Not here defending SpaceX, cannot speak for some of the specific cases like the individual who was sitting on top of a truck to hold a load down. What I don't like though is the lack of real comparison. It reads more like a hit piece against spacex with all the specific examples of cases that tug at the heart. Would like to see some better comparison, I don't know how realistic the space industry average is. How many companies are in the space industry.
The BLS total recordable cases for all US report in 2022 (cases involving days away from work and other) is 2.7 per 100. Would have liked the article to dive more into the data details instead of the specific cases. Too easy to focus on specific cases and ignore what the data means. I am not sure if comparing this to other space industry companies is fair. I have no idea who is included but are the engineers on a team included in these worker counts? So my best comparison is the total rate listed by BLS which is 2.7/100.
I used to do workers comp insurance (which covers against the injuries in the article) and 600 injuries over almost 10 years sounds relatively in line with my expectations of a construction/prototyping firm. It sounds like the journalist got a leaked copy of the SpaceX loss runs. They tend to make the accidents sound more gruesome than they really are. If you get a papercut and report it, that shows up as a laceration on the sheet. Not saying there aren’t bad claims (amputation and death are never good!), but it’s very easy to make a company look bad even if they have good risk control.
I’m not denying that there probably were gaps in personal safety, but my guess is the risk manager has improved process. If this weren’t the case, no one would sell them workers comp insurance. I agree this looks like a hit piece.
Ultimately, a worker sitting on top of a truck to hold down a load, is a failure of the company: rules and trainings have to be implace to avoid this unsafe behavior, managers, and ultimately the CEO, has to enforce those rules. If that doesn't happen an unsafe culture is promoted, one that leads to accidents.
The 0.8 injuries per 100 workers for "Guided missile and space vehicle manufacturing" category is very low when comparing to other manufacturing industries that is comparable to what SpaceX is doing:
> What I don't like though is the lack of real comparison
Did you read the article?
> The 2022 injury rate at the company’s manufacturing-and-launch facility near Brownsville, Texas, was 4.8 injuries or illnesses per 100 workers – six times higher than the space-industry average of 0.8. Its rocket-testing facility in McGregor, Texas, where LeBlanc died, had a rate of 2.7, more than three times the average. The rate at its Hawthorne, California, manufacturing facility was more than double the average at 1.8 injuries per 100 workers. The company’s facility in Redmond, Washington, had a rate of 0.8, the same as the industry average.
Also, what's missed in your logic - safety is a process. You can see lots of evidence in this article (which isn't surprising, as Musk talks about it openly) that they avoid process of safety, view it as one-off responsibilities and will cut it whenever they need to move fast on some artificial goals set by the wealthiest man on earth.
This is a problem with workplace culture and corresponds to equally poor culture in the other companies Musk controls.
He's moving fast and breaking things, namely people, be it his customers or employees.
But no problem: pay a fine, roll out another phalanx of lawyers and there is little real cost. If CEOs were prosecuted for negligent homicide the number of preventable workplace and product deaths would surely drop to zero.
I don't know the reality; it's awful for people involved in these accidents, disappointing if it is as cavalier as it's being painted, but it does also feel like I'm being told a version of events by the attorney for the plaintiff, rather than an impartial fact-contextualiser.
I've always thought making people work long hours, repeatedly, would have a negative impact on their health. These injuries are far worse than I expected, but then I was only thinking about a desk job.
I love what SpaceX and Tesla are doing, but it's difficult to be an Elon fan when people are being seriously hurt because of bad policies.
I'm a fan of what SpaceX and Tesla are trying to achieve in a technical context (cheaper space flight and electrification of transport). Elon is obviously highly instrumental in this happening and should be recognized as such.
But his conduct otherwise has not been respectable and that too should be recognized.
People tend to all all or nothing but the answer is usually somewhere in between.
For the keyboard warriors, defending it and telling people that it's individuals fault.
Lots of you work in tech, behind the desk. If the system you're working on keeps on breaking when others interact with it - is their fault or is the system not advanced enough? If you give all your employees root access to the production, and expect them to use it wisely and care about safety - when it something breaks - is it the fault of the employee or fault of the company for allowing such a reckless actions?
As some who worked there for 4.5 years, this is an accurate description of the work culture at SpaceX. You sacrifice safety for speed. As a young person it’s an opportunity to take on a lot responsibilities, but at that point in your life you don’t have the fortitude to tell Elon, who does push the agenda directly to personnel, to say you do not deem this task safe/smart/responsible.
Gwynn is a sly leader that tries to balance out Elon and non-Elon agendas, but will capitulate to Elon on a regular basis. You definitely do get fired for delaying any Elon focused project, regardless of the reason, if you’re annoying enough or easily replaceable. If you want to go toe to toe with Elon you better be the most productive person, with a good track record, have a rare skill set or knowledge, and be willing to risk your career.
Also, those numbers would be way more if they actually reported all the injuries and/or caught them all. Employees definitely hide their injuries cuz they want to keep their job.
If you guys only knew about the “near-misses” as well, they are wild.
https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/space-race-timeline
Given the Space Race timeline, it seems like that would mean beating NASA to MANY major milestones.
4 October 1957: The USSR successfully launches Sputnik 1, the first Earth-orbiting satellite in history.
3 November 1957: The USSR successfully launches Sputnik 2, carrying a dog named Laika into space. They become the first nation to successfully send a living organism into orbit.
12 September 1959: The USSR launches Luna 2 and accomplishes its mission of creating the first spacecraft to reach the surface of the Moon.
4 October 1959: The USSR launches Luna 3 and succeeds in their mission of sending an object into orbit around the Moon and photographing the far side of the Moon.
12 April 1961: The Soviet Union achieve a clear triumph in the space race. Aboard the Vostok 1, Yuri Gagarin makes a single orbit around the Earth and becomes the first man to reach space. He remained in space for one hour and forty-eight minutes before landing in Saratov Oblast, west Russia.
That's exactly what it sounds like. From the article:
> Four employees said he sometimes played with a novelty flamethrower and discouraged workers from wearing safety yellow because he dislikes bright colors.
I would think that if you actually see that sort of comment so often that it would be reasonable to exaggerate it as “continuous”, you would be familiar enough with the person in question to know their actual name.
If only Elon was actually advancing actual humanity, and not just his own narrow idea of what humanity should be.
Also, trying to establish a self-sustaining base on Mars right now is short-sighted and a tremendous waste of energy and material.
Also also, how you do a thing is (often) as important as doing the thing itself, we're still suffering the consequences of last centuries megalomaniacal claims to be advancing humanity at the expense of a few people.
And just in case someone mentions something like D-Day, I doubt any of Elon's workers signed on to sacrifice their bodies to "save humanity" in the same way the Allies signed up (or consented to be drafted) to save Europe.
Two of the examples of injuries sustained by workers given in the article sound like a lack of awareness of one’s personal safety was a major contributing factor in the accidents… Specifically, sitting on an unsecured load on a vehicle to hold it down, and being in close proximity to a rocket engine undergoing pressure testing.
I’m sure the lack of a culture of safety and availability of equipment bears some of the blame, but some responsibility has to rest with the individual to say “no, I don’t think it’s a good idea to put my head in there”.
This is why employees (usually) receive occupational safety training. You can't control employee's every move, but they fact that several people thought this was ok points to corporate failure, not an individual.
Its a balance. Thats why its important to have someone on the job site watching and noting issues for correction. Workers do not always think about their safety but want to get the job done as quickly and easily as possible, even if that puts their own lives as risk.
infecto|2 years ago
The BLS total recordable cases for all US report in 2022 (cases involving days away from work and other) is 2.7 per 100. Would have liked the article to dive more into the data details instead of the specific cases. Too easy to focus on specific cases and ignore what the data means. I am not sure if comparing this to other space industry companies is fair. I have no idea who is included but are the engineers on a team included in these worker counts? So my best comparison is the total rate listed by BLS which is 2.7/100.
proteal|2 years ago
I’m not denying that there probably were gaps in personal safety, but my guess is the risk manager has improved process. If this weren’t the case, no one would sell them workers comp insurance. I agree this looks like a hit piece.
hef19898|2 years ago
shiftpgdn|2 years ago
izacus|2 years ago
You all really need to stop shilling for that dude.
marcusverus|2 years ago
The 0.8 injuries per 100 workers for "Guided missile and space vehicle manufacturing" category is very low when comparing to other manufacturing industries that is comparable to what SpaceX is doing:
Average of all private industries: 2.7
Fabricated metal product manufacturing: 3.7
Machinery manufacturing: 2.8
Motor vehicle manufacturing: 5.9
Motor vehicle body and trailer manufacturing: 5.8
Motor vehicle parts manufacturing: 3.1
Aircraft manufacturing: 2.5
Ship and boat building: 5.6
justapassenger|2 years ago
Did you read the article?
> The 2022 injury rate at the company’s manufacturing-and-launch facility near Brownsville, Texas, was 4.8 injuries or illnesses per 100 workers – six times higher than the space-industry average of 0.8. Its rocket-testing facility in McGregor, Texas, where LeBlanc died, had a rate of 2.7, more than three times the average. The rate at its Hawthorne, California, manufacturing facility was more than double the average at 1.8 injuries per 100 workers. The company’s facility in Redmond, Washington, had a rate of 0.8, the same as the industry average.
Also, what's missed in your logic - safety is a process. You can see lots of evidence in this article (which isn't surprising, as Musk talks about it openly) that they avoid process of safety, view it as one-off responsibilities and will cut it whenever they need to move fast on some artificial goals set by the wealthiest man on earth.
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
mirekrusin|2 years ago
dkjaudyeqooe|2 years ago
He's moving fast and breaking things, namely people, be it his customers or employees.
But no problem: pay a fine, roll out another phalanx of lawyers and there is little real cost. If CEOs were prosecuted for negligent homicide the number of preventable workplace and product deaths would surely drop to zero.
inemesitaffia|2 years ago
dwighttk|2 years ago
This is all about higher than average injury rates at SpaceX, but just tucks this in after comparing the injury rates
robertlagrant|2 years ago
mgiannopoulos|2 years ago
jasfi|2 years ago
I love what SpaceX and Tesla are doing, but it's difficult to be an Elon fan when people are being seriously hurt because of bad policies.
pstuart|2 years ago
But his conduct otherwise has not been respectable and that too should be recognized.
People tend to all all or nothing but the answer is usually somewhere in between.
justapassenger|2 years ago
Lots of you work in tech, behind the desk. If the system you're working on keeps on breaking when others interact with it - is their fault or is the system not advanced enough? If you give all your employees root access to the production, and expect them to use it wisely and care about safety - when it something breaks - is it the fault of the employee or fault of the company for allowing such a reckless actions?
virgil_|2 years ago
virgil_|2 years ago
If you guys only knew about the “near-misses” as well, they are wild.
FrustratedMonky|2 years ago
robertlagrant|2 years ago
3seashells|2 years ago
liotier|2 years ago
pauldenton|2 years ago
3 November 1957: The USSR successfully launches Sputnik 2, carrying a dog named Laika into space. They become the first nation to successfully send a living organism into orbit.
12 September 1959: The USSR launches Luna 2 and accomplishes its mission of creating the first spacecraft to reach the surface of the Moon.
4 October 1959: The USSR launches Luna 3 and succeeds in their mission of sending an object into orbit around the Moon and photographing the far side of the Moon.
12 April 1961: The Soviet Union achieve a clear triumph in the space race. Aboard the Vostok 1, Yuri Gagarin makes a single orbit around the Earth and becomes the first man to reach space. He remained in space for one hour and forty-eight minutes before landing in Saratov Oblast, west Russia.
AlgorithmicTime|2 years ago
[deleted]
vt85|2 years ago
[deleted]
onetokeoverthe|2 years ago
[deleted]
FirmwareBurner|2 years ago
[deleted]
_def|2 years ago
> Four employees said he sometimes played with a novelty flamethrower and discouraged workers from wearing safety yellow because he dislikes bright colors.
yreg|2 years ago
doubleDayPage9|2 years ago
[deleted]
tekla|2 years ago
fernandotakai|2 years ago
when good things happen, elon had nothing to do with it, he's useless and only do harm.
Fricken|2 years ago
bandyaboot|2 years ago
Eumenes|2 years ago
gooseus|2 years ago
Also, trying to establish a self-sustaining base on Mars right now is short-sighted and a tremendous waste of energy and material.
Also also, how you do a thing is (often) as important as doing the thing itself, we're still suffering the consequences of last centuries megalomaniacal claims to be advancing humanity at the expense of a few people.
And just in case someone mentions something like D-Day, I doubt any of Elon's workers signed on to sacrifice their bodies to "save humanity" in the same way the Allies signed up (or consented to be drafted) to save Europe.
dorkwood|2 years ago
T-A|2 years ago
oblio|2 years ago
boeingUH60|2 years ago
preisschild|2 years ago
elonkind
danw1979|2 years ago
I’m sure the lack of a culture of safety and availability of equipment bears some of the blame, but some responsibility has to rest with the individual to say “no, I don’t think it’s a good idea to put my head in there”.
dkjaudyeqooe|2 years ago
infecto|2 years ago