I plan on owning an EV one day. But right now, they're not building the car I (and apparently a lot of other people) want at a price they're willing to pay.
I'm not interested in owning a science experiment. I want something that has real buttons so I can use my muscle memory to push them without taking my eyes off the road. I don't want something that beeps at me all the damned time (looking at you, Toyota/Lexus/Subaru). I want something with decent range (300 miles/500km) - I don't mind stopping at the 4-5 hour mark to recharge - I need to recharge too at that point. I don't want an all-glass roof - I live in the South and it gets hot here. I want comfortable seats. After trade-in and cash-down, I don't want a payment much over $600. I don't mind spending $1200 to install a charger at home - it's a one-time purchase that I will be able to use over several vehicles and adds value to the house.
I'm sure I sound like a cranky old man (because I am). But there's a reason why car design has converged over the last century to the control layout we have today. It's because it works.
I'm, like, the world's biggest car enthusiast and I love EVs. For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars. They're smooth, quiet, and powerful and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank.
The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it.
I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
I would love to own an EV, but even as a well-to-do middle income, they're just.so.expensive right now!
And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-(
I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner.
They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
> ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities.
> an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable.
Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit.
$30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability.
For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
> For a daily driver, if you have a garage or a place to plug in daily, EVs are just a better experience than gas cars.
The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case.
The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips.
We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
I'm absolutely happy with my plug-in Prius. I have a short commute, and it gets me to work and back on a single charge. Every now and then when I need to go for a longer drive, I'll switch to gas which has a range of hundreds of miles. I charge it at home and I fill the tank about three or four times a year.
The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius.
If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
The EV market is in a strange spot. Tesla knows how to make an amazing battery electric powertrain & software experience but struggles to make the rest of the car. (I rented a low-end ICE Mazda and the interior build quality was sooo much better than our Tesla. A few generations beyond.)
Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
I still marvel that my pretty basic Kia Niro EV provides the quiet, smoothness and smooth power delivery that Rolls Royce has been trying to get out of their v12s for decades. And it gets it without even trying, it's just how electric motors are.
My read is that the sweet spot price for EV mass adoption is $15k with about just enough range to manage. Like a 200 mile range with extremely fast charging. A smaller battery that can charge in like 5-7 mins. The car can be a bit smaller, 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds should be good enough.
What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc.
An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
I think the driving feel of toyota hybrid is actually closest to ev of ice cars, because of the smooth and gearless starting and stopping it does with its integrated electric motor. The change to ice on higher speed is also usually seamless. This being true in normal family car speeds. It lacks the acceleration of course.
Conventional petrol/diesel cars are way better for most people. I don't want an insane 0-60 time, my corolla is fast enough. More importantly, ICE cars have attained an incredible level of reliability. Honestly this type of robustness is rarely found in any other consumer class equipment.
On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up.
Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.
> I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars.
>than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today
I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes.
These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
The better tech always wins in the end. It's a no-brainer.
The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW.
I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars.
There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber.
American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all.
My RAV4 Prime gets 50 miles to the charge and has a gas tank for everything else.
FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios.
Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
Good luck finding a Toyota hybrid, it's shocking just how little inventory they have. I absolutely love my plug in hybrid - but they are just so hard to actually purchase right now, and the economics don't make sense when you have dealers selling them at a huge markup.
The economy market currently appears to favor EVs for comfort, depending on whether weather is a factor where you live. This isn't saying very much, and an incorrect consumer focus is possibly the reason these manufacturers are having the difficulties they are.
That is your perspective driving like shit. A lot of people I know still uses the manual gearbox to give them the "car feel". Some dknt even want power steering because they like to wrestle with the car during turn.
I'd love an EV but I've got 3 kids in car seats. As far as I know, only Rivian is making something that would work for our needs and I'm not paying $85,000 for it.
I would by a car like the ID.3 tomorrow, but they won't sell it in the US.
The US market is so weird. Mostly dominated by very expensive, very large vehicles. Yet, it seems like the kind of consumer who might want a EV is also the kind of consumer who would want a smaller vehicle, which would be far more practical. I guess the Bolt (in limbo, with a new design maybe coming?) and Nissan Leaf are pretty much it right now.
I think automakers just assume "US consumers want big, expensive cars" and copy/pasted that over to their EV offerings, while the big untapped EV market is probably for more practical people who would gladly drive a smaller, more efficient, cheaper vehicle.
Elon stated that Cybertruck will weigh about 7000 lbs. That's 3.5 tons.
That's the same mass as an F-350 DRW (dual rear wheel) loaded with options.
Seriously heavy. I'm not anti heavy vehicles or anything; I have a 3/4 ton truck myself (~5200 lbs.) I just think it's eye opening just how heavy these EVs are.
I absolutely loved my 2019 Chevy Bolt, but the wife did not. It's a great commuter but didn't feel 'cushy'. If they can deliver comfort in a small EV they'll be onto something.
Those are nice, but I think it's a shame new EV production has to coincide with an exterior 'facelift' to match the moment.
Why do most new EVs over the last 10 years need to look like EVs? At least Tesla and a few other brands are slooowly dialing that down finally.
Volkswagen e-Up and its sisters(Skoda Citigo and Seat Mii) exist? It's a cheap car with Volkswagen build quality, 36kWh battery that easily gives you 150 miles range, no touch screen nonsense, fits a baby seat no problem, Costco shopping, it just works day in and day out. It's literally my favourite car I ever owned, and I used to have a Mercedes-AMG at one point. It's just so usable and costs nothing to run(charging at home it's literally less than a pound for 60 miles, I think my old petrol car would use a pound worth of petrol just to start up).
(1) legacy car manufacturers don't know how to make cars. They forgot how to make cars decades ago. All components are manufactured by someone else, they slap their label on it. If you don't know how to make cars, it is nearly impossible to make new kind of cars.
(2) If you don't know how to do something, you can spend some money and learn. Legacy car manufacturers had $250 billion profits, but didn't spend any money on building this capability. Meanwhile, Tesla made electric cars, built supercharger network, built gigafactories, expanded these capabilities globally.
(3) Dealers hate EVs. Even if legacy manufacturers make EVs, dealers won't sell them. I've been going to dealerships every year for more than five years, dealers treat you like shit if you wanna buy an EV. Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers.
(4) Meanwhile, China has figured out how to do EVs at scale, iterating and improving batteries and EVs. Eventually, legacy car manufacturers will go bust (after taking tens of billions in bailouts). We'll import cars from China either directly or indirectly. If there are too many tariffs, China is going to build assembly plants in Mexico or Canada, sell them very competitively in US. VW sells ID.3 for 16K in China, the competition is intense![2]
I don't think an EV could work for me personally, as there's almost no public charging stations here. And I can't park at home. So I'd have to go somewhere just for charging and hang around while it's doing it.
In fact I don't have a car at all. But if I got one it wouldn't be an EV until nearly every parking space has a charger so I can combine a trip with a charge.
But really I'm so happy I don't have a car anymore. There's so many drawbacks.
- Huge cost and high depreciation
- Maintenance costs and time sink
- Tyre swap in winter
- insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
- Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
- Finding parking and paying for that
- Worry about break-in, damage and theft
- Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
- Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I don't really see how all these drawbacks compensate for slightly more easily getting from A to B. Public transport here is amazing and costs 20€ unlimited per month. If I'm in a hurry a taxi will cost a tenner or so. And as I work mostly from home most of trips involve going out and drinking so I wouldn't be able to drive anyway :P
And I see more and more of my friends going car free too. I think that's more of a reason for dropping car sales now.
Uh ive driven over 300k miles in evs in the last 10 years. Goodbye gas stations, what are those. Driven many 300+ mile trips, several cross country. Whats not working?? Whenever i see articles like this i just think the writers are ev haters or far right fanatics who have never tried an ev before. Ev's are cheaper than gas cars now, even their msrp and we're not even talking about gas savings yet. Farrrrr cheaper to drive an ev.
The thing is, while there's a lot of crap EVs at inflated prices that nobody wants to buy, good EVs are back ordered. Chevy dealers do everything they can to avoid selling Bolts but they're still months away from having stock.
For most people, I suspect a plugin hybrid will be the right solution/tradeoff until the technology evolves, or charging infrastructure becomes more prevalent. Being able to do most of your local / day to day driving on electric, but still having access to an ICE and gas refueling for longer range trips, seems like a winning combination for now.
If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
- I need a truck with large towing capacity and no EV but a Semi currently comes close.
Reasons why I don't want to buy an EV:
- I live in an apartment with street parking. The nearest public chargers are 15 minutes away. Charging would be a time consuming hassle.
- Any EV truck is at least 5x more expensive than the average used truck.
- I don't want to have to plan out every single trip around where the next charger is. I'd like to go hiking in the Catskills and not have to create an Excel spreadsheet to figure out where I'll need to stop for power and how long.
- Unless you can use a Tesla charger, public chargers suck. They often are broken, do not provide nearly enough power, have difficult payment systems, etc. Many EV drivers just don't get how shitty non-Tesla chargers are.
- I like driving standard transmission. I could technically hire someone to retrofit an EV with a manual trans. I can't imagine how expensive that would be.
Reasons why I wish I could buy an EV:
- Larger trucks are insanely fuel inefficient. I want to pay less for fuel and have longer range.
- ICE maintenance is a huge pain. I don't want to deal with all the broken stuff and constantly going in for minor to major repairs and maintenance.
- I'd like to help people with asthma and the environment.
I loved my 2020 Nissan Leaf S+ so much I bought a second one. Now they're going to stop making them, so they can focus on the much larger and more expensive Nissan Ariya. It seems like many other companies are trying to SUV-ize their EV lineup to flush more cash from customers, but there are only so many people who are willing to pay for those monstrosities. People want an affordable, utilitarian car that doesn't cost an arm and a leg and, aside from initial promises, automakers have neglected the market.
No one wants to buy the 80-100k stuff they want you to buy. You need to have reasonable EVs priced in the 20-40k range. People keep buying up all the bolts and for some reason Chevy won’t make enough of them. The f-150 lightning was back ordered before they raised the prices 1.5 years ago from a relatively affordable 42k to whatever it is now (closer to 60k for the base model I think).
The auto industry went on a huge too much car per car kick. I was at a Jeep dealership today. All Jeep Wranglers in stock were 4-door. Prices started at $70K and went to over $100K. And that's before the after-sale charges. These aren't even the electric model. This is 2x-3x over inflation since the $25K Jeep Wrangler of 2007.
I bought a car recently (June), and ended up not getting an electric car. Why? My criteria are pretty simple:
- Must seat 6 (I have 4 kids, I'm not going to start doing 2 trips)
- Must be below 100k CAD (y'know, budget. I'm still way stretching at this price point.)
I could not find a single EV that fit these 2 criteria. Tesla had a 7-seater option on the Y, which I did actually order, but then they canceled my order as they stopped selling the 7-seater in Canada.
In the end, I had to fall back to the closest thing, a PHEV. Even there, the choices are pretty much only the Mitshubishi Outlander or the Chrysler Pacifica, and I'm not a SUV guy so I got the Pacifica.
Manufacturers need to stop competing on the same exact car (boring 5-seater mini-SUVs) and start offering some variety, maybe they'll see more sales.
Non-Chinese automakers better prepare themselves, because whoever comes out on top from that struggle will take over the market just like it happened with solar panels.
I love my plug-in hybrid. (Honda Clarity) 90% of the time I use it on electric and I never have range anxiety. When we wanted to do a cross country road trip it worked and now that we are settled I don't buy gas and don't feel bad about driving. I've owned both a Tesla and a Nissan Leaf and I probably wouldn't buy another pure EV unless it was as a second car.
Note: This sweet spot seems to have disappeared from the market as I don't believe any plug-in hybrids available in the US today match the EV range of the Clarity.
Tesla may be facing headwinds, but reality is these legacy car maker's products are just not competitive with Tesla. Many are going to die in the transition, as they can't make a great all integrated product. They just don't know how, and with UAW strikes, it's not like they're going to learn how to and gain better economics in the future either.
These companies are walking dead. And like IBM, they probably can be walking dead for a good while.
Listening to US automakers talking about not being able to sell electric vehicles all sounds like "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!". Seriously; it's clear not enough people want to buy the only thing they're selling (expensive electric SUVs and big trucks), but they're unwilling to try selling anything else.
To what extent is this article impartial? Besides the inclusion of carefully selected quotes from executives, the remaining references predominantly originate from articles published on the same website and authored by a specific subset of writers. Is this viewpoint commonly shared within the industry?
Information permeation through our bubbles is really phased. Consider the elapsed time between 'the first to know' and 'the last to know' and how that has attenuated. Comments on this thread are a nice illustration of where we are.
It's interesting that there is no mention in the article about most auto makers adopting the Tesla charging standard and ceding profit on charging to Tesla. That pattern will continue as Tesla's all-out technology and investment sprint continues to widen the gap.
In my view, by the time the legacy auto makers get a profitable, competitively priced BEV into the showrooms, Tesla (and the Chinese companies) will have their low-cost factory running in Mexico, lowering the bar on them again. And then Full Self Driving will go wide as the final nail in the coffin.
I'm not a short-seller because people like short sellers about the same as undertakers, but if I were, I'd be betting that the legacy autos are declaring bankruptcy again in less than 5 years.
[+] [-] chiph|2 years ago|reply
I'm not interested in owning a science experiment. I want something that has real buttons so I can use my muscle memory to push them without taking my eyes off the road. I don't want something that beeps at me all the damned time (looking at you, Toyota/Lexus/Subaru). I want something with decent range (300 miles/500km) - I don't mind stopping at the 4-5 hour mark to recharge - I need to recharge too at that point. I don't want an all-glass roof - I live in the South and it gets hot here. I want comfortable seats. After trade-in and cash-down, I don't want a payment much over $600. I don't mind spending $1200 to install a charger at home - it's a one-time purchase that I will be able to use over several vehicles and adds value to the house.
I'm sure I sound like a cranky old man (because I am). But there's a reason why car design has converged over the last century to the control layout we have today. It's because it works.
https://www.hagerty.com/media/car-profiles/driving-a-model-t...
[+] [-] avalys|2 years ago|reply
An electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
It's a shame EVs are not catching on, because they're really just better cars. I'd definitely pay a premium for an EV (and I have). I suppose the problem is that, if you're not a car enthusiast, a $30k Toyota hybrid is still a better deal, even if it drives like shit.
[+] [-] gmac|2 years ago|reply
Most of my miles are done on long journeys. I live in a terraced house and can’t charge at home. UK charging infrastructure seems pretty underdeveloped so far. My 2018 petrol car does 600 miles on a tank.
The upshot of all that is that an EV would give me half the range at twice the cost, and a headache every time I needed to charge it.
I really want EVs to get better, and I’m sure they will. But for now, they’re hugely inferior for me.
[+] [-] NikolaNovak|2 years ago|reply
And they have to be a second car for many north American folks (due to distances and ranges involved),which unfortunately makes it even more of a luxury :-(
I'd be curious to hear more about handling part though. Outside of Tesla (which I've never driven ; it's a personal thing but as soon as I see the "controls", I jump out) , the EVs I've tried (volt,ioniq, leaf) had great acceleration, but not great handling (turning etc). Tires, suspension and in particular extra weight all seemed to work against me in the corner.
They were all very comfortable, and powerful, but I would not have called any of them well handling.
[+] [-] zhdc1|2 years ago|reply
> ...and you never have to worry about stopping at a gas station - the car is ready to go every morning and you don't even have to think about it!
If you have a home charging station. This immediately excludes a - very - large number of people in the EU and metropolitan US who live in multifamily housing or older towns and cities.
> an electric drivetrain is a way better driving experience than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today, even premium brands like Mercedes and BMW. These are nasty, underpowered, vibrating pieces of shit with no torque and no power unless you run them at thousands of RPM, where they're loud and buzzy. Just complete fucking garbage.
What are we comparing? A Tesla Model 3 against most non-premium cars? Of course. An MG5 EV/Roewe EI5 against a BMW B48 or a Honda K20C1? Questionable.
Let's not forget that there are plenty of fuel efficient 6 cylinder mild hybrid platforms that, quite frankly, compete very well with premium EVs. Range anxiety aside, are they necessarily better? Again, questionable, but the overall package that comes with an M340d or an A6 55TFSI is better than the equivalent Model 3/S (or even, imo, any of BMW or Audi's EVs).
[+] [-] lm28469|2 years ago|reply
I'd buy a used $5k piece of shit over that any day. I'm as interested in cars as I am in hammers, as long as it gets me from a to b I absolutely don't give a shit.
$30k is like 5+ years of saving for a lot of people, even in the west. That's a lot of money for a liability.
For the price of a modern EV you can buy a flat in many region of the developed world too...
[+] [-] michpoch|2 years ago|reply
The core issue is that it's not the case for most people. If you can afford an EV, have a house with a garage where you can plug in the car - you're basically a corner case.
The reality for most people in Europe: car should cost 5 - 10k EUR (used), 10 - 20k new, it'll be parked on the street and need to be practical both for driving in a city as well as for longer trips.
We're still pretty far away from any of these goals. I imagine something like Skoda Enyaq, with 800 km - 1000 km of range, for 25 - 30'000 EUR max, with tax included (an equivalent to VW Golf Variant).
[+] [-] loudmax|2 years ago|reply
The car definitely drives differently in the two modes. It's no Tesla, but electric acceleration is much more responsive and faster than a traditional sedan, like a Corolla or a Civic. Driving in gas mode feels like driving a Prius.
If it fits your needs, I recommend looking into plug-in hybrids. But I'm no car enthusiast. My car is functional, not a status symbol.
[+] [-] toddmorey|2 years ago|reply
Meanwhile traditional auto makes can't seem to create compelling BEVs. The initial offerings from Toyota & Mazda have been terrible. I am surprised that the Ford Lightning hasn't done better. It's a great truck, that can't seem to compete with itself (cheaper gasoline versions). I'll be curious to see how the electric Escalade does. That thing looks incredible and I think is the right brand / market for a premium SUV.
[+] [-] city41|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmbyrro|2 years ago|reply
Most car buyers have a different mindset. Your rationale doesn't resonate with them.
A good amount of them actually enjoy what you described as "garbage". They don't hear "loud" noises, they hear a pleasant sound.
[+] [-] deepGem|2 years ago|reply
What this implies is that there needs a greater density of charging stations - which Tesla is anyway working on this. So in a Tesla super charger, if I can charge to 80% in 5 mins and get 150-160 mile range am good. Even if I don’t have a garage at home, this should work with appropriate alerting, routing etc.
An electric car for the non-enthusiasts, for those who just need a car to get stuff done.
[+] [-] arka2147483647|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gambiting|2 years ago|reply
I don't know why people are saying this though - they are catching on massively.
[+] [-] k8sToGo|2 years ago|reply
Downside is much increased tire wear for already much more expensive tires.
[+] [-] perryizgr8|2 years ago|reply
On top of that, I can (and have) jump into my car with a close to empty fuel tank, and go on a 1000 km journey without worrying about how and when I'll fill up. EVs don't have that, because even if your route has a lot of public chargers, it will still take you way longer to charge up.
Edit: I'm not saying EVs are unreliable, just that I'm not gonna pay cash to be part of that experiment. I'll get in once the technology has proven itself.
[+] [-] delfinom|2 years ago|reply
Modern Hybrids (not Priuses) drive like normal cars.
>than the miserable turbocharged 4-cylinder engines that everyone has been forced to use for fuel economy reasons today
I have a 181HP Honda Civic with said turbo 4cyl, it's not noisy and is quieter than my original v6 Accord. A little less power (30HP less) but the fuel economy is insane, I average 40 MPG sitting in NYC traffic for 2 hours. 35 MPG on my normal commutes.
These small engines are fine, the problem is what automakers do with them.
[+] [-] nikster|2 years ago|reply
The problem with resistance of the existing auto industry is that if everyone buys EVs the big American carmakers go out of business. GM, Ford, etc have nothing, no technology to compete, their EVs are still crap, they are unable to catch up. So are many Japanese carmakers also BTW.
I was recently in Hong Kong - a good 50% of cars there are EVs thanks to tax breaks - no taxes on EVs while other cars are heavily taxed, so that makes even high end EVs cheaper than mid range gas cars. I think I tried every single model EV using Uber, Mercedes, BMW, and Tesla primarily, they're all really great EVs, great cars, great range, great comfort, obviously insane acceleration. Just better cars.
There's also a range of Chinese EVs coming up - didn't test I guess they are too rare to show up on Uber.
American carmakers then spread all sorts of FUD about EVs such that my facebook feed is full of people who really believe EVs are worse for the environment than their exploding mineral oil machines. They hold back all development through propaganda, lawmaking, political influence, anything and everything they can do - because they can easily act like a mafia. They can't easily compete with the good EVs of the world. Or at all.
Situation report complete.
[+] [-] subpixel|2 years ago|reply
FFS if it got 100 miles to the charge it would be the perfect EV for most daily driver scenarios.
Also, the number of people who can’t charge in their own yard or driveway or garage is significant. I would never, ever drive am EV without my own plug at home.
[+] [-] roland35|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akira2501|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeo123|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scruple|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] textbookrental|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kjkjadksj|2 years ago|reply
We are in the era where the super cars I grew up with are handily lapped by a honda accord. Driving has never been better than right now.
[+] [-] MrMan|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] spacecadet|2 years ago|reply
But these people clinging to ICE because... so many bad reasons. Basically manufacturing consent.
[+] [-] aaronbrethorst|2 years ago|reply
I want an adorable, tiny EV Mitsubishi Delica for $13,000 new. https://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/en/newsrelease/2023/detail...
Or this adorable, tiny EV SUV for about the same price: https://www.thedrive.com/news/gms-tiny-electric-pickup-is-an...
[+] [-] JeremyNT|2 years ago|reply
The US market is so weird. Mostly dominated by very expensive, very large vehicles. Yet, it seems like the kind of consumer who might want a EV is also the kind of consumer who would want a smaller vehicle, which would be far more practical. I guess the Bolt (in limbo, with a new design maybe coming?) and Nissan Leaf are pretty much it right now.
I think automakers just assume "US consumers want big, expensive cars" and copy/pasted that over to their EV offerings, while the big untapped EV market is probably for more practical people who would gladly drive a smaller, more efficient, cheaper vehicle.
[+] [-] topspin|2 years ago|reply
Elon stated that Cybertruck will weigh about 7000 lbs. That's 3.5 tons.
That's the same mass as an F-350 DRW (dual rear wheel) loaded with options.
Seriously heavy. I'm not anti heavy vehicles or anything; I have a 3/4 ton truck myself (~5200 lbs.) I just think it's eye opening just how heavy these EVs are.
[+] [-] 01100011|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ugh123|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gambiting|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thelastgallon|2 years ago|reply
(1) legacy car manufacturers don't know how to make cars. They forgot how to make cars decades ago. All components are manufactured by someone else, they slap their label on it. If you don't know how to make cars, it is nearly impossible to make new kind of cars.
(2) If you don't know how to do something, you can spend some money and learn. Legacy car manufacturers had $250 billion profits, but didn't spend any money on building this capability. Meanwhile, Tesla made electric cars, built supercharger network, built gigafactories, expanded these capabilities globally.
(3) Dealers hate EVs. Even if legacy manufacturers make EVs, dealers won't sell them. I've been going to dealerships every year for more than five years, dealers treat you like shit if you wanna buy an EV. Which is understandable, ICE cars have 2000+ moving parts and tons of repairs, EVs have 20 moving parts and zero repairs. They aren't going to make much money replacing windshield wipers.
(4) Meanwhile, China has figured out how to do EVs at scale, iterating and improving batteries and EVs. Eventually, legacy car manufacturers will go bust (after taking tens of billions in bailouts). We'll import cars from China either directly or indirectly. If there are too many tariffs, China is going to build assembly plants in Mexico or Canada, sell them very competitively in US. VW sells ID.3 for 16K in China, the competition is intense![2]
[1]https://www.epi.org/blog/uaw-automakers-negotiations/
[2] https://insideevs.com/news/675842/volkswagen-slashes-id3-pri...
[+] [-] wkat4242|2 years ago|reply
In fact I don't have a car at all. But if I got one it wouldn't be an EV until nearly every parking space has a charger so I can combine a trip with a charge.
But really I'm so happy I don't have a car anymore. There's so many drawbacks.
- Huge cost and high depreciation
- Maintenance costs and time sink
- Tyre swap in winter
- insurance and worry about losing no claim bonus
- Road tax and chance of fines if you miss a speed sign
- Finding parking and paying for that
- Worry about break-in, damage and theft
- Not being able to do anything productive while driving (on the train I can do so just fine)
- Always having to return to where you parked it (a much overlooked convenience of public transport)
I don't really see how all these drawbacks compensate for slightly more easily getting from A to B. Public transport here is amazing and costs 20€ unlimited per month. If I'm in a hurry a taxi will cost a tenner or so. And as I work mostly from home most of trips involve going out and drinking so I wouldn't be able to drive anyway :P
And I see more and more of my friends going car free too. I think that's more of a reason for dropping car sales now.
[+] [-] yobid20|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LarsAlereon|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] object-a|2 years ago|reply
If we care about reducing carbon, we'll probably get more milage out of more walkable cities, expanded public transit, and e-bikes/scooters for local trips.
[+] [-] throwawaaarrgh|2 years ago|reply
- I need a truck with large towing capacity and no EV but a Semi currently comes close.
Reasons why I don't want to buy an EV:
- I live in an apartment with street parking. The nearest public chargers are 15 minutes away. Charging would be a time consuming hassle.
- Any EV truck is at least 5x more expensive than the average used truck.
- I don't want to have to plan out every single trip around where the next charger is. I'd like to go hiking in the Catskills and not have to create an Excel spreadsheet to figure out where I'll need to stop for power and how long.
- Unless you can use a Tesla charger, public chargers suck. They often are broken, do not provide nearly enough power, have difficult payment systems, etc. Many EV drivers just don't get how shitty non-Tesla chargers are.
- I like driving standard transmission. I could technically hire someone to retrofit an EV with a manual trans. I can't imagine how expensive that would be.
Reasons why I wish I could buy an EV:
- Larger trucks are insanely fuel inefficient. I want to pay less for fuel and have longer range.
- ICE maintenance is a huge pain. I don't want to deal with all the broken stuff and constantly going in for minor to major repairs and maintenance.
- I'd like to help people with asthma and the environment.
[+] [-] vertnerd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] huytersd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nusl|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emilecantin|2 years ago|reply
- Must seat 6 (I have 4 kids, I'm not going to start doing 2 trips)
- Must be below 100k CAD (y'know, budget. I'm still way stretching at this price point.)
I could not find a single EV that fit these 2 criteria. Tesla had a 7-seater option on the Y, which I did actually order, but then they canceled my order as they stopped selling the 7-seater in Canada.
In the end, I had to fall back to the closest thing, a PHEV. Even there, the choices are pretty much only the Mitshubishi Outlander or the Chrysler Pacifica, and I'm not a SUV guy so I got the Pacifica.
Manufacturers need to stop competing on the same exact car (boring 5-seater mini-SUVs) and start offering some variety, maybe they'll see more sales.
[+] [-] Tade0|2 years ago|reply
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/08/08/ch...
Non-Chinese automakers better prepare themselves, because whoever comes out on top from that struggle will take over the market just like it happened with solar panels.
[+] [-] iandanforth|2 years ago|reply
Note: This sweet spot seems to have disappeared from the market as I don't believe any plug-in hybrids available in the US today match the EV range of the Clarity.
[+] [-] AYBABTME|2 years ago|reply
These companies are walking dead. And like IBM, they probably can be walking dead for a good while.
[+] [-] NoGravitas|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xkgt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 11thEarlOfMar|2 years ago|reply
It's interesting that there is no mention in the article about most auto makers adopting the Tesla charging standard and ceding profit on charging to Tesla. That pattern will continue as Tesla's all-out technology and investment sprint continues to widen the gap.
In my view, by the time the legacy auto makers get a profitable, competitively priced BEV into the showrooms, Tesla (and the Chinese companies) will have their low-cost factory running in Mexico, lowering the bar on them again. And then Full Self Driving will go wide as the final nail in the coffin.
I'm not a short-seller because people like short sellers about the same as undertakers, but if I were, I'd be betting that the legacy autos are declaring bankruptcy again in less than 5 years.