I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.
I'm in Ireland, I'd say a good third of printed on labels are not even in the right currency, as companies have a single UK and Ireland SKU. It's also understood that generally it's the retailer that sets pricing, not the manfucturer, so when a book has $9.99/£8.99 printed on it and a store sticker with €12.99, nobody is confused that that's not the exchange rates, or about which price they'll pay.
Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.
That argument about multiple level taxes is always beyond me. Taxes are not stock market which changes in unknown direction constantly, they are always known at the worst weeks before implementation.
In my eastern European country even biggest supermarkets can change all labels overnight (I even bet they can can do at least twice daily - albeit with here and there confusions when there multiple labels for same good)
Almost every other country in the world has solved this problem.
It’s always fascinating when Americans have problems other countries don’t have, and just throw their hands in air saying “welp nothing we can do about it”
What do you mean "impossible" If waiter or cashier calculates final price when you pay, it must be possible to calculate it upfront. Im not aware of situations where final price would depend on the purchaser. That would be discrimination.
The good thing is that prices (in stores) are set in the store. The labels are most likely little e-ink displays. There's absolutely no reason to not show the final price there aside from wanting the advertised price to be lower than it actually is.
The same chocolate might have a different price depending on the store I go to as well and that doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
That only makes sense for an online store that's going to ship you something, in which case asking for the destination ZIP code up front solves that problem.
For brick-and-mortar stores, the store can quite easily calculate the final price of an item on its own. Sales taxes do change on occasion, but likely less often than the pricing of the items themselves do, so there's no added burden in having to update them due to tax changes.
And yet the register magically knows how much tax to add for each and every item you buy. I could maybe agree with your argument if taxes changed often, but they don't, and it's very much possible to calculate them beforehand and display full price.
I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement.
The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments are actually going. If you don't like the fact that you have to pay 3 different taxes, well, if enough other people agree with you, you can change that.
I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.
but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu
In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill.
Tartine hides the 5% surcharge at the bottom of the menu in smaller font. It's also one of three bullets: the first and third are about food safety.
What's the rationale for putting the surcharge bullet in between the two food safety bullets?
Also: if you order online from Tartine, you won't see the surcharge until you go to check out. And if you order from one of the handwritten 'daily specials' signs, you won't see the surcharge until you pay.
> The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services.
(a) is really just like the price of basically all of utilities, and all the indirect taxes paid on salaries... the only difference is that they are not directly calculated on turnover. Should we also break that out?
(b) is actually an argument in favour of integrating the taxes in the prices : there's no difference between businesses, thus no need to bother the consumers with it -- in the end, they will pay something that includes the taxes, wherever they go.
> I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.
You mean like basically everywhere in the world where your receipt does show "of which VAT rate A% : X, rate B% : Y, Special Tax: Z" ?
sacnoradhq|2 years ago
heimidal|2 years ago
darknavi|2 years ago
Macha|2 years ago
I'm in Ireland, I'd say a good third of printed on labels are not even in the right currency, as companies have a single UK and Ireland SKU. It's also understood that generally it's the retailer that sets pricing, not the manfucturer, so when a book has $9.99/£8.99 printed on it and a store sticker with €12.99, nobody is confused that that's not the exchange rates, or about which price they'll pay.
sacnoradhq|2 years ago
xmprt|2 years ago
mrktf|2 years ago
In my eastern European country even biggest supermarkets can change all labels overnight (I even bet they can can do at least twice daily - albeit with here and there confusions when there multiple labels for same good)
Doctor_Fegg|2 years ago
At the Co-op supermarket in our little UK town (population 3000) they’ve even just replaced the shelf price tickets with tiny colour displays.
shortcake27|2 years ago
It’s always fascinating when Americans have problems other countries don’t have, and just throw their hands in air saying “welp nothing we can do about it”
vincnetas|2 years ago
snehk|2 years ago
The same chocolate might have a different price depending on the store I go to as well and that doesn't seem to be a problem at all.
kelnos|2 years ago
For brick-and-mortar stores, the store can quite easily calculate the final price of an item on its own. Sales taxes do change on occasion, but likely less often than the pricing of the items themselves do, so there's no added burden in having to update them due to tax changes.
bialpio|2 years ago
megablast|2 years ago
hn_throwaway_99|2 years ago
The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments are actually going. If you don't like the fact that you have to pay 3 different taxes, well, if enough other people agree with you, you can change that.
I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.
rahimnathwani|2 years ago
Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQVtTW1FA
Tartine hides the 5% surcharge at the bottom of the menu in smaller font. It's also one of three bullets: the first and third are about food safety.
What's the rationale for putting the surcharge bullet in between the two food safety bullets?
Also: if you order online from Tartine, you won't see the surcharge until you go to check out. And if you order from one of the handwritten 'daily specials' signs, you won't see the surcharge until you pay.
(Using Tartine as an example. It's not unique.)
rapht|2 years ago
(a) is really just like the price of basically all of utilities, and all the indirect taxes paid on salaries... the only difference is that they are not directly calculated on turnover. Should we also break that out? (b) is actually an argument in favour of integrating the taxes in the prices : there's no difference between businesses, thus no need to bother the consumers with it -- in the end, they will pay something that includes the taxes, wherever they go.
> I'd be OK with listing taxes up front (but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu) but I'm absolutely in favor of breaking out the cost of government services on the bill.
You mean like basically everywhere in the world where your receipt does show "of which VAT rate A% : X, rate B% : Y, Special Tax: Z" ?
watwut|2 years ago
You can list post tax price and then write components if you so please. But showing price without tax is just attempt to look cheaper.
thinkerswell|2 years ago