While this should be especially true for destinations, such as hotels or even apartments, there still needs to be fast-charging infrastructure for road trips. And right now, the not-Tesla charging infrastructure is hot garbage.
Half the plugs don’t work.
The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less.
And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because:
With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers.
This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.
I have had to wait at a Tesla Supercharger once in 4 years, and that was early on.
They are building new stations in the US faster than one per day (over 400 last year, tracking to over 500 this year). Each stations contains at least 8 chargers, some have 12, 24, 40, or even more.
Charging stops are usually 10-20min since it's best to use the fast part of the charging curve and move on if you're trying to maximize trip speed.
Definitely agreed about fast chargers needing to be reliable and smart. Part of Tesla's magic is a charge network and in-car navigation that talk to each other so you are routed to working chargers at the right part of your trip. And congested chargers can be automatically routed around.
Hopefully the new agreements in the US allowing other cars to access Tesla's network will promote more competition all around between charging providers to provide a better experience.
Tesla owner in Europe. My experience is pretty good even in non Tesla stations. Especially Ionity ones.
However I don't understand your comment about Tesla's costing twice as much. In Italy Tesla's for Tesla owners il less than half compared to 3rd parties (90ish cents kWh vs 44ish)
>While this should be especially true for destinations, such as hotels or even apartments
It's really not though? I've never come across an L2 charger that doesn't just work. The DC fast charging is where the problems always arise. At least with an L2 charger, the hotel/apartment can easily track the power consumption being utilized, and also lock it down to only allow charging as they see fit via mobile app, NFC card, or pin. With a 14-50 it's a free-for-all.
In Canada the supercharger experience is great. In 3 years I’ve never had to wait for a spot. The superchargers are usually located in convenient locations in mall marking lots or next to coffee shops or restaurants. I’d love to switch try a different EV but the lack of a supercharger network prevents that.
Yeah it can be terrible... on a trip I was recently waiting for a DC fast charger to become available, the guy using it was charging from 80 to get to 100%. I had a car full of kids that I couldn't get home because I was at 15%. I asked if I could at least charge for 15-20 minutes and he said "I was here first, not my problem."
I charge at home 99% of the time so it's rarely an issue, but I need to be more cautious on road trips than I hoped. Next time I'll plan ahead to charge earlier.
> . People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still.
Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
I think the bigger takeaway from this is that the US really fumbled our level 2 charging protocol by requiring the cable to be integrated into the charger.
In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
The other challenge with using the NEMA plugs is I doubt many of them are rated for as many plug cycles as what a J1772 or Tesla connector is rated for. If that plug is going to get plugged and unplugged several times a day it'll wear out pretty quick.
> In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
The author seems to be overestimating what level 2 chargers actually do. They are really just switches that turn and off the electricity after you pay (and it verifies with the car). So his idea here of replacing all those complicated level 2 chargers with a regular outlet plus a way to pay is.. actually just what a level 2 charger already is.
DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
The biggest difference in the US is the integrated cord. It's about half the total cost and the primary wear item. If we had a spec similar to the UK where the charger had a female J1772 plug and the user supplied the cord we'd be able to roll out a lot more chargers for less money, they'd more consistently work, etc.
this isn't really the author's point - but woe on anyone who tries to sign up for the myriad of third party charging web sites to get charging to work. I am looking at you EVGo, Enel X Way, Electrify America, Charge point,etc. None of these just let you swipe a card and pay. None of the level 2 or level 3 chargers has the basic functionality you get at a gas pump: you can just pay with a card. No - you need to download the app, sign up, do f*ing email verification, enter your credit card, enter the station number in the app because the QR Scanning doesn't work. All to find out that the stupid charger refuses to talk to your car.
To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture.
So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
Electrify America does allow paying by card. And federal regulations are going to require it for all public charging stations. This, I'm not worried at all.
The really mind blowing part is that some chargers do have card readers on them but they are as reliable as the chargers themselves.
The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code.
And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
I'm hoping that by the time I buy an EV regulators will force these charging companies to accept cash. Ideally, that would mean not having to use their apps.
EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away.
Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
> EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used.
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely.
I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
Electricity meters have been known for decades, even with payment terminals.after all, they were invented to bill customers for electricity used.
And I can see authors point - if you look at Tesla chargers, it's not only the stalls but whole underground infrastructure with cooling, air conditioners and who knows what else. If cars were designed to use AC instead it would be enough to have an AC outlet (3 phase probably) and a meter, and whole charging station could be built by an electrician, with standard components. Yep you won't get a megawatt power this way, but 30-50kW is realistic
Jesus. They figured this out with gas pumps like 50 years ago. There's no need for an app. Period, the end. You pre-auth with a card, and then it stops giving you fuel when you hit the limit, or it stops after a certain amount. It then charges you based on how much you used when you stop charging. If you keep charging, it costs you more.
> Paying for the service might be harder to manage without complicated apps. I mean, I can’t picture companies or utilities doling out power without a way to manage or bill drivers.
Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
I've often thought that overnight charging at hotels would be simpler without that. Just a simple keycard to open, similar to other hotel amenities and a fixed cost to use it would be sufficient.
At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
This is why I have not bought an EV, and I'm not buying one until it's solved.
Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless.
I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling.
Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
The confusion is kind of understandable with the multiple overlapping standards. They were really talking about a Tesla/NACs to J1772 adapter, which do exist and can be used at Tesla destination chargers.
Slow chargers at destinations (home, work, hotels, cabins, ski resorts) should be dumb. At most they should take payment directly via contactless or via a shared kiosk in a parking lot, no app or account required. Most Level 2 chargers are pretty dumb. They are not much more than an integrated AC outlet, cable, contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal.
Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested.
The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment.
Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers.
Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
That's an interesting idea. Like with pay parking lots, have a central kiosk that you go pay for the parking and it enables the EVSE at the spot. Only a few actual payment terminals needed means it reduces the odds of a failure at any particular spot and reduces the cost. Seems like a good idea. At hotels it could be tied to a room key to charge to the room.
> Installing NEMA 14-50 outlets everywhere could put the EV revolution on the road sooner rather than later.
No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice.
We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas.
The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do).
At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
We need some fast charging and that's coming online as investments are ramping up rapidly. However, the vast majority of people aren't traveling anywhere close to the maximum range of their car the vast majority of the time. Meaning the vast majority of the time, all they need is a simple slow charger.
Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served.
Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing.
The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it.
My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
As someone who's lived car-free my entire life (yay EU and good public transport), I'm baffled to find out charging a car even requires an app.
How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
This only works if you’re willing to give people free electricity. And if you’re willing to do that, you might as well make the existing DC fast chargers free too.
A 10kw level 2 charger costs about $2k to install and uses about $1 an hour of power. A 250kw DC charger costs about $50k-150k to install and uses about $30 an hour of power running full tilt. Way lower upfront capital costs and way lower potential for abuse.
In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
The author is using a NEMA plug, which provides level 2 charging. That's not suitable for road trips. When we talk about infrastructure for charging we are almost always talking about level 3 charging like those 350kW stations at Electrify America.
That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
If we're talking about infrastructure for road trip charging, I agree with you. I'd estimate that well over 90% of my total car annual milage is for "not road trips" and so when I'm talking about "what infrastructure for charging would we need to electrify half the US fleet?", I'm definitely going to include Level 2 charging at home, offices, and commercial spaces.
(I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
People assume driving the Alaska Highway in an EV would be difficult, but actually it's extremely easy thanks to all the RV parks with 50 Amp service. They're plentiful, and the cost is already rolled into camping a night.
You are basically limited to one charge a day, however, that makes the trip sort of slow. Here is hoping BC Hydro keeps expanding their charging infrastructure north.
The problem is how to bill users for electricity consumed, because charging a car can cost $10 or more.
The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it.
Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
No offense to the author but that's just ridiculous. If the only charging infrastructure we deploy is single-phase AC power, electric cars are doomed. When your roadtrip involves stopping every 250-300 miles to charge for 8 hours, you just aren't using it. Not to mention he's essentially stealing power since he rolled into an RV park and by his own description didn't actually PAY the RV park for the electricity he used.
There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model.
If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
To be fair, I doubt most knowledgeable RV parks would mind. In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that?
I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
[+] [-] ROFISH|2 years ago|reply
Half the plugs don’t work.
The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less.
And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because:
With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots.
I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers.
This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.
[+] [-] stetrain|2 years ago|reply
They are building new stations in the US faster than one per day (over 400 last year, tracking to over 500 this year). Each stations contains at least 8 chargers, some have 12, 24, 40, or even more.
Charging stops are usually 10-20min since it's best to use the fast part of the charging curve and move on if you're trying to maximize trip speed.
Definitely agreed about fast chargers needing to be reliable and smart. Part of Tesla's magic is a charge network and in-car navigation that talk to each other so you are routed to working chargers at the right part of your trip. And congested chargers can be automatically routed around.
Hopefully the new agreements in the US allowing other cars to access Tesla's network will promote more competition all around between charging providers to provide a better experience.
[+] [-] marcyb5st|2 years ago|reply
However I don't understand your comment about Tesla's costing twice as much. In Italy Tesla's for Tesla owners il less than half compared to 3rd parties (90ish cents kWh vs 44ish)
[+] [-] tw04|2 years ago|reply
It's really not though? I've never come across an L2 charger that doesn't just work. The DC fast charging is where the problems always arise. At least with an L2 charger, the hotel/apartment can easily track the power consumption being utilized, and also lock it down to only allow charging as they see fit via mobile app, NFC card, or pin. With a 14-50 it's a free-for-all.
[+] [-] poxrud|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skrebbel|2 years ago|reply
Fwiw I’ve never seen that “people in porches yelling” thing play out here in NL.
[+] [-] micromacrofoot|2 years ago|reply
I charge at home 99% of the time so it's rarely an issue, but I need to be more cautious on road trips than I hoped. Next time I'll plan ahead to charge earlier.
[+] [-] brianwawok|2 years ago|reply
Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still.
Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
[+] [-] supergeek|2 years ago|reply
In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important.
Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
[+] [-] vel0city|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|2 years ago|reply
That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
[+] [-] readams|2 years ago|reply
DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
[+] [-] supergeek|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] harshaw|2 years ago|reply
To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture.
So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
[+] [-] kccqzy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rsync|2 years ago|reply
Granted, it was a shared station that was sharing what was probably only a 20/240 circuit but ... it worked.
(California)
[+] [-] mulmen|2 years ago|reply
The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code.
And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
[+] [-] vel0city|2 years ago|reply
I've absolutely done many charging sessions at EVGo, Electrify America, Chargepoint, and others by just swiping a credit card.
[+] [-] dpkirchner|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] KirillPanov|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kirby64|2 years ago|reply
A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away.
Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
[+] [-] beefield|2 years ago|reply
I'm scratching my head here. The old gas/diesel dispensing stations have solved this problem of restricting people taking all of the fuel in the pump with a disruptive financial technology called blo^H^H^H credit card. And I am really, really struggling to understand why I cant buy electricity directly with my credit card. (I do understand why the app might be better experience in many ways, but it is no excuse for not making it possible to pay with card without stupid obligatory app)
[+] [-] lafar6503|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olyjohn|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bdcravens|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _ea1k|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bjartr|2 years ago|reply
Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
[+] [-] _ea1k|2 years ago|reply
At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
[+] [-] KirillPanov|2 years ago|reply
Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless.
I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling.
Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
[+] [-] mypgovroom|2 years ago|reply
Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it.
There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.
[+] [-] stetrain|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] stetrain|2 years ago|reply
Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested.
The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment.
Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers.
Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
[+] [-] vel0city|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ShakataGaNai|2 years ago|reply
No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice.
We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas.
The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do).
At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
[+] [-] jillesvangurp|2 years ago|reply
Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served.
Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing.
The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it.
My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
[+] [-] fooker|2 years ago|reply
The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues.
There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
[+] [-] rollcat|2 years ago|reply
How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
[+] [-] NotYourLawyer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] supergeek|2 years ago|reply
In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
[+] [-] kccqzy|2 years ago|reply
That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
[+] [-] sokoloff|2 years ago|reply
(I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
[+] [-] CameronNemo|2 years ago|reply
It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.
[+] [-] grecy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] p1mrx|2 years ago|reply
The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it.
Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
[+] [-] i1856511|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tw04|2 years ago|reply
There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model.
If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
[+] [-] _ea1k|2 years ago|reply
I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
[+] [-] elicash|2 years ago|reply
https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...