There are several comments from people who don't see the point of smart meters, or think that it's just about removing the need for meter readers.
There are two important things that can only be done via smart meters:
- Time-of-use tariffs, which are aligned to the cost of energy production. For example, Octopus Tracker (https://octopus.energy/smart/tracker/) has an energy price set daily based on the wholesale rate. This is (on average) cheaper for customers, and cheaper for the supplier (because they don't need to spend as much on hedging).
- Demand shifting, so customers can be paid or get discounts for reducing electricity usage when the load on the grid is high. The UK did this over last winter, and led to a peak energy reduction of 188MW (about 10% of the UK's coal power generation capacity). There's a report at https://octoenergy-production-media.s3.amazonaws.com/documen...
Both are ways of aligning the cost and environmental impact of energy with its price, and both become increasingly important as a higher percentage of energy is generated from variable renewable sources.
Interesting how "new and special" that seems in the UK with only daily prices? There are many providers offering hourly pricing in the Netherlands if you want to. I've seen some projects by enthusiasts to link those APIs to smart home systems and essentially use very cheap energy by timing their larger loads to the low-price moments. Especially on days with a lot of wind and solar energy.
You can also cut people off, or shunt them onto a pay-as-you-go tariff without installing another meter
It's also another point of failure.
I have a SMETS2 meter, and appreciate the time of day billing and better feed-in metering for my PV, but I'll not be at all surprised if this is hacked one day to cut millions of people off.
The big benefit is taxation: it allows for net-metering with the surplus sold at a low rate to be bought back at a much higher one. Obviously this was the plan all along...
You’ll find this happening with many things. Chrysler/dodge/Jeep vehicles built before 2016-2017 were using Sprint’s CDMA network for their telematics. When they shutdown the network it shutdown all cellular features in these vehicles. On the plus side, if you’re looking for a modern vehicle with no way to “phone home” take a look at those. ;)
That's good to know. I have been getting along fine by driving older cars, but obviously that won't last forever. I have always assumed that whenever the day comes that anything which still runs was built to phone home, I'd have to learn how to take the dash apart and remove the SIM or the antenna; but perhaps the endless grind of technological obsolescence will do the job for me. Wouldn't that be ironically nice?
It used AT&T 3G to communicate with Ford's MyFordMobile servers. Ford sunset MyFordMobile shortly after AT&T sunset 3G nationwide (US) two years ago. They had a service program which replaced the head units with more modern SYNC 4 ones that have 4G radios in them and work with Ford's FordPass service.
However, the dealer nearby us didn't know about the service and, because they didn't have the parts on hand, would have needed to hold that car for two weeks before doing any work.
So, just like that, we lost remote start (via app), location tracking and a bunch of actually useful features.
Just dealt with this in the US. And what did they replace it with? A "4G" meter. So, what, about 8 years worth of functionality before that tech is turned off and yet another few million pieces of e-waste are generated?
I'm dealing with this in a slightly different context right now - installing cellular remote access/VPN appliances in industrial manufacturing equipment. The equipment is required to have a lifespan of at least 10 years. Our adjacent equipment regularly lasts double that. Some of the equipment is built around castings and transformers that are 4-10x that age.
But they also want me to be able to dial into the equipment later, and won't give me WAN access. But no cellular vendor in their right mind will certify that the adjoining towers will have any particular frequency available for more than ~5 years, typically limiting it to a warranty of 3 years. This isn't the only pain point - what about the licensing server that the proprietary IDE for the PLC calls out to? The operating system on which said IDE is installed? Security protocols on the SCADA uplink? Replacement parts and critical spares? Good luck!
Unfortunately, a huge amount of industry is effectively subsidized by breakneck investment in consumer smartphones, automotive, and PC equipment. People don't care or don't understand that their choices on the showroom floor for the glossier, flashier, 'smarter' gear result in painful, expensive obsolescence just a couple years in the future. Manufacturers are only incentivized to sell new products and ignore old products, we need a massive shift in consumer preference if we want to avoid this.
Nobody cares about e-waste. If they did companies would stop producing new products at breakneck speed and consumers would stop buying them.
Instead they care about the optics, so you get the ocassional Apple video about how they replaced foo material with bar, while creating not servicable BS - oh, and things like paper straws.
Recycling is also mostly BS (things in the "recycle" bins just end in landfills abroad).
So this is just another drop in the huge ever increasing pile.
> and yet another few million pieces of e-waste are generated
That's money generated while the e-waste is not factored in. I know I'm stating the obvious. But it's a problem with being realistic, as you start seeing idiosyncrasies everywhere: I run my household on 4g as I can reach realistic speeds of 100Mb/s. Theoretically that goes up to 150Mb/s. A 4k stream (compressed without visual loss) requires 15Mb/s. So 10 people in a household could simultaneously watch 4k content.
Did I fail at math? Why does anyone need 5g? What for?
I'm not sure how modular they are, if they're just replacing a transmitter or something, I've seen some places transmitting only locally (zigbee or other) then a module on the street syncing upstream
But let's say even $500 (it's probably cheaper) for something that lasts 8 years is still much cheaper than sending people to get the readings
I think in reality it is a more efficient use of bandwidth using GSM. The alternative means your utility would have to maintain infrastructure and use up alternative bandwidth. In reality I think there should be regulation to keep some really basic form operating like 2G with GPRS or something on all networks.
One could mandate a modular design so that the communication pcb could be replaced, i.e. less e-waste. I wonder if smart meter manufacturers stay in business long enough for it to matter.
In France the electricity meter talks to the provider through the power line.
And my newly installed water meter reports water consumption through a custom radio module.
It sounds completely stupid to rely on 3G networks which are spotty or out of reach in many places. They’re probably more expensive too and take up some connections to the antenna.
Why would you refuse if you can get detailed information out of a smart meter about your usage? You can save a lot of power by knowing what is going on and if you have solar you definitely want a smart meter. You also don't need people coming by every so often to check how much electricity, water and gas you have used.
Here in Switzerland 80% of homes are supposed to have smart meters by 2027 but it looks like it will take longer, we are at 20%[1]. Once you have one the energy company has to give you access to (by law[2]) it (rs232, Ethernet what every the device offers) so you can read the data from it.
Why? What does this matter to you? It's not like these people are going to lose their electrical service due to this.
It's a problem for the utilities, and a cost that will be borne by all their rate payers, but I don't see any individualized cost or benefit here that is dependent on having or not having one of these meters.
The newer generation smart meters operate on their own network, so that its critical and separate infrastructure so this won't happen again in the future. Also you have to be pretty set on not getting a smart meter as it removes you from a lot of competitive energy deals, especially ones with a cheaper night rate.
It’s nice of them to ask. Typically it’s theirs for running their side of the contract with you, and oftentimes they’ve got a right to come service it.
Is there a reason they're using cell networks to communicate instead of just communicating over the power lines? These devices are meant to be in place for decades, so even a custom solution seems like it would be worth it.
Do home appliances and devices communicate with the power company via the smart meters? When I first heard about the smart meter there were fears that it would allow the power company to see which appliances you were using, and charge you a different rate. For instance, an electric vehicle.
No, the smart meters generally don't have this functionality. Other appliances can in theory hook into the market information from the supplier, but this isn't very common, and is generally under the user's control. The most common thing where users cede some control is home battery systems, where some providers give a discount or outright pay the users for control over using the batteries as grid storage ("virtual power plant"). But this is independent of the smart meter, a smart meter is mostly useful as someone with a home battery or EV because you can get acess to minute-by-minute energy pricing, whuch will generally save you money if you can shift your draw from the grid to when it's cheap.
(I will say for the average consumer at the moment a smart meter only gives you a mild convenience increase, and is likely not worth the trouble. I haven't got one installed myself, despite and now in part because my energy provider has been hounding me to install one, due to this push from the government. There's no reason to be an early adopter for this if the benefits aren't good, given how badly scuffed the first iteration was)
You want that if done with respect to privacy. Your electric car should not charge when rates are high. Your water heater should only turn on when the wind is blowing and there is a surplus of cheap power. (This requires extra hot water storage to make it through a day)
I consult in the industry, and certainly don't know everything, but everything that I've seen says that no, they don't. There are companies out there like Bidgely who claim they can do that to some extent, but they likely can only do that for really big loads unless your meters only powers a very few things.
They offer things like discounted rates for charging electric vehicles. And are talking about being able to tell people when they're using more power than usual that they forgot to turn the oven off or they're using their dishwasher during peak or whatever.
In the UK the meters connect directly to 2G/3G wireless networks? That would be stupid expensive to do here in the US (I know, we looked at it). In the US the meters connect to a proprietary spread spectrum network the utility sets up and maintains. The meters are capable of communicating with one another and dynamically update their routing table in order to get the message to a take-out point. Once at the take-out point a fiber connection takes it to the head-end system where the utility can communicate with it.
I'm surprised they're not keeping 2G GSM/GPRS for legacy applications. E.g. considering the life time of cars, for an eCall-like[1] solution having a network that'll be available for a few decades would make sense; or user-replacable modules.
For smart meters I had to prepare a network cable into our new main fuse box; but IIUC we won't be getting one of these, for now it's just a requirement.
The comms module is normally separate from , but attached to, the electricity meter. Not user replaceable though.
Slightly surprised (act, not really) that this is happening. Seems to have been dodged in Scotland & the North because cellular coverage there was poor enough they went with a 400mhz network instead.
Those meters aren't exactly cheap, if they need replacement it may well be a net-negative both for the environment and for the company that owns them. Meter readers would visit once every year and for something like a couple of minutes per address, and in many places the meters are outside of the buildings and can be read from the common spaces.
[+] [-] inigo|2 years ago|reply
There are two important things that can only be done via smart meters:
- Time-of-use tariffs, which are aligned to the cost of energy production. For example, Octopus Tracker (https://octopus.energy/smart/tracker/) has an energy price set daily based on the wholesale rate. This is (on average) cheaper for customers, and cheaper for the supplier (because they don't need to spend as much on hedging).
- Demand shifting, so customers can be paid or get discounts for reducing electricity usage when the load on the grid is high. The UK did this over last winter, and led to a peak energy reduction of 188MW (about 10% of the UK's coal power generation capacity). There's a report at https://octoenergy-production-media.s3.amazonaws.com/documen...
Both are ways of aligning the cost and environmental impact of energy with its price, and both become increasingly important as a higher percentage of energy is generated from variable renewable sources.
[+] [-] t0mas88|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oliwarner|2 years ago|reply
It's also another point of failure.
I have a SMETS2 meter, and appreciate the time of day billing and better feed-in metering for my PV, but I'll not be at all surprised if this is hacked one day to cut millions of people off.
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] windowsrookie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marssaxman|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunez|2 years ago|reply
It used AT&T 3G to communicate with Ford's MyFordMobile servers. Ford sunset MyFordMobile shortly after AT&T sunset 3G nationwide (US) two years ago. They had a service program which replaced the head units with more modern SYNC 4 ones that have 4G radios in them and work with Ford's FordPass service.
However, the dealer nearby us didn't know about the service and, because they didn't have the parts on hand, would have needed to hold that car for two weeks before doing any work.
So, just like that, we lost remote start (via app), location tracking and a bunch of actually useful features.
[+] [-] diyftw|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LeifCarrotson|2 years ago|reply
But they also want me to be able to dial into the equipment later, and won't give me WAN access. But no cellular vendor in their right mind will certify that the adjoining towers will have any particular frequency available for more than ~5 years, typically limiting it to a warranty of 3 years. This isn't the only pain point - what about the licensing server that the proprietary IDE for the PLC calls out to? The operating system on which said IDE is installed? Security protocols on the SCADA uplink? Replacement parts and critical spares? Good luck!
Unfortunately, a huge amount of industry is effectively subsidized by breakneck investment in consumer smartphones, automotive, and PC equipment. People don't care or don't understand that their choices on the showroom floor for the glossier, flashier, 'smarter' gear result in painful, expensive obsolescence just a couple years in the future. Manufacturers are only incentivized to sell new products and ignore old products, we need a massive shift in consumer preference if we want to avoid this.
[+] [-] coldtea|2 years ago|reply
Instead they care about the optics, so you get the ocassional Apple video about how they replaced foo material with bar, while creating not servicable BS - oh, and things like paper straws.
Recycling is also mostly BS (things in the "recycle" bins just end in landfills abroad).
So this is just another drop in the huge ever increasing pile.
[+] [-] Garvi|2 years ago|reply
That's money generated while the e-waste is not factored in. I know I'm stating the obvious. But it's a problem with being realistic, as you start seeing idiosyncrasies everywhere: I run my household on 4g as I can reach realistic speeds of 100Mb/s. Theoretically that goes up to 150Mb/s. A 4k stream (compressed without visual loss) requires 15Mb/s. So 10 people in a household could simultaneously watch 4k content.
Did I fail at math? Why does anyone need 5g? What for?
[+] [-] raverbashing|2 years ago|reply
But let's say even $500 (it's probably cheaper) for something that lasts 8 years is still much cheaper than sending people to get the readings
[+] [-] theonlybutlet|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jojobas|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] N19PEDL2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HPsquared|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] d--b|2 years ago|reply
And my newly installed water meter reports water consumption through a custom radio module.
It sounds completely stupid to rely on 3G networks which are spotty or out of reach in many places. They’re probably more expensive too and take up some connections to the antenna.
[+] [-] walthamstow|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sschueller|2 years ago|reply
Here in Switzerland 80% of homes are supposed to have smart meters by 2027 but it looks like it will take longer, we are at 20%[1]. Once you have one the energy company has to give you access to (by law[2]) it (rs232, Ethernet what every the device offers) so you can read the data from it.
[1] https://www.srf.ch/sendungen/kassensturz-espresso/kassenstur...
[2] https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/2008/226/de#art_8_a
[+] [-] hk1337|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sanderjd|2 years ago|reply
It's a problem for the utilities, and a cost that will be borne by all their rate payers, but I don't see any individualized cost or benefit here that is dependent on having or not having one of these meters.
[+] [-] crooksey|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Waterluvian|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikelward|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mmasu|2 years ago|reply
- “Tell HN: 3G sunsetting is remotely killing every Subaru Outback battery”
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37971038
[+] [-] tomohawk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ajay-p|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rcxdude|2 years ago|reply
(I will say for the average consumer at the moment a smart meter only gives you a mild convenience increase, and is likely not worth the trouble. I haven't got one installed myself, despite and now in part because my energy provider has been hounding me to install one, due to this push from the government. There's no reason to be an early adopter for this if the benefits aren't good, given how badly scuffed the first iteration was)
[+] [-] bluGill|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sauwan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikelward|2 years ago|reply
https://youtu.be/g-RQ0dOPTtc?t=474&si=r0zhDUr3OaMieHOz
They offer things like discounted rates for charging electric vehicles. And are talking about being able to tell people when they're using more power than usual that they forgot to turn the oven off or they're using their dishwasher during peak or whatever.
Edit: he mentioned Voltaware which seems to be this: https://voltaware.com/blog/2021-07-01/voltaware-octopus-insi...
[+] [-] taylodl|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] archi42|2 years ago|reply
For smart meters I had to prepare a network cable into our new main fuse box; but IIUC we won't be getting one of these, for now it's just a requirement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECall
[+] [-] the46a|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quickthrower2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andylynch|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] executesorder66|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xnorswap|2 years ago|reply
The pun doesn't really work, but when has that ever stopped headline writers?
[+] [-] specialist|2 years ago|reply
Once read an article critical of Google's smart city plans (Toronto?). Author pointed out that all this digital crap is useless after 10 years.
Time for another upgrade! Woot!
I'm pondering residential PV and battery. Rated life span of 30 years? Really? (I'll be dead by then, of course.)
[+] [-] RandomLensman|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] RecycledEle|2 years ago|reply
Now imagine there is a war in Europe and hackers on both sides want to shut off a whole town's electricity, one smart meter at a time...
[+] [-] ProllyInfamous|2 years ago|reply
My Kindle stopped its "FOREVER" 3G updates, too; which sucks e-ink display dick.
[+] [-] more_corn|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cabirum|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajsnigrutin|2 years ago|reply