Since we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories? I would think given the treatment of Jews during WWII that there would be a special desire among Israelis not to treat a group of people poorly based on immutable facts like ethnicity. I understand the hatred of Hamas but don’t understand depriving Palestinian people of medicine and clean water and free movement.
For what it’s worth I have made a good faith attempt to answer this for myself and quickly got bogged down in information about the Ottoman Empire, etc etc which I can’t imagine is a real justification today.
It's not about ethnicity or religion per se. The land israel occupies was taken by force from palestinians. Gaza specifically is to a large extent simply a refugee camp for those displaced to create the state of israel, and their descendants.
Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and farms of their grandparents. Israel has the political, economic, and military power to prevent this, and so they do.
>Since we’re off HN topic anyways, can someone ELI5 why Israel blockades / occupies Palestinian territories?
No. There are things that you can reasonably expect to explain to an average five year old children. Humanitarian horror shows entangled into complex geo-political situations twisted with religious and ethnic matters is, to my mind, not one of them.
Sure one can always try to sketch some answers, but what is the purpose you are expecting to get out of it? If you want to build a solidly informed opinion, I’m afraid that there is no shortcut royal way.
I'm a liberal Israeli. The border used to be mostly open. With the Oslo accord the Hamas started bombing civilians (busses, coffee shops etc.).
The wall is a problem but it stopped this. Hamas did its best to destroy the peace that was forming. It found a collaborator in our PM (Netanyahu) who essentially supported them and elevated them so they will fight with the PLO.
The idea was that it would prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. That was always a stupid idea... Notice that this was never "official" policy, this is my interpretation based on his actions.
Right now the specific blockade is fulled by three things:
* Rage - this is something I feel personally as everyone lost someone they know there. It's a small country... When children are murdered it tends to bring out blind rage and indifference towards the other side.
* Fear - Israel survived in a very hostile environment thanks to its ability to instill fear in its enemies. This showed a weak underbelly and Israelis are rightly concerned that anything less than complete destruction of the enemy will trigger an all out war.
* Hostages - There are civilians and children held hostage. The minister responsible for infrastructure specifically said that electricity and water won't be restored until the hostages are returned.
I personally think the bombings are absolutely horrible. I know quite a few Palestinians and my heart goes out to them. There's a mob mentality on both sides and we both lack in leadership. It took 5 days for the MODERATE head of the PLO to issue a very weak condemnation of the attack. On our side Netanyahu is as corrupt as they come. A demagogue of the worst kind. He promised to "flatten Gaza" which is stupid. I don't want that.
The Hamas has been a cancer on the Palestinian people. It murdered more Palestinians than Israel ever did. They believe in holy war and that Palestinian dead will be rewarded in the afterlife. The death of a Palestinian child is just PR for these guys. They are as terrible as they come. Unfortunately, this cancer masticated through the population. I have no easy answered but one thing I think pretty much every Israeli agrees on, they MUST be destroyed completely. Not the Palestinian people, the Hamas. My main concern is the leadership vacuum. The PLO isn't great either and won't want to collaborate with Israel after everything it did... Going back to something resembling the Oslo accord will be hard on all fronts.
Israel isn't committing genocide in the Gaza strip. Lets not go there.
In fact, lets not blame the victims. Israel is defending themselves from aggressors and so I don't go far at all to consider their hasty response to the situation.
Next, "what palestinian territory?"
The british through blood, death and gore took that land. They formed Israel who has kept the land through blood, death and gore.
Did the palestianians take the land by force? Were they given land? Nope and Nope.
If there was a blockade - how so many weapons got in?
Guarding the borders is essential - we saw what they did in a few hours without them.
Burning women alive. Decapitating babies. Raping teenagers then shooting them.
Without a guarded border - they'll do a second holocaust.
That's not a speculation - that's a proven fact.
I think it is absolutely grotesque and distasteful to hold pro rallies for Palestine and Hamas right now, but I would not stop them. They should be free to protest and speak.
There's also some sort of ban in place in my home country of Germany. I think there's technically no ban, but people keep getting arrested for protesting regardless.
Germany has very strict laws against hate-speech and incitement of hatred ("Volkzverhetzung"), that would probably be the reason for people being arrested. For historic reasons.
Germany has a great deal to answer for the fate of modern day Palestinians. The most decisive factor next to Sykes Picot. They naturally have no interest in that debate.
No constituional protection is absolute, as they usually contradict each other to at least some extend. The difference where different societies place the focus - the US is strongly in favor of freedom of speech, whereas European states usually are less absolutist about speech.
Censorship is rearing its ugly head again. Can't have the wrong opinions. I feel like this really took off with the Corona virus pandemic, again with the Ukraine invasion, and now this.
Yes, all the people who couldn't imagine the censorship being used against "their team," here it is. It always happens. Censorship is the tool of authoritarians. Fight it in every form.
No, democracies have to have limits what they tolerate. Killing civilians just because they have a certain religion is incompatible with western values. The limit should be too not be tolerant with people that are not willing to provide the same tolerance. By that standard celebrating the killing of civilians we shouldn't tolerate.
Multiple governments have already come to feel that the sort of rhetoric that appears at these demonstrations, like chanting “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”, crosses the line into advocacy of genocide and are not mere opinions. Advocacy of genocide has been forbidden since long before COVID happened.
It’s important to remember that after the Holocaust, European nations have a special responsibility to the Jewish people, and therefore they often err on the side of caution in preventing that people from being targets of potentially genocidal rhetoric.
France essentially has inquisition courts, which for example Houellebecq [1] (a prominent author) and Zemmour [2] (a former presidential candidate) had to suffer through.
I've commented about this overall situation in France a few times, and yes, they've gone after fundamental rights also before. Which is kind of weird given their history.
EDIT: Over again, some Americans seem to think that this is about the "freedom of speech", whereas, in reality, it is about the freedom of assembly. That said, the situation seems pretty dire, with organizations classified as terrorists on the streets.
Don't even attempt to muddy the waters like this. Zemmour has been sued many times, yes, but only convicted twice. The first time, for example, for saying "businesses should discriminate against blacks and Arabs". He was convicted for incitement to discrimination, an offense in many countries. In fact: he was sued for several things he said, like "traffickers are all black and muslim" which he was acquitted for, as while reproachable falls within freedom of expression. Again: only convicted for things which directly contravene specific laws, such as non-discrimination in hiring.
Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration.
It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence.
Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted.
Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that every Israeli man, woman and child is a valid military target.
And of course people legitimately holding a vigil for peace and supporting the human rights of Palestinian civilians are not guilty of hate, so long as they don't justify or downplay the crimes of Hamas. But many of the rallies were absolutely something else that has no place in a free or decent society.
I've seen plenty of Palestinians interviewed on TV who said "I'm disgusted by the attacks of Hamas. All I want is peace for our people." Everyone can support a statement like that, and if the organizers of these rallies cared they could have thrown out anyone who didn't.
> Why are people calling them hate rallies? Because their immediate response to an unprecedented atrocity was to spontaneously organize a public celebration.
Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right before or after Charlottesville?
[+] [-] voisin|2 years ago|reply
For what it’s worth I have made a good faith attempt to answer this for myself and quickly got bogged down in information about the Ottoman Empire, etc etc which I can’t imagine is a real justification today.
[+] [-] giraffe_lady|2 years ago|reply
Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and farms of their grandparents. Israel has the political, economic, and military power to prevent this, and so they do.
[+] [-] psychoslave|2 years ago|reply
No. There are things that you can reasonably expect to explain to an average five year old children. Humanitarian horror shows entangled into complex geo-political situations twisted with religious and ethnic matters is, to my mind, not one of them.
Sure one can always try to sketch some answers, but what is the purpose you are expecting to get out of it? If you want to build a solidly informed opinion, I’m afraid that there is no shortcut royal way.
But if this answer seems unsatisfying to you, maybe you can try https://eli5.gg/why%20Israel%20blockades%20%2F%20occupies%20...
[+] [-] invalidname|2 years ago|reply
The wall is a problem but it stopped this. Hamas did its best to destroy the peace that was forming. It found a collaborator in our PM (Netanyahu) who essentially supported them and elevated them so they will fight with the PLO.
The idea was that it would prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. That was always a stupid idea... Notice that this was never "official" policy, this is my interpretation based on his actions.
Right now the specific blockade is fulled by three things:
* Rage - this is something I feel personally as everyone lost someone they know there. It's a small country... When children are murdered it tends to bring out blind rage and indifference towards the other side.
* Fear - Israel survived in a very hostile environment thanks to its ability to instill fear in its enemies. This showed a weak underbelly and Israelis are rightly concerned that anything less than complete destruction of the enemy will trigger an all out war.
* Hostages - There are civilians and children held hostage. The minister responsible for infrastructure specifically said that electricity and water won't be restored until the hostages are returned.
I personally think the bombings are absolutely horrible. I know quite a few Palestinians and my heart goes out to them. There's a mob mentality on both sides and we both lack in leadership. It took 5 days for the MODERATE head of the PLO to issue a very weak condemnation of the attack. On our side Netanyahu is as corrupt as they come. A demagogue of the worst kind. He promised to "flatten Gaza" which is stupid. I don't want that.
The Hamas has been a cancer on the Palestinian people. It murdered more Palestinians than Israel ever did. They believe in holy war and that Palestinian dead will be rewarded in the afterlife. The death of a Palestinian child is just PR for these guys. They are as terrible as they come. Unfortunately, this cancer masticated through the population. I have no easy answered but one thing I think pretty much every Israeli agrees on, they MUST be destroyed completely. Not the Palestinian people, the Hamas. My main concern is the leadership vacuum. The PLO isn't great either and won't want to collaborate with Israel after everything it did... Going back to something resembling the Oslo accord will be hard on all fronts.
[+] [-] incomingpain|2 years ago|reply
In fact, lets not blame the victims. Israel is defending themselves from aggressors and so I don't go far at all to consider their hasty response to the situation.
Next, "what palestinian territory?"
The british through blood, death and gore took that land. They formed Israel who has kept the land through blood, death and gore.
Did the palestianians take the land by force? Were they given land? Nope and Nope.
[+] [-] singularity2001|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Eggsellence|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] snird|2 years ago|reply
If there was a blockade - how so many weapons got in?
Guarding the borders is essential - we saw what they did in a few hours without them. Burning women alive. Decapitating babies. Raping teenagers then shooting them.
Without a guarded border - they'll do a second holocaust. That's not a speculation - that's a proven fact.
[+] [-] Simulacra|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] voisin|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewfelgate|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] snird|2 years ago|reply
Given they are chanting "Gas the Jews" and "Rape the Jews".
These are not protests - these are death marches.
[+] [-] aqme28|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sottol|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kiviuq|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theironhammer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hd4|2 years ago|reply
https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=2...
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] SettembreNero|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] g-b-r|2 years ago|reply
But as it's often the case it's easier to sweep the problems under the rug.
There was a demonstration in my city as well tonight, I'm still in shock.
But it's obvious that Europe is filled with antisemitic immigrants if you don't even ask them their beliefs before allowing them to stay.
[+] [-] matthewfelgate|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] matthewfelgate|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TazeTSchnitzel|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Xylakant|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] lamp987|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Eggsellence|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] johnyzee|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Clubber|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] funcDropShadow|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] OfSanguineFire|2 years ago|reply
It’s important to remember that after the Holocaust, European nations have a special responsibility to the Jewish people, and therefore they often err on the side of caution in preventing that people from being targets of potentially genocidal rhetoric.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Gibbon1|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] the_bookmaker|2 years ago|reply
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Houellebecq
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ric_Zemmourcandi
[+] [-] jruohonen|2 years ago|reply
EDIT: Over again, some Americans seem to think that this is about the "freedom of speech", whereas, in reality, it is about the freedom of assembly. That said, the situation seems pretty dire, with organizations classified as terrorists on the streets.
[+] [-] andrepd|2 years ago|reply
In sum, nothing to do with tfa.
[+] [-] hef19898|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] seryoiupfurds|2 years ago|reply
It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence.
Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted.
Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that every Israeli man, woman and child is a valid military target.
https://twitter.com/Cooper4SAE/status/1711214442875093236
And of course people legitimately holding a vigil for peace and supporting the human rights of Palestinian civilians are not guilty of hate, so long as they don't justify or downplay the crimes of Hamas. But many of the rallies were absolutely something else that has no place in a free or decent society.
I've seen plenty of Palestinians interviewed on TV who said "I'm disgusted by the attacks of Hamas. All I want is peace for our people." Everyone can support a statement like that, and if the organizers of these rallies cared they could have thrown out anyone who didn't.
[+] [-] eli_gottlieb|2 years ago|reply
Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right before or after Charlottesville?
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] DueDilligence|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] TacticalCoder|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] seryoiupfurds|2 years ago|reply