I had the luck to visit this as a child, before all the tourist side of it was shut down. I remember taking the bus past the giant turbine hall. A few facts I can remember:
1. Carol Vorderman did a lot of the engineering calculations, before she started on Countdown (probably only relevant to the UK lot).
2. They couldn't run powerlines from the facility to the grid as it's an AONB so they had to run them underground at a cost of £1M per mile for however many miles.
Great place along with Sellafield and the wind turbines in Norfolk for a kid to visit.
If you are ever up in Scotland, you can still visit Cruachan - the sister power station at Loch Awe with a very similar design. I took my children there two months ago. They were as amazed as I hoped they would be! Visiting hours here: https://www.visitcruachan.co.uk/
Sounds like we did a similar set of school trips, I remember standing in a big loud hall on top of the Sellafield reactor, and down inside electric mountain by the big turbines. I was most sad that they don't do tours at the moment, I wanted to take my daughter there.
Not stated in the article: There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance.
Wherever that happens, it is probably financially a good idea to build one of these.
But that geography is really rather rare, so the rest of the world will probably have to use gas peaker plants (environment-killing) or battery storage (expensive).
> There are very few places in the world with two large lakes, separated by a lot of height and not much distance.
You only need one large lake (or a place which can be dammed to create one); the other one can be completely artificial, with no water inflow or outflow other than through the pumps/turbines. In fact, I think it might even be possible to make both reservoirs completely artificial, and fill them by pumping water from somewhere else. That makes the necessary geography a lot less rare; you only need the appropriate height difference, and the ability to create artificial reservoirs on both ends.
Keep an eye on Australia, Snowy 2 (whose costs are blowing out) [1], and battery uptake [2]. Based on cost decline curves of lithium scale utility storage, batteries will be cheaper by the time Snowy is commissioned. Battery manufacturing is ramping because every automaker is being forced to electrify, Tesla is preparing to build a second Megafactory factory for battery storage in China [3], and batteries can be installed anywhere.
Batteries can also provide grid support (frequency and voltage support when transmission or generators trip) and can be grid forming now; instead of having to follow the grid, they can drive grid health, including black start [4] when the grid is down. In South Australia, a new battery storage facility has recently come online and is in testing to enable AEMO, the grid operator, to turn down the requirement for ~70MW of constant fossil gas generation for grid services [5].
[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-much-how-can-a-2-2gw-wat... ("This is the fourth time Snowy 2.0’s cost has been reset – from $2 billion in 2017, to $3.8-$4.5 billion later that year, to $5.1 billion in 2019, to $5.9 billion in 2020, to $12 billion now (2023).")
[3] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-megafactory-constructi... ("Tesla’s estimated initial production capacity for the China-based Megapack factory is 10,000 units per year or about 40GWh.") [My note: This is equal to their existing capacity in Lathrop, California]
Pump-storage hydro is for load balancing as it can’t store anything on a grid scale and is very inefficient. Sadly, it could never replace gas — the U.K. alone would need thousands.
The Kemano generating station in British Columbia was built in the 1950s to supply power to an aluminum smelter. They hollowed out a mountain to drop a river through turbines. It’s an incredible marvel of engineering.
Massachusetts has a pumped storage station in the Berkshires, Bear Swamp. [1] As of a few years ago they had an underground visitor's center with a scale model and lots of info. Not sure whether it's open anymore though.
I think it was someone on the Volts podcast[1], either David Roberts or a guest, who made the point (I'm paraphrasing) that one of the most helpful things a regular person can do is start to think of solar arrays or windmills as beautiful; if building them isn't "climate but eyesore" but rather a "climate and beauty" proposition, they are much more likely to get built.
When I drive through Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, etc. I think windmills are quite beautiful. On the plains they are the only thing to look at and are quite inspiring.
Though not as technologically impressive, there are quite a few rather "simple" little hydroelectric dams tucked back in the Allegheny Mountains of the eastern USA. They are a marvel to see, worth seeking out if you are driving anywhere near them.
Cheoah Dam is on the infamous Tail of the Dragon in TN, and there's a spot where you can pull over and see the whole thing below, it's such an inspiring thing.
Czech Republic also has a pumped-storage plant in Dlouhé stráně[0]. It's also in a protected landscape and in my opinion looks amazing [1], especially when you descend from Praděd. It's one of the only large scale industrial projects in Czech Republic that is on a world-class level.
> So, after all those television-watching Britons go to bed, Dinorwig’s generators are run backwards.
> It’s a remarkably efficient process, with about 75% of the energy available for reuse.
Not an (hardware) engineer, so wondering: are turbines typically efficient running both ways? Or would a turbine in this scenario have tradeoffs compared to turbines that are designed for running in one direction only?
The best I can come up with from the comfort of my armchair is that straight gears are typically equally efficient in either rotating direction, but often gears with angled teeth are used when one rotating direction is primary.
The Dinorwig turbines are (like most hydro plants) Francis turbines. The blade still have an angle. Like a PC case fan, the angle is the same direction whether or not the turbine is "braking"
or "pumping". But there very likely are tradeoffs in the turbine design to keep both functions relatively efficient.
There are also what are called ternary sets, which are the generator turbine, the torque converter (a massive clutch) and a pump. A good diagram in here: https://voith.com/corp-en/11_06_Broschuere-Pumped-storage_ei.... These are used at another Welsh pumped storage station: Ffestiniog.
Helical gears (the ones with angled teeth) are used not because one direction is better than the other, but because they have a larger contact area and allow larger forces for a given tooth size (module) and lower vibration because multiple teeth mesh at any time rather than one-by-one. The angle can go either way, and, indeed, can go both ways on one gear (a herringbone gear) to nullify the axial loading.
Incredible place, while at Bangor university I did my dissertation on electric mountain and now spend my weekend hiking round Snowdonia. Lovely part of the world
Dachande663|2 years ago
1. Carol Vorderman did a lot of the engineering calculations, before she started on Countdown (probably only relevant to the UK lot).
2. They couldn't run powerlines from the facility to the grid as it's an AONB so they had to run them underground at a cost of £1M per mile for however many miles.
Great place along with Sellafield and the wind turbines in Norfolk for a kid to visit.
squigg|2 years ago
If you are a Harry Potter fan, it's not far from Loch Awe to the famous viaduct at Glenfinnan as well. Details here: https://www.nts.org.uk/visit/places/glenfinnan-monument/high...
LastTrain|2 years ago
Neil44|2 years ago
kraftman|2 years ago
londons_explore|2 years ago
Wherever that happens, it is probably financially a good idea to build one of these.
But that geography is really rather rare, so the rest of the world will probably have to use gas peaker plants (environment-killing) or battery storage (expensive).
cesarb|2 years ago
You only need one large lake (or a place which can be dammed to create one); the other one can be completely artificial, with no water inflow or outflow other than through the pumps/turbines. In fact, I think it might even be possible to make both reservoirs completely artificial, and fill them by pumping water from somewhere else. That makes the necessary geography a lot less rare; you only need the appropriate height difference, and the ability to create artificial reservoirs on both ends.
toomuchtodo|2 years ago
Batteries can also provide grid support (frequency and voltage support when transmission or generators trip) and can be grid forming now; instead of having to follow the grid, they can drive grid health, including black start [4] when the grid is down. In South Australia, a new battery storage facility has recently come online and is in testing to enable AEMO, the grid operator, to turn down the requirement for ~70MW of constant fossil gas generation for grid services [5].
[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-much-how-can-a-2-2gw-wat... ("This is the fourth time Snowy 2.0’s cost has been reset – from $2 billion in 2017, to $3.8-$4.5 billion later that year, to $5.1 billion in 2019, to $5.9 billion in 2020, to $12 billion now (2023).")
[2] https://www.energy-storage.news/global-bess-deployments-to-e... ("Global BESS deployments to exceed 400GWh annually by 2030, says Rystad Energy")
[3] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-megafactory-constructi... ("Tesla’s estimated initial production capacity for the China-based Megapack factory is 10,000 units per year or about 40GWh.") [My note: This is equal to their existing capacity in Lathrop, California]
[4] https://www.nrel.gov/grid/black-start.html
[5] https://opennem.org.au/facilities/sa1/?selected=TIB&tech=bat... ("Torrens Island BESS")
eppp|2 years ago
There is water at the base of a lot of mountains, just knock the top off and build a lake.
bryanlarsen|2 years ago
They only started with a single lake and a moderate amount of elevation.
FFP999|2 years ago
(Update: for those who are downvoting, it was a serious question.)
sambeau|2 years ago
aaron695|2 years ago
[deleted]
ttul|2 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemano_Generating_Station
colanderman|2 years ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Swamp_Hydroelectric_Power...
Amorymeltzer|2 years ago
1: https://www.volts.wtf
Mistletoe|2 years ago
They look like this: https://www.istockphoto.com/photos/oklahoma-wind-energy-turb...
uptownJimmy|2 years ago
Cheoah Dam is on the infamous Tail of the Dragon in TN, and there's a spot where you can pull over and see the whole thing below, it's such an inspiring thing.
frantathefranta|2 years ago
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dlouh%C3%A9_str%C3%A1n%C4%9B_H...
[1]http://turystyka.studentnews.pl/img/wo/3/58/Elektrownia-wodn...
uticus|2 years ago
> It’s a remarkably efficient process, with about 75% of the energy available for reuse.
Not an (hardware) engineer, so wondering: are turbines typically efficient running both ways? Or would a turbine in this scenario have tradeoffs compared to turbines that are designed for running in one direction only?
The best I can come up with from the comfort of my armchair is that straight gears are typically equally efficient in either rotating direction, but often gears with angled teeth are used when one rotating direction is primary.
adhesive_wombat|2 years ago
There are also what are called ternary sets, which are the generator turbine, the torque converter (a massive clutch) and a pump. A good diagram in here: https://voith.com/corp-en/11_06_Broschuere-Pumped-storage_ei.... These are used at another Welsh pumped storage station: Ffestiniog.
Helical gears (the ones with angled teeth) are used not because one direction is better than the other, but because they have a larger contact area and allow larger forces for a given tooth size (module) and lower vibration because multiple teeth mesh at any time rather than one-by-one. The angle can go either way, and, indeed, can go both ways on one gear (a herringbone gear) to nullify the axial loading.
bee_rider|2 years ago
mindracer|2 years ago
BoxOfRain|2 years ago
I really regret not learning Welsh while I lived in such a Welsh-speaking part of Wales.
xkekjrktllss|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]