[Leimi]

Framework is really appealing as thinkpads get more and more soldered everywhere. And pricing is surprisingly ok, especially if you target 64gb of RAM and a big ssd that you buy on your own and install yourself. You can almost buy 3 amd framework with those specs for one macbook pro.

Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.

[tadfisher]

Soldered LPDDR5x has more bandwidth, lower latency, and consumes less power than the equivalent DDR5 SODIMM. It can also be clocked higher due to signal integrity constraints, and you really want higher clocks with a Ryzen SOC.

If you plan on maxing-out the memory, the only advantage of SODIMMs I see are in repairability. That said, I have verified exactly one bad stick of RAM in over 3 decades of computing, so I personally think the downside of soldered RAM is overblown.

[LeonenTheDK]

For me it goes beyond repair, if I sell the device later and the next user wants more RAM, they have the option to do so. Plus bringing ram forward between mainboard upgrades (save for transitions between DDR4, DDR5, and whatever else may come in the future).

I remember now too Dell was working on a new memory module for laptops called CAMM, I think it was aiming to bridge the gap between soldered and SODIMMs, but I'm not sure where its development currently is, nor the real world differences.

[dmm]

> the only advantage of SODIMMs I see are in repairability.

Another advantage is that you don't have to buy ram from the OEM. I can buy 64GiB of ddr5 for <$150. Apple wants $400 for 64GiB.

[Leimi]

yeah I get the benefits. And yeah the "repair" argument I agree, good luck finding a bad stick :)

The real frustrating thing as for now in the real world is, there is an extremely low number of laptops with soldered ram that offers 64 GB. And the few that do, charge an absurd amount of money for it.

With socketed ram, I can:

- buy the cheapest built-in config of a laptop

- then buy the RAM I currently need on my own, often saving a few hundreds bucks just doing that

- then, in a few years, buy some new RAM again, when I need it, if I need it, instead of having to buy a whole new laptop.

That's how I went with thinkpads during 15 years. Now I have to pay 500$ more to be a bit future proof. If the manufacturer offers it. Double that if you want a mac.

So, still today, I'm 100% taking socketed ram instead of soldered one.

[ksec]

Modular LPDDR Memory Becomes A Reality: Samsung Introduces LPCAMM Memory Modules [1], fixes most of the problem. The only thing that soldered LPDDR ram offers is saved motherboard space. Which really isn't as much of a problem in modern laptop when SoC and GPU are so well integrated.

"Samsung says that LPDDR5X LPCAMMs only occupy 40% of the space of a DDR5 SO-DIMM, and improve power efficiency by up to 70%, roughly in line with the general benefit of LPDDR5X over DDR5."

[1] https://www.anandtech.com/show/21069/modular-lpddr-becomes-a...

[justinclift]

Hopefully something like CAMM gets traction, as it seems like an improvement over SO-DIMM:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/342342-jedec-says-dell...

[sva_]

> That said, I have verified exactly one bad stick of RAM in over 3 decades of computing, so I personally think the downside of soldered RAM is overblown.

Man I must've been unlucky. I had a dead DDR stick around 10 years back and LPDDR (soldered on a ThinkPad x1) die on me around 6 years ago. Both of them died very early on though and were covered by warranty.

[volkandkaya]

" has more bandwidth, lower latency, and consumes less power than the equivalent "

Any data points for the above?

Is it worth the ability to not replace them?

If so look forward to a marketplace of Framework laptops where you can easily sell your old model, and buy a new one.

[IshKebab]

Surely the main benefit is cost? RAM size (and disk size in Apple's case) are used for price differentiation. If you can replace them yourself they can't charge you through the nose for bigger sizes.

On a technical level I think you're right.

[tjoff]

... and the 10x price difference, the waste and crippled hardware, the pathetic pricing options you get. Soldered ram has no place nor reason to exist in sad reality we live in.

[topspin]

Soldering has benefits, but RAM is likely the most important thing that will need upgrading in extended service of a system.

[thomastjeffery]

> I personally think the downside of soldered RAM is overblown.

It is now, but only because it wasn't before. Narratives are slower to change than their subjects, especially in tech.

When soldered RAM started to take off, it was usually 1-2GB, which, even at the time, was a painful compromise. Even a lightweight Linux distro running a browser (i.e ChromeOS) will feel the limits of 4GB.

Now, most laptops have at least 8GB, which is good enough for most. 16GB is plenty unless you have some specialized workload that actually uses more, like compiling a large codebase or video editing.

64GB on a laptop is absurd. Whatever workload you have that needs that much memory should almost definitely run on a remote server anyway.

[layer8]

The Framework keyboards are not particularly appealing compared to (earlier) ThinkPads, in terms of layout. No full-height cursor keys or top row, too many keys missing one might want, in particular on Windows. Unfortunately the keyboard cutout is vertically so constrained that a third party also can’t do anything about it.

[panick21_]

I would love a configuration without a touch pad but with an added ThinkPad style nibble.

[deepsun]

Well, theoretically, a third-party can also change the whole keyboard cover with touchpad, not just the keyboard. Specs are open.

[diggan]

> Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.

I guess in theory you would be able to manufacture it yourself, if the specification for the chassi is available publicly (which I guess it should as that's their whole shtick?).

[jacoblambda]

You definitely could. All the details are available on the FrameworkComputer github org and you could either use what they have as a basis for a chassis or design your own custom chassis that fits the framework parts.

https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13

[rafaelmn]

I wonder if they eventually branch out into boutique quality stuff - since they should be upgradeable for at least an upgrade cycle it shouldn't be that big of a deal to have a case/keyboard that's 3-4x regular price if the quality/durability is there.

[rjh29]

I want one but it's not quite there yet for me, still 50% more expensive than a thinkpad (let alone a refurb one, which is arguably better for the environment than buying a framework) and it falls behind on keyboard, trackpad, chassis materials and number of ports. They are doing amazing work but it needs a few more iterations.

The chassis is made of much cheaper materials, it does not look cheap but it won't withstand the abuse of a thinkpad t series or similar.

[Leimi]

I'm curious how it's 50% more expensive than (new) thinkpads. Personally I'm looking for machines where there is at least 64gb soldered, or the possibility to upgrade later. In the thinkpad line that means basically only the X1 now for 13/14 inches laptops. And it's not cheaper than the framework.

I agree about the rest, a few things are not quite there yet, or maybe will never be. But on lots of things it is really refreshing.

[mkozlows]

I don't agree. I've owned a ThinkPad T and currently have a Framework. I'd give the build quality edge to the Framework, even without the repairability (which is obviously better).

[moneywoes]

what thinkpad models are you looking at? i have a t480 and it seems due for upgrade as the battery is pitiful even after upgrading

[ksec]

>Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.

That is something I "hope" they could work on, but also aware this may distract them from other much more important things. In a perfect world you could have a laptop that has the chassis of a MacBook but the portability, repairability or Framework.

[anotherhue]

I have one, it's pretty good. Not as sleek as the MBPs but perfectly functional.