I hate DRM, I hate monopolies, I welcome competition, but if one builds a massive empire by just creating a bonafide good platform, single-handedly making open source desktop better, with good customer support and treating users with respect, they deserve the money honestly.
If one day I manage to build a billion dollar empire, my sole inspiration on how to conduct business is Gabe Newell. [1]
Which is exactly the thing Epic can't compete on. They can give away all the free games they want, but Steam and Valve have done much more than offering games on sale.
(I got a 13 year old account on Steam, more than 500 games bought, almost $10k spent on the platform. No Windows partition for the past 3 years)
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1: I honestly couldn't name anybody else that has kept their company private, grown it to such heights and stayed true to their founding principles, without selling out to shareholders and advertisers for an easy buck.
I was starting to diversify my store fronts before Valve came out with the Deck.
But the release of it and the message it sent (that they take this seriously), made me reverse course and now I always buy my games on Steam, even if it costs 10 euro more.
Valve have funded some good work on the underlying compatibility code, but their big contribution was really fixing a problem they themselves created. Lots of games expect to be able to call back to the Steam client for a license check, and this used to require running the Windows version of Steam which didn't work well (huge compatibility issues and it really didn't like being run at the same time as the Linux version). One of the big things enabling easy Linux gaming was a Valve-approved way to run Windows games under a compatibility layer and have them still connect to the same Linux client used to run native games.
Are you saying, that it is actually a good experience to run Linux on the gaming laptop instead of Windows with Proton?
I already have Steam Deck, and love it. But if I want to play games in better resolution, I might boot my Windows Laptop. Have not tried Linux with Proton.
On Linux laptop I have a NVIDIA some kind of 3xxx series card.
I haven't booted into Windows since 2009, thanks to Wine. Proton certainly expands its compatibility and support though, and I'll support any company that supports Linux, and Valve is one of the best ones.
I love Steam, Valve and Proton, and what they've done for Linux gaming, but nothing will make me compromise on DRM. To me, ending DRM is just as important as supporting free operating systems, so unfortunately no amount of good will gives Valve a free pass in my eyes.
So I've started buying games from DRM-free platforms like GoG and adding them to Steam as non-Steam games. Same compatibility and no need to use an external tool to maintain Wine/Proton prefixes. With the boatloads of money Valve makes from Steam, they probably won't miss me too much.
Like many others here have said, Valve has won a loyal customer. The impact proton has over linux as desktop is unmeasurable. They did open source right, and they will likely benefit massively from it.
The only people that hate proton are the teams that port games to linux for a living. I personally am sad to see that icculus and flibitjibobo, to name just two, are out of work on this front.
I picked up a Steam Deck recently and aside from when I’ve booted into the desktop mode to set up some emulators you’d never know it was running games through a compatibility layer. Truly incredible work from Valve.
Technical impressiveness aside it’s a really nice device too—I like having something that feels mostly like a console in the “it just works” factor, but still allows me to do some fiddling if and when I want to.
One thing that I'd love to see is a Proton version for M1/M2 Apple Silicon... UTM is the only thing that runs x86 VMs and for whatever reason its QEMU guest tool drivers are all completely buggy and everything is dog slow (and of course, Windows refusing to load unsigned drivers on Win7 x64 makes trying out different drivers pretty much impossible).
Apple's Game Porting Toolkit (https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10123/) is essentially Proton for macOS. However, they've bizarrely restricted its use to testing your own games, and don't offer it as a general Proton-like solution for playing Windows games on macOS. You can't ship a game that uses it.
Yep, if Apple could get over their stubbornness and work with Valve on this it would be fantastic for customers of both companies.
Apple has done some work with their game porting toolkit to support certain flavors of DirectX games with a combo of Wine and Rosetta. But this isn’t officially pitched as tool for end users to run Windows games.
Blame Apple for not implementing Vulkan on their GPUs. If they had a fully compliant Vulkan driver I'm sure gaming on Mac would be at parity with Linux very quickly.
It’s been many years since I was current on the state of cross platform gaming.
Is it possible that proton could become the de facto target platform?
That is, if a developer builds to ensure that their game works correctly under proton, then will it also work correctly under windows? So by just ensuring it works under proton, which seems to be minimal effort, do they get access to the expanded market for “free”?
Do any of the consoles support proton, so that the only barrier to releasing a game are the legal agreements?
Targeting Windows and Proton is already the status quo if you want the green tick on Steam, and apparently tens of thousands of game developers do because Valve promote Deck-compatible games heavily and that audience is more likely to spend money.
You can build a "Steam box" console with any Linux distribution and Steam's Big Picture mode. Autologon and start Steam in Big Picture mode on startup. I have this on Debian on a NUC, and there's a distro ChimeraOS which offers a polished pre-installed A/B update experience too.
Support for Proton doesn't imply full support on Windows out of the box, although it should be easier to fix problems on Windows than the other way around.
The thing is, currently, having a game built for Windows directly produces a much more performant game on Windows. Wine still has some hiccups here and there.
Proton is a remarkable accomplishment; I never believed it would have worked as well as it does. It helps that newer games are increasingly based on a couple of engines (Unity in particular) but its support for older games is also impressive.
Proton is the basis of Chromebook's experimental Steam games support. It works pretty well, as well as Proton itself as far as I can tell.
I've been running solely on Linux since something like 2015. I was primarily on Linux from ~2006 or so, but did switch to Windows for a couple of years to play some Windows games. (this was before Proton really existed)
I'm probably less technically savvy than a lot of the HN crowd, and I just have not ever had a significant problem running linux. For sure, I've avoided some problems by being picky about what PCs I buy. But for the most part it's been pretty pain free. Running Linux full-time has been effortless and easy. And thanks to Valve, gaming on Linux gets better every year. I played Elden Ring on launch, and on launch, it actually played better than PC.
To the extent that HN types have trouble with Linux, I can only imagine it's because they're doing _more_ on their PC than me. ie, they have some software or project that just needs to run a certain way. For sure, Linux isn't always perfect for that.
I run winesapOS[0] which is based on SteamOS and was able to repurpose an old Toshiba notebook for my kids, running Freddy Fish* and other games. Windows 10 doesn't run smoothly (even though it came with Windows 10) and I'm not going to run anything older than that.
Steam also makes it very easy to switch between Proton versions. If version X doesn't work, perhaps version X-1 or X+1 does work, or even the experimental version.
* Yes, ScummVM is available for Linux but the Steam Linux distribution included an old ScummVM which wasn't able to load some libraries. Running the Windows version through an compatibility layer was easier than modifying shell files to run the latest ScummVM through flatpak.
Proton was the missing piece to Linux gaming/desktop. It’s also a vital part of steam deck. Maybe someday we’ll get a standard rendering pipeline :/ /s.
Just went and checked, out of my top 20 games only flight simulator and space engineers do not work. I had completely missed that proton has come so far...I think this means I can finally truly ditch windows on my game/virtualisation machine
I don't know how common it is, but the AI War developers posted recently about their new game & said Steam recommended they drop their Linux port, saying that just relying on Proton would be better performing & a better use of time.
I'm very curious how widespread this advice is. It's a little sad & ironic to me if Proton is now entrenching Windows as the only target platform. I'm hoping this wasn't blanket advice Valve is handing out but really something specific to the team.
>Steam recommended they drop their Linux port, saying that just relying on Proton would be better performing & a better use of time. I'm very curious how widespread this advice is. It's a little sad & ironic to me if Proton is now entrenching Windows as the only target platform.
Very. Win32 ABI is the most stable and rock solid compared to the messy moving target of the Linux world, so recommending it is not entrenching Windows, just very good advice to save time and resources to target a platform that's alredy known and stable, and since the target is fixed and well known, it makes it also very easy to emulate on their end for Linux.
As much as FOSS-Linux evangelists hate it, Win32 emulated on Linux is better for everyone, than tryin to port games natively on Linux, and makes the most business sense of you want the same games on Linux.
Do you want more games to be played on Linux or not? Because we've been trying the whole "please target native Linux" thing for awhile now and it simply isn't appealing enough to ever work.
Seems a pretty obvious way to preserve value-add in the face of competing game services. GOG and so forth don't have Proton, so the simplest moat to build is to curtail native Linux development and protect Proton's status as the "default" approach to getting games running there.
Game developers have stated that the support requests they get for Linux outweighs the revenue they get from supporting it. There are so many distros with different packages/dependencies, drivers, package managers etc. that it's very time consuming to keep up and not worth it.
I mean that's what Apple has done with "Game Porting Kit" - valve has pushed "windows is the platform" to such an extent that no one even tries to write portable code for games and just targets directx.
Well this is a topical place to ask this tangent I suppose. My GPU is on the fritz and I'm looking to replace it. Has anyone gotten SteamVR working decently under Linux through Proton? If so, what GPU do you have? It's basically impossible to search for information on this, but I really want to develop for VR, and I'd like to not have to boot into Windows to do it
I'd love to go Linux full-time on my gaming machine, but for now VR (Beat Saber, primarily) is keeping me tethered to Windows. It's no fault of Valve's, though… the blame falls entirely on Facebook for insisting on their proprietary Oculus client, not supporting Linux with that client, and not doing anything to make that client work with Proton/WINE.
My best workstation runs Linux for work, so I've spent time getting 'odd' setups like Centos 7 to work before there were nice packages for it. Learned a bit trying to game on my good video card without booting to Windows. Fast forward to current, and I don't even bother with a Windows partition on it.
Today, Ubuntu sorts the drivers and steam setup just lovely. I've gifted out old workstations to extended family and they are pretty happy with what they can do from a gaming/browsing perspective. With Windows 11 not able to support these boxes, having something 'just work' gives these older boxes an extended life. Most have not needed to pick up a Windows license. Very much at that 'good enough' state.
[+] [-] stevepike|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sph|2 years ago|reply
If one day I manage to build a billion dollar empire, my sole inspiration on how to conduct business is Gabe Newell. [1]
Which is exactly the thing Epic can't compete on. They can give away all the free games they want, but Steam and Valve have done much more than offering games on sale.
(I got a 13 year old account on Steam, more than 500 games bought, almost $10k spent on the platform. No Windows partition for the past 3 years)
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1: I honestly couldn't name anybody else that has kept their company private, grown it to such heights and stayed true to their founding principles, without selling out to shareholders and advertisers for an easy buck.
[+] [-] erinnh|2 years ago|reply
I was starting to diversify my store fronts before Valve came out with the Deck.
But the release of it and the message it sent (that they take this seriously), made me reverse course and now I always buy my games on Steam, even if it costs 10 euro more.
[+] [-] makomk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] outcoldman|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] INTPenis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jjoonathan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SkyMarshal|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rossy|2 years ago|reply
So I've started buying games from DRM-free platforms like GoG and adding them to Steam as non-Steam games. Same compatibility and no need to use an external tool to maintain Wine/Proton prefixes. With the boatloads of money Valve makes from Steam, they probably won't miss me too much.
[+] [-] gumballindie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mariusor|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deergomoo|2 years ago|reply
Technical impressiveness aside it’s a really nice device too—I like having something that feels mostly like a console in the “it just works” factor, but still allows me to do some fiddling if and when I want to.
[+] [-] noxvilleza|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mschuster91|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jshier|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stetrain|2 years ago|reply
Apple has done some work with their game porting toolkit to support certain flavors of DirectX games with a combo of Wine and Rosetta. But this isn’t officially pitched as tool for end users to run Windows games.
[+] [-] kcb|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gumballindie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cyberax|2 years ago|reply
So Proton should support it eventually.
[+] [-] abtinf|2 years ago|reply
Is it possible that proton could become the de facto target platform?
That is, if a developer builds to ensure that their game works correctly under proton, then will it also work correctly under windows? So by just ensuring it works under proton, which seems to be minimal effort, do they get access to the expanded market for “free”?
Do any of the consoles support proton, so that the only barrier to releasing a game are the legal agreements?
[+] [-] peoplearepeople|2 years ago|reply
Steam deck
[+] [-] suprjami|2 years ago|reply
You can build a "Steam box" console with any Linux distribution and Steam's Big Picture mode. Autologon and start Steam in Big Picture mode on startup. I have this on Debian on a NUC, and there's a distro ChimeraOS which offers a polished pre-installed A/B update experience too.
[+] [-] augusto-moura|2 years ago|reply
The thing is, currently, having a game built for Windows directly produces a much more performant game on Windows. Wine still has some hiccups here and there.
[+] [-] tmccrary55|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NelsonMinar|2 years ago|reply
Proton is the basis of Chromebook's experimental Steam games support. It works pretty well, as well as Proton itself as far as I can tell.
[+] [-] MrDresden|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] everdrive|2 years ago|reply
I'm probably less technically savvy than a lot of the HN crowd, and I just have not ever had a significant problem running linux. For sure, I've avoided some problems by being picky about what PCs I buy. But for the most part it's been pretty pain free. Running Linux full-time has been effortless and easy. And thanks to Valve, gaming on Linux gets better every year. I played Elden Ring on launch, and on launch, it actually played better than PC.
To the extent that HN types have trouble with Linux, I can only imagine it's because they're doing _more_ on their PC than me. ie, they have some software or project that just needs to run a certain way. For sure, Linux isn't always perfect for that.
[+] [-] Zhyl|2 years ago|reply
One multi-million-unit-selling handheld gaming system later and I don't see those arguments much anymore.
[+] [-] haunter|2 years ago|reply
сука блять
[+] [-] idle76|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sebazzz|2 years ago|reply
Steam also makes it very easy to switch between Proton versions. If version X doesn't work, perhaps version X-1 or X+1 does work, or even the experimental version.
* Yes, ScummVM is available for Linux but the Steam Linux distribution included an old ScummVM which wasn't able to load some libraries. Running the Windows version through an compatibility layer was easier than modifying shell files to run the latest ScummVM through flatpak.
[0]: https://github.com/LukeShortCloud/winesapOS
[+] [-] gabereiser|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NietTim|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jauntywundrkind|2 years ago|reply
I'm very curious how widespread this advice is. It's a little sad & ironic to me if Proton is now entrenching Windows as the only target platform. I'm hoping this wasn't blanket advice Valve is handing out but really something specific to the team.
[+] [-] FirmwareBurner|2 years ago|reply
Very. Win32 ABI is the most stable and rock solid compared to the messy moving target of the Linux world, so recommending it is not entrenching Windows, just very good advice to save time and resources to target a platform that's alredy known and stable, and since the target is fixed and well known, it makes it also very easy to emulate on their end for Linux.
As much as FOSS-Linux evangelists hate it, Win32 emulated on Linux is better for everyone, than tryin to port games natively on Linux, and makes the most business sense of you want the same games on Linux.
[+] [-] COGlory|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ShamelessC|2 years ago|reply
Evangelism is useless in the face of results.
[+] [-] stonogo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baq|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcpackieh|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vinyl7|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olliej|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ndjdjfjfj|2 years ago|reply
I tried Overwatch 2 with Proton and performance was abysmal. My computer seemed to be melting and FPS was jumping all over the place.
It does 144fps on Windows 11 without sweating (same PC).
[+] [-] zeta0134|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jwells89|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] heelix|2 years ago|reply
Today, Ubuntu sorts the drivers and steam setup just lovely. I've gifted out old workstations to extended family and they are pretty happy with what they can do from a gaming/browsing perspective. With Windows 11 not able to support these boxes, having something 'just work' gives these older boxes an extended life. Most have not needed to pick up a Windows license. Very much at that 'good enough' state.
[+] [-] roody15|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agnivade|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SirMaster|2 years ago|reply
I only play multi-player games, and when I search ProtonDB none of the games I play say they are supported.
Call of Duty, Battlefield 2042, Rainbow 6 Seige, PUGB, Destiny 2