Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm, particularly in e.g. the UK) and the United States (and now Australia), though perhaps this is just down to different native fauna.
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
I feel like the attitude towards outdoor cats online in the United States is a lot different than the attitude in regular life, at least where I live in California.
There are a ton of cats that wander outside in our neighborhood, and I have never heard a single person say anything about it. Online, you get flamed if you even hint at your cat being outside.
This is not a big deal in the United States as far as I'm aware. At least, nowhere I've ever lived (9 states so far) had anything like a cat curfew. Animal control mostly ignores them and focuses on dogs. If nothing else, Australia's ecosystems are inherently more fragile than those of the Americas and Eurasia just because of the relative isolation. Americas are also relatively more isolated and fragile than Eurasia (big part of why natives were easy to conquer - no horses and very little disease resistance), but not as much as Australia.
That said, even though introduction of cats everywhere but Eurasia was also human action, the contribution of domestic cats to wildlife endangerment is minuscule next to everything else humans do. Habitat loss from cities, monoculture farming, and building roads everywhere does way more destruction than cats can ever do. Cats are arguably even critical to urban rodent control, which is probably why we started keeping them as pets in the first place (aside from being so damn cute). Feeding off our stray trash would put rats and racoons and what not totally out of control if nothing was preying on them.
> The RSPB themselves have said.....there’s no evidence this is affecting decline
The RSPB know which side their bread is buttered. They are a charity who get their donations from "animal lovers", inducing cat 'owners'. They certainly won't say anything which might prejudice this source of income.
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe
Plenty of people here in Blighty despise roaming cats leaving turds in their gardens and killing the local wildlife.
I've barred cats from the garden here after cleaning up a pile of trash for the nth time. It took some doing but it's mostly solved and it is incredible how quickly the birds seem to have found out that our garden is a safe haven. I've seen bird species that I didn't even know were in this region.
curiosity begs to know precisely how you've done this. neither of my cats scale my 8' privacy wooden fence, but that's because they are comfy (fat and lazy/have no interest to leave) house cats that are allowed to play in the back yard. however, the neighborhood roaming cats have no problem scaling the fence, as both of my cats are aware when they chase to defend their turf.
In Western Australia (I think), cats are already restricted to the house plus exterior deck/veranda/patio, which must be caged to prevent them from going further. This is referred to as a ‘catio’. I suspect that, given the bugs, putting an insect screen around your patio has other benefits too.
Googling for other articles in this with more details, it looks the places that have implemented cat curfews are requiring cats to be indoors at night.
That's interesting, because in the US most concern over cats killing other animals is for birds and those birds are almost all diurnal. The non-birds cats kill a lot of are also mostly diurnal or crepuscular (active around sunrise and sunset). The nocturnal animals cats kill seem to be mostly things that most people are happy to have them kill (rats and mice).
So in the US if there was a cat curfew I'd expect it to be that cats have to be indoors by dawn, and can't be let out until the end of twilight.
A cat curfew at night in Australia suggests that it is nocturnal animals Australians are worried about. Which animals are those?
Are cats not as big a problem for diurnal animals there because those animals are scary Australian animals that cats are afraid to fuck with, or scary Australian animals that people are happy to have cats get rid of?
I would not be drawing connections to reality from government actions. California imposed COVID curfew [1] just because they could, not because the viruses are nocturnal. At best, if there was actually any thought put into it at all, it's to trap feral cats at night, when they are most active, and if any house cat gets trapped too the owner can be told to get stuffed and ticketed for violating the curfew.
This is not an issue just for Australia. There seems to be an epidemic of stray cats here in the US also. Many come from people that leave their animals behind when they have to move, and the issue seems to escalate every time there is a downturn in the economy.
The stray situation is even worse in europe. US you might see a couple random strays in your neighborhood. Certain cities in europe you can walk 10 minutes and probably come by 100 cats along the way.
I live in the suburbs in SF Bay Area, and at night when I walk my dog, I never see cats roaming around. I see coyotes, foxes, skunks, and raccoons. My guess is if you don't kill the coyotes and foxes they control the cat population.
Where I live we're completely overrun with squirrels. I'd have no problem with more roaming cats killing them, ditto for pigeons. Are they actually threatening species or just eating animals? If it's the latter it doesn't seem like a problem. Fewer cats is going to mean more vermin, we'll see how people like it then.
If you can breed a cat so that it only eats the "bad" small animals, go ahead.
But you do need to remember cats tend to love to hunt _everything_. Just a few freely roaming cats are enough to make sure you won't be hearing any small birds chirping in the trees in your area. Because they're all dead.
I find the title and article really strange. Murder is specifically defined as the UNLAWFUL killing of a HUMAN BEING.
Murder basically is a legal definiton. Anything else is just killing. And I don't think this definition applies to cats at all.
"Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethough" (1)
> are any of this cats going to be put in trial for "murder"
“For centuries, the courts of France, Italy, Switzerland, and other nearby countries tried pigs, dogs, rats, grasshoppers, and snails for crimes against people, property, and God. These animal trials were of two kinds: (1) secular suits against individual creatures who had maimed or killed humans; and (2) ecclesiastic cases against vermin like mice and locusts, who were excommunicated for their grain-related crimes.”
Australia has been fighting with invasive species for a long time. Just look at the problems they had with rabbits. Dingos are pretty much already diluted with domesticated dog genes, so there goes that species in a few generations.
It would seem like trying to protect native species should be a priority for the government.
Short-sighted -- Austraila's unique fauna is a huge source of tourism, a considerable part of Australia's GDP. Protecting fauna is as much an economic interest as an envrionmental.
(Why only feral cats, and say, not global warming, is another issue and illustrates where economic interests trump envrionmental ones.)
You think losing 2 billion of Australia's unique native fauna each year is a triviality?
Feral cats are a serious problem in Australia just like other introduced species. The government has had programs for controlling and eradicating them for many decades.
I'm not in Australian and I know Australia has a fairly unique ecosystem and this necessitates different laws than other countries. Similarly weird laws exist in every country. For example in my area it's specifically illegal not to provide heating of a specific quality to tenants, because we have a season called "winter" where temperatures drop enough to be deadly.
Chinese people cook cats and dogs, Australia should allow more immigrants. Chinese mafia also lends them money to start business in other countries like restaurants. And China's covert overseas police that operates in each city controls them. It's a win-win situation. /s
[+] [-] lol768|2 years ago|reply
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
Research in the UK has suggested cats are mostly preying on the "doomed surplus": https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X....
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
[+] [-] cortesoft|2 years ago|reply
There are a ton of cats that wander outside in our neighborhood, and I have never heard a single person say anything about it. Online, you get flamed if you even hint at your cat being outside.
[+] [-] cultofmetatron|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eliaspro|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nonameiguess|2 years ago|reply
That said, even though introduction of cats everywhere but Eurasia was also human action, the contribution of domestic cats to wildlife endangerment is minuscule next to everything else humans do. Habitat loss from cities, monoculture farming, and building roads everywhere does way more destruction than cats can ever do. Cats are arguably even critical to urban rodent control, which is probably why we started keeping them as pets in the first place (aside from being so damn cute). Feeding off our stray trash would put rats and racoons and what not totally out of control if nothing was preying on them.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] FridayNightTV|2 years ago|reply
The RSPB know which side their bread is buttered. They are a charity who get their donations from "animal lovers", inducing cat 'owners'. They certainly won't say anything which might prejudice this source of income.
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe
Plenty of people here in Blighty despise roaming cats leaving turds in their gardens and killing the local wildlife.
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dylan604|2 years ago|reply
curiosity begs to know precisely how you've done this. neither of my cats scale my 8' privacy wooden fence, but that's because they are comfy (fat and lazy/have no interest to leave) house cats that are allowed to play in the back yard. however, the neighborhood roaming cats have no problem scaling the fence, as both of my cats are aware when they chase to defend their turf.
[+] [-] patrickdavey|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PlunderBunny|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tzs|2 years ago|reply
That's interesting, because in the US most concern over cats killing other animals is for birds and those birds are almost all diurnal. The non-birds cats kill a lot of are also mostly diurnal or crepuscular (active around sunrise and sunset). The nocturnal animals cats kill seem to be mostly things that most people are happy to have them kill (rats and mice).
So in the US if there was a cat curfew I'd expect it to be that cats have to be indoors by dawn, and can't be let out until the end of twilight.
A cat curfew at night in Australia suggests that it is nocturnal animals Australians are worried about. Which animals are those?
Are cats not as big a problem for diurnal animals there because those animals are scary Australian animals that cats are afraid to fuck with, or scary Australian animals that people are happy to have cats get rid of?
[+] [-] pandaman|2 years ago|reply
1. https://www.kcra.com/article/california-limited-curfew-covid...
[+] [-] ratsmack|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kjkjadksj|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nickmain|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yieldcrv|2 years ago|reply
occasionally you'll hear a harrowing mad scramble in the street, and I'm thinking "it's happening"
[+] [-] throwaway313313|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mizoguchi|2 years ago|reply
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we...
[+] [-] dkjaudyeqooe|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] version_five|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] taberiand|2 years ago|reply
https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/invasive-species/feral...
https://invasives.org.au/our-work/feral-animals/cats-in-aust...
[+] [-] derstander|2 years ago|reply
For example, see the “Four Pests Campaign”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
[+] [-] theshrike79|2 years ago|reply
But you do need to remember cats tend to love to hunt _everything_. Just a few freely roaming cats are enough to make sure you won't be hearing any small birds chirping in the trees in your area. Because they're all dead.
[+] [-] beardyw|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kaba0|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hungryforcodes|2 years ago|reply
Murder basically is a legal definiton. Anything else is just killing. And I don't think this definition applies to cats at all.
"Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethough" (1)
1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
[+] [-] golemiprague|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] pipes|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JumpCrisscross|2 years ago|reply
“For centuries, the courts of France, Italy, Switzerland, and other nearby countries tried pigs, dogs, rats, grasshoppers, and snails for crimes against people, property, and God. These animal trials were of two kinds: (1) secular suits against individual creatures who had maimed or killed humans; and (2) ecclesiastic cases against vermin like mice and locusts, who were excommunicated for their grain-related crimes.”
https://daily.jstor.org/when-societies-put-animals-on-trial/
[+] [-] labster|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] posnet|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dylan604|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vondur|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seanmcdirmid|2 years ago|reply
It would seem like trying to protect native species should be a priority for the government.
[+] [-] nness|2 years ago|reply
(Why only feral cats, and say, not global warming, is another issue and illustrates where economic interests trump envrionmental ones.)
[+] [-] bowsamic|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dkjaudyeqooe|2 years ago|reply
Feral cats are a serious problem in Australia just like other introduced species. The government has had programs for controlling and eradicating them for many decades.
[+] [-] EatingWithForks|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dylan604|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] readyplayernull|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vore|2 years ago|reply