700 each, not including the cost or surgery. You should avoid cabs and use public transportation instead. And you should avoid taking advantage of any cultural activity that isn't free.
One downside of taking lower paying jobs is that employers often decide that you really are worth the lower salary. Programmers can end up doing system administration and desktop work. Perhaps that's not too bad in moderation, but it's very easy to get sucked into an on-call mode. Then again there may be exceptional people who can program in their heads as if they had an office with a door they can close, while some administrative assistant is nagging about corrupted email.
Huh? There are literally millions of people in NYC getting by just fine in NYC making $70k or less. You're not going to live a white-bread suburban dream though.
The funny thing is, NYC has a great public transit system in Manhattan (and an OK system in the boroughs) and lots of access to free or cheap cultural activities. I grew up in Queens and went to the beach, dozens of museums, concerts, etc with my mom.
The vast majority of people, in all sorts of places, and at all sorts of income levels lack the ability to pay for a $15,000 dental procedure.
Joel I take it you mean the 1% that apply to you? Small companies (dont take this persoanly) are neaver going to be the first point of call for the true top 1%.
This is decidedly not true. While I wouldn't be so vain as to call myself the top 1% of developers, I've gotten job offers from most major software companies, but one of my criteria for where I accept a job is "do you have fewer than 50 people?"
I want to write code all day, and I want to work on interesting and very hard problems. While this exists at large companies, there are very few jobs at top tier small companies where this doesn't exist.
[+] [-] illumin8|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonathanjaeger|14 years ago|reply
Edit: Maybe starting salaries in NYC for tech startups are that high for programmers, but other positions tend to be in the $35K-$50K range.
[+] [-] michael_miller|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdkess|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scpike|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] natesm|14 years ago|reply
I live in Williamsburg and ride the subway for about 20 minutes. Not really a big deal, and much better than any commute involving owning a car.
[+] [-] klbarry|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajross|14 years ago|reply
The danger is that if you then build a culture where everyone gets recruited out of school, everyone is swimming in the same pool with equally narrow skill sets and no one develops the required breadth. So you get "architects" who know their field really well but can barely write working code on a modern system.
This works great for the true elite who will learn this stuff on their own, of course. But even then recruiting from schools tends to incorrectly bias decisions on things like grades, which correlate at best weakly with hacking talent. You'll miss some of those targets who were slacking off in class working on their own projects.
[+] [-] tedunangst|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|14 years ago|reply
In my experience, that kind of narrow hyperfocus is exactly what most companies actually want -- including startups. Some may think they want breadth, but they actually just want breadth within the narrow specialty they address.
[+] [-] iamleppert|14 years ago|reply
Today's students, if they are really good, have much better opportunity than to work at Fog Creek. They are thinking of companies like Amazon, Facebook, Apple, Google, LinkedIn, etc. that are actually innovating and working on some of the most interesting problems and applications. Not creating VNC "Remote Assistance" clones and help desk software.
Fog Creek does create very good software. But game changing? Or well known? Most people outside of software development wouldn't be able to name an actual Fog Creek product.
[+] [-] doktrin|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Shenglong|14 years ago|reply
In September recruiting here at Western University, for example, a bunch of firms host their info sessions at a club, where it's open bar. But students are getting smarter here, and almost everyone looks for internships in third year. Thus, the companies have adapted and several have started recruiting second years. But more than that, firms like KPMG have started running summer programs, where they fly promising students down to Hollywood for an all expenses-paid vacation, to introduce them to the firm.
Let's see who's the first to offer to pay for tuition.
[+] [-] dripton|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] davemel37|14 years ago|reply
You could probably launch a business in almost every possible field in the world, charge 50% more than everyone else, not fix a thing about how you do business... except cloning a sales funnel like the one mentioned in this article,(overwhelming your "qualified" prospects with a pleasantly surprising "shock and awe" experience and you would crush the competition, and have prospects lining up around the block begging you to take their money!
It might cost you an extra buck or two upfront, but it will pay for itself in spades in the long run, and as the article points out, greatly minimize your risk by qualifying your prospects before investing in them, and instead spend the money on attracting the top 1% of customers!!!!
I guess the only real question is... This article is 5 years old, what's taking you so long to realize your customers just want to feel special and want an experience they can't resist sharing with everyone out there.
It truly amazes me that there is a guaranteed to work formula here, and yet so many companies spend their marketing dollars trying to attract everbody or the wrong-body instead of investing in the right people at the right time, and making bigger margins, delivering better services and experiences to better customers, who are very happy to pay premiums.
[+] [-] seancoughlin|14 years ago|reply
Too many summer internships (see big law, big finance, etc) fail to give employers the information they need to know if there's a fit, and, just as importantly, fail to give top students the information that THEY need to know if this is where they want to spend 70 hours a week for the next 1-3 years.
[+] [-] fatman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bigbang|14 years ago|reply
Also more than the offer, Fog Creek is not known to people who don't follow tech news, read Joel's articles etc. But everyone knows and uses a (insert a big co)'s product and that reputation definitely stands out.
[+] [-] kaeluka|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChristianMarks|14 years ago|reply
One downside of taking lower paying jobs is that employers often decide that you really are worth the lower salary. Programmers can end up doing system administration and desktop work. Perhaps that's not too bad in moderation, but it's very easy to get sucked into an on-call mode. Then again there may be exceptional people who can program in their heads as if they had an office with a door they can close, while some administrative assistant is nagging about corrupted email.
[+] [-] Duff|14 years ago|reply
The funny thing is, NYC has a great public transit system in Manhattan (and an OK system in the boroughs) and lots of access to free or cheap cultural activities. I grew up in Queens and went to the beach, dozens of museums, concerts, etc with my mom.
The vast majority of people, in all sorts of places, and at all sorts of income levels lack the ability to pay for a $15,000 dental procedure.
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
He literally sits at a desk in an open plan office with a headset on while he writes code.
At any given moment his headset beeps and he has to quickly switch from visual studio into his ticket logging application.
I have no idea how it would be possible to write half decent software that way.
[+] [-] jiggy2011|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nluqo|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mjwalshe|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdkess|14 years ago|reply
I want to write code all day, and I want to work on interesting and very hard problems. While this exists at large companies, there are very few jobs at top tier small companies where this doesn't exist.
[+] [-] monjaro|14 years ago|reply