Of all the horrible things go on with privacy these days, this is the one I hate the most. I’m a “car guy”, but not the sort that obsesses over old cars (although I do love 60s and 80s cars). I like new tech, I like the advances in engineering we’ve made in new vehicles, I like EVs even.
Nonetheless I’ve been in the market for a new car for months and haven’t bought because it’s hard to find any cars that meet my requirements (after all most companies primarily make trucks and shitty crossovers, not even cars). The two things that consistently hold me back are either things like this (crazy telemetry / touchscreens everywhere / half-ass safety tech) or insane dealer markups. I’ve pretty much figured out the new Toyota GR Corolla is the perfect car for my needs, but you can’t find them anywhere without a $25K+ dealer markup and many dealers won’t sell them to out of state residents.
It’s truly a crazy time in the new car markets and the used market isn’t really any better.
I don't know about their markups, but Mazda has been pulling out touchscreens and putting back buttons for audio and climate control purposes. Not sure how far it's made it through their models.
I was planning to get a Nissan Leaf (worst privacy among all manufacturers in the round up) but luckily stumbled on a BMW i3 instead. They have the best telemetry story by far, and it has a well-implemented jog wheel instead of a touch screen. Also, it has a carbon-fiber frame. It looks like a tall econobox, but handles extremely well.
The i3 has been discontinued and the new models have a touch screen in addition to the jog wheel, so it's possible the jog wheel on those is poorly implemented, and not enough to actually use the car.
I haven't test driven one of the newer models, but I'd carefully check the computer UI before purchasing one.
Anyway, I'm hoping BMW succeeds with their contrarian approach of having physical controls, and not treating their customers terribly, and that the other manufacturers follow their lead.
Theres something to be said for old bangers. I had a 31 year old mx5 and now a 13 year old E class. They don't have the touch screen sillyness and tend to be much cheaper to run if you include depreciation. You have to get stuff fixed about once a year with those.
These markups are insane, and I wonder if anyone actually gets anywhere near paying them. I don’t really see the point since for those markups you can just get a nicer car. Unless car collectors really are that out of touch and flush with cash.
I currently own a 2012 VW GTI that I bought new 11 years ago. It has 123k miles and lots of modifications. I recently compiled a short list of both EVs and ICE vehicles to compare against it; the Toyota GR Corolla was on my list:
I think the GR Corolla is great, but even after 11 years it's sadly not really a convincing upgrade for me. The GR Corolla is less powerful (in both torque and horsepower), it has one less cylinder and less displacement, it weighs more, it gets essentially the same mileage and has the same range, and it costs much more. The Corolla does have AWD though.
Again, the Golf R is also great, but it's also less powerful and weighs more. It gets slightly better mileage than my current car, but costs even more than the GR Corolla.
Finding something new that is "better" out of the box than my 11 year old GTI would cost me at least 56k (Toyota GR Supra RWD) or if I want AWD then it's more like 66k (Audi RS3 AWD). If I want something electric and "better" then it's at least 89k (Tesla Model S). These prices are really high to begin with; when you add in dealer markups they become insane propositions. For your money you'll also have to contend with with touch screens, capacitive buttons, and a bunch of other tech that you don't want or need. The market seems to be in a pretty sad state for car guys. Unless something changes I'll be rebuilding my engine with forged internals and continuing to drive my GTI.
The touchscreen is great for some things of course, but most regular people that comment seem to agree that tactile controls for radio and HVAC are their preference. The only explanation for why manufacturers are dropping the tactile controls is for cost savings/higher profits. Because it sure doesn't seem like most people want those items on the screen.
Kia driver here. There is a screen in my car, but also actual knobs and steering wheel controls for everything I might need (audio controls, climate controls) and when I use the screen to project my phone, almost all functions there can be activated through voice control.
This is me. I bought two new cars every 2 years like clockwork. We replaced one car because we NEEDED a larger family car and have gone without the 2nd for over a year.
It feels impossibly hard to buy a great car today.
A lot of people are making comments about defeating the telemetry, but it's not just about selling ads this time. This is about actual surveillance and (eventually) control, and the governments of the world will make this a requirement, and make circumvention of it as illegal as copyright infringement. In the US, the government will throw up it's hands and say it's not us; it's the "free" market, and this must be what people want, while all the automakers collude to do it, collect the data, and either let the NSA have it, or don't resist when they tap into it. And some people will think this is a good thing, because then we could throw literally everyone who was at J6 in prison, but then a conservative government gets thrust into power, and now they can go after everyone who was present at a BLM protest that turned violent (but I repeat myself). Whatever power "we" let "them" have will eventually be used against "us."
I haven't dug too much into the methodology, but it seems like it's done based on privacy policies rather than actually looking into the car telemetry traffic. It's also written in a very caaual and sensationalist "omagad" tone that doesn't serve well the seriousness of the topic or findings
I own a VW ID.4. For reasons I wanted to reverse engineer some of the API. After authenticating to the account tied to my car, the landing page (https://www.vw.com/en/owners.html) makes calls to a lot of analytics trackers. I'll just list what pi-hole defaults block:
analytics.tiktok.com
sp.analytics.yahoo.com
googletagmanger.com
universal.iperceptions.com
cdn4.userzoom.com
snap.licdn.com
secure-ds.serving-sys.com
bat.bing.com
ct.pinterest.com
adherent.com
And a few others. I would guess the phone app (which has access to the car location) has a similar list of trackers. I hope to get some time to MITM the app to be able to know for sure.
I read the original article and conspicuously absent is the actual mechanism of the data collection that is occurring here. Some of the claims seem barely believable.
Is data exfiltrated from the phone, via some kind of data access loophole in Android Auto / Car Play? Are the microphones in vehicles actively listening to conversations and shipping them off for analysis? Or is this all purely hypothetical (i.e., they say they have the right to use it, so clearly they must be trying to acquire it...)?
The only techniques I can imagine that might lead to collection of data such as sexual activity are truly egregious indeed, and although I have incredibly low trust in auto makers such techniques seem like a bridge too far, even for them.
I've got a 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee and I've been searching for where the sim card is for the built in cellular modem so I can rip it out.
It astounds me that there aren't more people interested in cutting off the constant telemetry and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if the car refuses to operate correctly when I do figure out where it's at and pull it.
> it wouldn't surprise me if the car refuses to operate correctly
I know of a car (Renault in EU) whose SIM access is broken somehow that still works fine, just can't call home. No guarantee that every car will handle it gracefully, but at least some regions don't seem to mandate any enforcement if that module happens to "break".
I feel like if this were happening 20 years ago, common wisdom would develop to buy from a list of model of cars where people had already blazed the path, directions of what the cell modem looks like and how to unplug it, prominent links to a community working on a libre replacement, and majority opinion of this is just what you should do to cope in the modern world. Now with the web community being so diffuse the majority opinion basically seems to be "whatevs". Perhaps if you dug into the right threads on the right manufacturer-specific forum you could find a thread or two with some investigation, but that's about it. It's also essentially impossible to navigate/compare the amenability of different makes to this.
FWIW I've got no actual experience, but given the general slowness with which the car industry moves I would guess the cell modem is just a module hanging off one of the CAN buses, receiving telemetry broadcast by other modules and injecting/interrogating commands when requested (like modern OBD2 ports). I suppose it could also be part of something like the gauge cluster that links different buses as well (at least on Hondas) but with the modular way cars seem to work I'd guess it's not likely.
I'd try to track down a copy of the factory service manual for your model. Those have seem to have gotten pretty thin these days too in favor of computer-based documentation, but it should at least help you work out how things are generally connected. (No point to the readily-available Haynes manual though. Those are apparently garbage)
This is very much in line with the industry trying desperately to get into the tech recurring revenue model.
> the manufacturer collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data, though there’s no details about how exactly that data is gathered
How is that even possible? Without more details about what this means and how it's done, this sounds a bit fishy to me.
> Mozilla said it was unable to determine whether the brands encrypt any of the data they collect
Given the auto industry's track record at security, I'm gonna go ahead and assume they _all_ store all that in a 2005-era non updated mysql database protected by root/password exported nightly as a clear-text csv file to an open network folder. And since they all do it they can call it an industry standard.
> Berg said the MercedesMe Connect app gives users privacy settings and the ability to opt-out of certain services.
Given that these folks try to sell you everything in the car you already bought as a service, that's a nice way of saying "if you're concerned about us collecting stool sample while using rated seats, you can use your car as a decorative piece in your garage if you want,l".
Yesterday, you visited a dating site a bunch. Today, you drove to a house that wasn’t yours and the passenger side door opened. Then you drove to a restaurant and the passenger side door opened again. Then you drove back to the house you don’t live at and the car was there overnight.
> Without more details about what this means and how it's done
The article seems to be based on a review of the privacy policies rather than sniffing actual collected data. We can conclude the policy leaves openings for them to do it, but it may not in fact be done at this time.
> collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data
> Sources for collection: Direct contact with users and Nissan employees.
Also:
> by occupying a vehicle that is utilizing such services you agree to Nissan collecting and using the information
> You promise to educate and inform all users and occupants of your Vehicle
Interesting Note: I think this implies if you are a Uber / Lyft / ect... customer you consent to Nissan collecting your sex activity and genetic information and all related secondary analyses by occupying the vehicle.
> How is that even possible? Without more details about what this means and how it's done, this sounds a bit fishy to me.
Did you visit some explicit site without VPN (or at least a private tab)? Bingo. The data brokers will correlate you. Once your data can be correlated, whatever they gather is thrown into the pool. I'll bet that there's some back-scratching going on somewhere. Hey we know all about where John is at when he's driving, and we'll sell/give you that data and in exchange we'd like to buy/trade some ads on those other sites-of-interest he/she goes to.
In modern era everything mechanical, or analog is being replaced with digital, or with something "as a software". Product is replaced with "service".
When everything becomes in the end connected with the Internet, everything is dependent... A system crash of AWS, Google, or any other monolithic provider will have drastic results. A system crash could halt many cars in a country. In the future Hackers could stall entire country transportation.
With oligopoly,monopoly the power player can decide with very granular precision what you can, and cannot do, where you can go. You have no power to object. Even government bodies could be against you, or could be too small to fight big corporations.
More
- cameras in cars. What they will detect? If I am drunk, or something more? Will there be glitches to record more stuff? Will the cars have back doors for governments?
- what kind of data will cars collect? Audio? Video? Biometrics? Facial data? Hate speech?
- they can analyze where you go, why you do something, maybe for analytics, for governments, or for ad business
- they can define terms of conditions, which of course can allow the producers to sell your data to third parties for cheaper models of cars
At first you will be able to mitigate. You will be able to buy older cards. Eventually we will not be able to choose a different life. There is no really opt out if everybody implements techno-feudalistic software patterns.
Certain cars let you physically disable this. For example, the Tacoma has a "Data Communication Module" (DCM) that performs all of this and has a cell radio to phone home. There's a fuse in the fusebox you can pull to prevent the DCM from getting any power. Only side effect is the in-cabin microphone stops working and you can reconnect the fuse at any time.
It's as if the engineering team didn't want to develop a spying product and made a convenient way to disable it...
> Many people think of their car as a private space — somewhere to call your doctor, have a personal conversation with your kid on the way to school..
The above quote was 100% true just a few years ago but it appears to be vanishing in speed light as the tech advances and the race to collect private data reaches its peak.
I’m afraid we will have to check the “I Agree to Terms and Conditions” in our new cars and before even leaving the dealership parking or getting the usual message: “Hey there, we’re updating our terms and conditions, accept to unlock your car”
I’m afraid that once we reach fully-autonomous driving, Ads will start showing up in the car’s digital cockpit and/or head-up display.. probably, based on your current location, mood, the radio station you’re currently listening to.. you name it..
It almost feels silly to ask, but is this legal even in the United States with its comparatively weak privacy laws? In many states, a vehicle is legally an extension of the home. So legal rights and protections that apply in one's home also apply in one's vehicle. Is the idea that, buried somewhere in the legalese, is a statement that the buyer is granting the automaker the right to spy?
I connect my phone to my 2015 Nissan's bluetooth, but just for music. GrapheneOS lets me prevent its access to my contacts, call history, active calls, text messages - anything but music audio. To me (but not the less tech literate, I know), if you're connecting your car to your phone, it's obvious that it is able to gather things about you.
That said, because I don't know much about cars, I don't know if the car is even capable of phoning home or by what means. Is it a 4G signal? Just a radio transponder? How do I even investigate without tearing my dash apart?
Yes, and that is why I will never buy new unless in the contract I have;
1. No data harvesting
2. If I or anyone discovers any kind of data harvesting, at any time, I get a full refund of the original purchase price plus interest plus 2000 USD from the manufacture. If not received in 6 months, it double ever 6 months.
But from what I understand, I heard due to Massachusetts "Right to Repair", all of that is turned off.
But time for the Federal Gov to step in. I expect they will since some Congress Critter will complain about the Auto Industry tracking them or their children. Or, more then likely, due to how the US Gov have been operating for the last 30 years or so, Congress people will get to purchase "special" vehicles.
I think it will be a good differentiation factor in a few years, that a brand comes up with an offline car, i.e. a car that you just refuel/charge and drive - no telemetry/connected features involved.
It may be a niche thing in future, but certainly something that would be appealing to me as a consumer.
I want to know how these license agreements work, legally speaking?
We bought a new car and signed the purchase agreement. Nowhere was there anything resembling a software license. Some months later, the display has a pop-up "our terms and conditions have changed". Um...which terms would those be, and when did we ever agree to them? Anyway, how can they make a one-sided change to a contract?
I have a new EV (a modest MG ZS long range 2022) and I'm not much concerned about privacy BUT much, much, much more about remote controls ability from the factory AND potentially someone else due to some crapware vulnerabilities who happen to be vast https://samcurry.net/web-hackers-vs-the-auto-industry/
My take is simple:
- all cars can be connected BUT the connection must be user controllable, meaning the car must run on FLOSS easily installable by the formal owner;
- all cars can offer remote controls BUT in a classic ssh-alike fashion, meaning it's ok to have a web(cr)app for end users, but not proxyed by the OEM only. OEM might act as a proxy to circumvent NAT, but the user is free to choose a DynDNS and other P2P/distributed solution hosted alone.
In mere privacy IMVHO my car can snoop videos of me/anything surrounding / capture audio no more and no less than an Android or iOS macrospy also know as smartphones. So I'm equally concerned BUT so far such smart devices can't potentially lock me outside in the middle of anything, making me crash on some people and than state I'm a terrorist crushing on purpose and so on. Witch limit much the risk surface.
Just wait until insurance companies demand access to your cars telemetry for either a "discount" or even to insure you at all.
I'm seriously thinking of stockpiling a few extra used "dumb" cars. This is beyond nuts.
I don't understand. This seems clearly illegal to have policies like this that claim consent by sitting in the car but the "user" has never been presented the policy in a way to consent to!
Is this just a good lawsuit away from being thrown out but no one has done it? Is there some particularly fucked up legal precedent that makes this tenuously legally stable?
The article is not very clear about whether this kind of abusive data collection is actually happening and they can prove it, or whether they found the text of the privacy policies to be overly broad. I have no idea how a car would infer my sexual orientation.
this is ironic; my wife bought a brand new 2020 model year Nissan 370Z 50th anniversary edition in 2021, and it feels like it is from the late 90s.
no touch screen (actually no screen at all!), no GPS/navigation, no tracking, no Bluetooth audio streaming(!!) it does have mobile phone Bluetooth connectivity and a terrible backup camera but those are the only bits of modern in-car tech it has.
it feels like a very analog modern sports car without any of the crap that most modern sports cars have.
more of this please!
sadly, seems like the new Z coupe went all-in on the in-car tech, much like Nissan's other offerings.
[+] [-] tristor|2 years ago|reply
Nonetheless I’ve been in the market for a new car for months and haven’t bought because it’s hard to find any cars that meet my requirements (after all most companies primarily make trucks and shitty crossovers, not even cars). The two things that consistently hold me back are either things like this (crazy telemetry / touchscreens everywhere / half-ass safety tech) or insane dealer markups. I’ve pretty much figured out the new Toyota GR Corolla is the perfect car for my needs, but you can’t find them anywhere without a $25K+ dealer markup and many dealers won’t sell them to out of state residents.
It’s truly a crazy time in the new car markets and the used market isn’t really any better.
[+] [-] cpursley|2 years ago|reply
They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.
[+] [-] devilbunny|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ranger_danger|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hedora|2 years ago|reply
The i3 has been discontinued and the new models have a touch screen in addition to the jog wheel, so it's possible the jog wheel on those is poorly implemented, and not enough to actually use the car.
I haven't test driven one of the newer models, but I'd carefully check the computer UI before purchasing one.
Anyway, I'm hoping BMW succeeds with their contrarian approach of having physical controls, and not treating their customers terribly, and that the other manufacturers follow their lead.
[+] [-] tim333|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] spacemadness|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lunias|2 years ago|reply
2023 Toyota GR Corolla AWD
3285 LBS / 300 HP = 10.9 LBS / HP
RANGE: 25 mpg * 13.2 gallons = 330 mi
PRICE: 44k
--------------------------------------------------
2012 VW MK6 GTI (K04) FWD
3000 LBS / 330 WHP = 9.1 LBS / WHP
RANGE: 23 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 333 mi
PRICE: < 30k (to buy a used GTI and install the same mods including labor)
--------------------------------------------------
I think the GR Corolla is great, but even after 11 years it's sadly not really a convincing upgrade for me. The GR Corolla is less powerful (in both torque and horsepower), it has one less cylinder and less displacement, it weighs more, it gets essentially the same mileage and has the same range, and it costs much more. The Corolla does have AWD though.
Here's the common "upgrade" for me:
2023 VW Golf R AWD
3400 LBS / 315 HP = 10.8 LBS / HP
RANGE: 28 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 406 mi
PRICE: 47k
--------------------------------------------------
Again, the Golf R is also great, but it's also less powerful and weighs more. It gets slightly better mileage than my current car, but costs even more than the GR Corolla.
Finding something new that is "better" out of the box than my 11 year old GTI would cost me at least 56k (Toyota GR Supra RWD) or if I want AWD then it's more like 66k (Audi RS3 AWD). If I want something electric and "better" then it's at least 89k (Tesla Model S). These prices are really high to begin with; when you add in dealer markups they become insane propositions. For your money you'll also have to contend with with touch screens, capacitive buttons, and a bunch of other tech that you don't want or need. The market seems to be in a pretty sad state for car guys. Unless something changes I'll be rebuilding my engine with forged internals and continuing to drive my GTI.
[+] [-] bonestamp2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klaussilveira|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yafbum|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dataminded|2 years ago|reply
It feels impossibly hard to buy a great car today.
[+] [-] psyclobe|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nilespotter|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brandonagr2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheRealDunkirk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EricE|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] charles_f|2 years ago|reply
I haven't dug too much into the methodology, but it seems like it's done based on privacy policies rather than actually looking into the car telemetry traffic. It's also written in a very caaual and sensationalist "omagad" tone that doesn't serve well the seriousness of the topic or findings
[+] [-] sfaxon|2 years ago|reply
analytics.tiktok.com
sp.analytics.yahoo.com
googletagmanger.com
universal.iperceptions.com
cdn4.userzoom.com
snap.licdn.com
secure-ds.serving-sys.com
bat.bing.com
ct.pinterest.com
adherent.com
And a few others. I would guess the phone app (which has access to the car location) has a similar list of trackers. I hope to get some time to MITM the app to be able to know for sure.
[+] [-] JeremyNT|2 years ago|reply
I read the original article and conspicuously absent is the actual mechanism of the data collection that is occurring here. Some of the claims seem barely believable.
Is data exfiltrated from the phone, via some kind of data access loophole in Android Auto / Car Play? Are the microphones in vehicles actively listening to conversations and shipping them off for analysis? Or is this all purely hypothetical (i.e., they say they have the right to use it, so clearly they must be trying to acquire it...)?
The only techniques I can imagine that might lead to collection of data such as sexual activity are truly egregious indeed, and although I have incredibly low trust in auto makers such techniques seem like a bridge too far, even for them.
[+] [-] spookie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nhance|2 years ago|reply
It astounds me that there aren't more people interested in cutting off the constant telemetry and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if the car refuses to operate correctly when I do figure out where it's at and pull it.
[+] [-] pgeorgi|2 years ago|reply
I know of a car (Renault in EU) whose SIM access is broken somehow that still works fine, just can't call home. No guarantee that every car will handle it gracefully, but at least some regions don't seem to mandate any enforcement if that module happens to "break".
[+] [-] joezydeco|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Sander_Marechal|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mindslight|2 years ago|reply
FWIW I've got no actual experience, but given the general slowness with which the car industry moves I would guess the cell modem is just a module hanging off one of the CAN buses, receiving telemetry broadcast by other modules and injecting/interrogating commands when requested (like modern OBD2 ports). I suppose it could also be part of something like the gauge cluster that links different buses as well (at least on Hondas) but with the modular way cars seem to work I'd guess it's not likely.
I'd try to track down a copy of the factory service manual for your model. Those have seem to have gotten pretty thin these days too in favor of computer-based documentation, but it should at least help you work out how things are generally connected. (No point to the readily-available Haynes manual though. Those are apparently garbage)
[+] [-] noman-land|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vorpalhex|2 years ago|reply
Could use an SDR or emf reader. It'll take a while since you need to catch a cellular keep alive but otherwise should be fine.
[+] [-] charles_f|2 years ago|reply
> the manufacturer collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data, though there’s no details about how exactly that data is gathered
How is that even possible? Without more details about what this means and how it's done, this sounds a bit fishy to me.
> Mozilla said it was unable to determine whether the brands encrypt any of the data they collect
Given the auto industry's track record at security, I'm gonna go ahead and assume they _all_ store all that in a 2005-era non updated mysql database protected by root/password exported nightly as a clear-text csv file to an open network folder. And since they all do it they can call it an industry standard.
> Berg said the MercedesMe Connect app gives users privacy settings and the ability to opt-out of certain services.
Given that these folks try to sell you everything in the car you already bought as a service, that's a nice way of saying "if you're concerned about us collecting stool sample while using rated seats, you can use your car as a decorative piece in your garage if you want,l".
[+] [-] cortesoft|2 years ago|reply
Yesterday, you visited a dating site a bunch. Today, you drove to a house that wasn’t yours and the passenger side door opened. Then you drove to a restaurant and the passenger side door opened again. Then you drove back to the house you don’t live at and the car was there overnight.
[+] [-] alwaysbeconsing|2 years ago|reply
The article seems to be based on a review of the privacy policies rather than sniffing actual collected data. We can conclude the policy leaves openings for them to do it, but it may not in fact be done at this time.
[+] [-] araes|2 years ago|reply
"How is this possible" re:
> collects information including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data
> Sources for collection: Direct contact with users and Nissan employees.
Also:
> by occupying a vehicle that is utilizing such services you agree to Nissan collecting and using the information
> You promise to educate and inform all users and occupants of your Vehicle
Interesting Note: I think this implies if you are a Uber / Lyft / ect... customer you consent to Nissan collecting your sex activity and genetic information and all related secondary analyses by occupying the vehicle.
[+] [-] lambdasquirrel|2 years ago|reply
Did you visit some explicit site without VPN (or at least a private tab)? Bingo. The data brokers will correlate you. Once your data can be correlated, whatever they gather is thrown into the pool. I'll bet that there's some back-scratching going on somewhere. Hey we know all about where John is at when he's driving, and we'll sell/give you that data and in exchange we'd like to buy/trade some ads on those other sites-of-interest he/she goes to.
[+] [-] renegat0x0|2 years ago|reply
When everything becomes in the end connected with the Internet, everything is dependent... A system crash of AWS, Google, or any other monolithic provider will have drastic results. A system crash could halt many cars in a country. In the future Hackers could stall entire country transportation.
With oligopoly,monopoly the power player can decide with very granular precision what you can, and cannot do, where you can go. You have no power to object. Even government bodies could be against you, or could be too small to fight big corporations.
More
- cameras in cars. What they will detect? If I am drunk, or something more? Will there be glitches to record more stuff? Will the cars have back doors for governments?
- what kind of data will cars collect? Audio? Video? Biometrics? Facial data? Hate speech?
- they can analyze where you go, why you do something, maybe for analytics, for governments, or for ad business
- they can define terms of conditions, which of course can allow the producers to sell your data to third parties for cheaper models of cars
At first you will be able to mitigate. You will be able to buy older cards. Eventually we will not be able to choose a different life. There is no really opt out if everybody implements techno-feudalistic software patterns.
[+] [-] enriquto|2 years ago|reply
I have bad news for you: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
[+] [-] lotsofpulp|2 years ago|reply
The more would be if you are watching your phone, in 99% of cases.
[+] [-] ashafer|2 years ago|reply
It's as if the engineering team didn't want to develop a spying product and made a convenient way to disable it...
[+] [-] vannucci|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] redbell|2 years ago|reply
The above quote was 100% true just a few years ago but it appears to be vanishing in speed light as the tech advances and the race to collect private data reaches its peak.
I’m afraid we will have to check the “I Agree to Terms and Conditions” in our new cars and before even leaving the dealership parking or getting the usual message: “Hey there, we’re updating our terms and conditions, accept to unlock your car”
I’m afraid that once we reach fully-autonomous driving, Ads will start showing up in the car’s digital cockpit and/or head-up display.. probably, based on your current location, mood, the radio station you’re currently listening to.. you name it..
What a time you might not want to live to see!
[+] [-] 0xcafefood|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 9g3890fj2|2 years ago|reply
That said, because I don't know much about cars, I don't know if the car is even capable of phoning home or by what means. Is it a 4G signal? Just a radio transponder? How do I even investigate without tearing my dash apart?
[+] [-] jcrash|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmclnx|2 years ago|reply
1. No data harvesting
2. If I or anyone discovers any kind of data harvesting, at any time, I get a full refund of the original purchase price plus interest plus 2000 USD from the manufacture. If not received in 6 months, it double ever 6 months.
But from what I understand, I heard due to Massachusetts "Right to Repair", all of that is turned off.
But time for the Federal Gov to step in. I expect they will since some Congress Critter will complain about the Auto Industry tracking them or their children. Or, more then likely, due to how the US Gov have been operating for the last 30 years or so, Congress people will get to purchase "special" vehicles.
[+] [-] hashtag-til|2 years ago|reply
It may be a niche thing in future, but certainly something that would be appealing to me as a consumer.
[+] [-] bradley13|2 years ago|reply
We bought a new car and signed the purchase agreement. Nowhere was there anything resembling a software license. Some months later, the display has a pop-up "our terms and conditions have changed". Um...which terms would those be, and when did we ever agree to them? Anyway, how can they make a one-sided change to a contract?
[+] [-] kkfx|2 years ago|reply
My take is simple:
- all cars can be connected BUT the connection must be user controllable, meaning the car must run on FLOSS easily installable by the formal owner;
- all cars can offer remote controls BUT in a classic ssh-alike fashion, meaning it's ok to have a web(cr)app for end users, but not proxyed by the OEM only. OEM might act as a proxy to circumvent NAT, but the user is free to choose a DynDNS and other P2P/distributed solution hosted alone.
In mere privacy IMVHO my car can snoop videos of me/anything surrounding / capture audio no more and no less than an Android or iOS macrospy also know as smartphones. So I'm equally concerned BUT so far such smart devices can't potentially lock me outside in the middle of anything, making me crash on some people and than state I'm a terrorist crushing on purpose and so on. Witch limit much the risk surface.
[+] [-] EricE|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eximius|2 years ago|reply
Is this just a good lawsuit away from being thrown out but no one has done it? Is there some particularly fucked up legal precedent that makes this tenuously legally stable?
[+] [-] yafbum|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ricktdotorg|2 years ago|reply
this is ironic; my wife bought a brand new 2020 model year Nissan 370Z 50th anniversary edition in 2021, and it feels like it is from the late 90s.
no touch screen (actually no screen at all!), no GPS/navigation, no tracking, no Bluetooth audio streaming(!!) it does have mobile phone Bluetooth connectivity and a terrible backup camera but those are the only bits of modern in-car tech it has.
it feels like a very analog modern sports car without any of the crap that most modern sports cars have.
more of this please!
sadly, seems like the new Z coupe went all-in on the in-car tech, much like Nissan's other offerings.