[wholien]

perhaps also related to the “Sea Peoples” during the bronze age collapse ~3,0000 years ago?

Could see how the people of the Aegean could produce myths like Atlantis when they themselves were invading Egypt and most likely became the Philistines of the Old Testament, aka Goliath’s people (local greek pottery discovered there, as well as descriptions of helmets etc lend credence to Philistines being the invading Greeks)

[kromem]

You actually see the story about an elite sea peoples warrior being killed by a shepherd throwing a stone in the Argonautica.

The thing is, it's shortly after their prophet Mopsus died in the desert as they wandered by foot back from a conflict in North Africa, remarkably similar to a prophet Moses dying in the desert as different tribes wander by foot back from a conflict in North Africa.

Which ends up very interesting given the Aegean style pottery made with local clay in Tel Dan, the mention of Dan staying on their ships in Judges 5, the descendent of Moses going with Dan in Judges 18, and then the Denyen sea peoples in Adana recording their rulers as belonging to the House of Mopsus. Particularly in light of Ezekiel 27:19 where Dan and the Greeks are trading together with Tyre in goods that seem likely to come from the Ahhiyawa and Denyen geographies.

There's an important missing piece to understanding the context of the sea peoples that's unfortunately overlooked given the version of the story that was claimed by Hecataeus of Adbera to have recently been changed by subsequent conquests is the only version seriously looked at while the Greek and Egyptian accounts are broadly ignored.

If you're interested in the topic, I recommend looking over the details of the battle of Kadesh inscriptions, particularly noting how Ramses II captured twelve groups of tribes, one for each son with him. At least one of those tribes (the Lukka) are among the first mention of "sea peoples" when they are allied with Libya in a single day battle against Merneptah - which bears striking resemblance to Odysseus's single day battle in Egypt right after Troy falls. He hangs out in Egypt for 7 years until "a certain Phrygian" shows up and tries to ransom him to Libya. Interestingly, exactly seven years after the sea peoples battle is when the usurper Pharoh Amenmesse (going by 'Msy' in Papyrus Salt 124) conquered Egypt.

The picture is a bit more complex than any one ethnocentric story centuries later retells it, and the scholars in antiquity that had Moses as one of the Argonauts or had Greek ancestors as part of the Exodus may have been more relevant than we give tend to regard them.

[dlisboa]

I'm becoming interested in comparative mythology and religious historiography, it seems you have some pointers in this area. Do you have any books to recommend? I'm very interested in a materialistic explanation of religion, the relation of myths to events at the time is intriguing to me.

[dormento]

Just wanted to say that this is really interesting, and part of why I keep coming back to hn. Thanks for the new perspective.

[Maken]

For what I understand, the Sea Peoples invasions are the basis for the Iliad stories, with real Troy being destroyed in the Bronze Age collapse.

[kromem]

Kind of. Homer is combining two separate events into one.

You have the LBA Mycenaean conquest of Anatolia establishing a foothold which correlates to the catalogue of ships (~1400-1350 BCE).

And then you have the sea peoples conquest of Troy taking it back from the Hittites in the early Iron Age (~1200-1180 BCE).

In between that time you have letters from the Hittites pursuing a refugee asking the Ahhiyawa to hand him over from Troy (so presumably the pre-Greeks already had influence over Troy), then later referring to their own vassal in charge of the city.

The sea peoples are primarily Anatolian and from the Aegean isles. They don't seem to be from the Greek mainland, whereas the Mycenaeans were.

So you have a predominantly Greek story of the initial LBA conquest, and then a quite mixed group conquering their own homelands which happens in the early Iron Age.

Homer rolls them up into one story of a predominantly Greek conquest of Troy, and as a result the Greeks had an entirely broken picture of the LBA/EIA period, from Perseus being his own grandfather based on the sources to thinking the Argonauts (a sea people story) happened before the Mycenaean catalogue of ships when it was the other way around.

You can even match details in both parts of the story to independent events recorded in Egypt during each of the respective periods.

[myth_drannon]

Yes, it's well established that Philistines were Greek sailors that were invading Egypt. After Revolt of Maccabees against Greek Seleucid empire (Jewish holiday of Hannukah), a Philistine Gaza that was a Greek stronghold, was conquered by one of the revolt leaders (Jonathan the Hasmonean).

[ffgjgf1]

> Philistines were Greek sailors that were invading Egypt

There is a thousand year gap between that and:

> a Philistine Gaza that was a Greek stronghold, was conquered by one of the revolt leaders (Jonathan the Hasmonean).

In reality they were almost certainly entirely unconnected. There is no way that by the time the Greeks conquered the region during Alexander’s time they would considered Philistines to be “Greek” in any discernible way.

[csomar]

The sea people are probably what we consider now barbarians. They can be powerful when an empire is going through a weak period but they do not have an established civilization (they are nomads and survive from plunder)