[efaref]

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that the "middle class" was a fiction invented by the capital class to divide the working class in two and pit them against each other. If you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

[pbmonster]

> the "middle class" was a fiction invented by the capital class to divide the working class

Totally agree.

> If you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

It's not so easy.

A dentist owning his own doctor's practice - the means of production, quickly worth several million dollars - does pretty clearly belong to the (petit) bourgeoise. His interest are often clearly opposed to that of the staff he employs. Every dollar saved on salaries, every day of vacation denied means more money in his pocket.

Yet he has to work every day.

The real difference are the means of production.

[generic92034]

I am not sure putting people working from pay check to pay check or having to work two jobs to survive in the same category as people getting middle six-figures TC would be helpful for analyzing the social strata.

[interpenetrate]

You don't want to be divided from the miners who extract the minerals and the factory workers who assemble the crappy tech that we design? I do. It's absolutely squalid over there.

[Timon3]

I sure don't! I want them to have it as good as I do, and I want to use my influence to make it so. This can only work if we are one group.

[hotpotamus]

I wonder how senior tech executives see those below them? I suspect they'd say much the same about you.

[cracrecry]

The man that invented the concept of classes to divide society in order to make them fight against each other was Marx. He created the concept of "class struggle" along the classes himself.

There was a very important reason for that. Early socialist leaders were usually selected among the best in any trade. The carpenters chose the best and most successful carpenter to represent them, and so on with most professions.

That was simply unacceptable for "intellectuals" like Marx or Lenin or Trotsky that never touched a tool or worked physically on their entire lives, something they were all the time being reminded by actual workers(something Lenin hated so much).

The new Frame made them the bosses on the new system.

Like Natzis could decide who was arian or jew, even if they had dark hair or jew parents, the marxist could decide who was working class and who did not. The children of rich jew merchants that were most marxist revolutionaries could became working class if they said so.

There are lots of people that do not accept the Marxist frame at all because they are not marxist.

>if you or someone in your family has to work so that you can survive, you are working class.

As someone who has lived in Africa , Asia, South America and Europe, I tell you that 90% of people in the US don't need work to survive. Unless by "survive" you mean things like buying a pickup truck.

There are kids in Africa in which "survive" means eating once a day and their minds being confused after two hours of work like learning to read.

[thiagoharry]

Class is a very useful concept to understand societies. It's not even an exclusively Marxist concept. Weber also uses the term, but uses different metrics than Marx to distinguish between classes. How can you effectively have a good understanding of feudal society without understanding the division between feudal lords and serfs. Or between citizens, outsiders and slaves in classical Greek societies?

In discussions about philosophy ans philosophical concepts, one do not need to agree with all the interlocutor's assumptions: it is just required to understand them and discuss them in a balanced way.