Speaking only for myself as a consumer, I'm not just buying fewer lattes, I'm actively looking for businesses that can make the ordering process familiar and convenient. I don't want to have to have my phone on me, or to pull it out, scan a QR code, read a digital menu. Just let me walk up to the counter, read a physical menu, place my order with a human being and get out of there.
There are a FEW situations where mobile ordering and such is better. When there is a MASSIVE line at the counter for example. Mobile ordering can skip waiting in line and let you know when your order is ready to go pick up. In that situation, it makes sense.
But most restaurants, at least where I live (in a medium sized city), don't come close to having that issue.
Yet trends are trends and we love solving things with the wrong tools just because something is popular somewhere, so businesses assume consumers will enjoy it everywhere and it will be the "next big thing." 90% of the time, it's not.
>Just let me walk up to the counter, read a physical menu, place my order with a human being and get out of there.
Seriously. Seems like so many physical businesses are going fully digital with little reason to do so. Following a trend, I guess. But the utility of interacting with a human versus navigating an app (of which it seems every restaurant or fast-casual-takeout has their own) is just so much higher. The cost to build and maintain that app too eats into the establishment's costs, which in turn mean the end consumer's costs are higher. I'm already paying high prices as-is, and my experience isn't drastically better doing everything digitally.
As you said, maybe there's a scale at which digital processes are indeed faster and less cumbersome (like a McDonald's level operation), and offers higher marginal utility, but most places I order from aren't at that scale. Few are.
> Just let me walk up to the counter, read a physical menu, place my order with a human being and get out of there.
The problem is, as wages and COL go up, this gets harder and harder to do. Humans are expensive, and as they keep getting more expensive, it stops making economic sense to use them for low-margin goods and services like lattes. Notice how we don't have elevator operators, pump station attendants, etc. anymore, because eventually it became uneconomic to do that with people instead of making the customer do it themselves.
The future for most retail and food service businesses is fewer people and more automation (e.g. ordering at your table via an app and the server only comes by to bring your food); it can't really be any other way unless you want your food subject to Baumol cost disease.
I absolutely prefer online ordering. I'll use the app to order even if I'm standing in the restaurant and there is a human and no line.
Telling a human what I want means that person has to hear me, understand me, and then press the right buttons on the register (which in a lot of cases is literally the same buttons I press in the app).
All that does is introduce another place for error. My doing it myself I can confirm that my order is exactly correct.
The payment system that adds a tip line for every transaction is another big one. It feels so passive aggressive when a staff member stands there and watches me fret over what to tip when I'm just buying a bottled drink. And it's not even that person's fault.
One thing I’ve noticed over the last few years: none of Michelin-star, tasting menu, $200 and up per plate restaurants have QR code menus. And regardless of personal taste or any kind of objective assessment of pros and cons of digital menus, whatever upscale space converges on, becomes the status symbol. So digital menus are bound to become a symbol of cheap places, if they haven’t already.
You're discounting the time you spend waiting for your order to be prepared. I now pretty much exclusively get lunch at places that have online ordering, because I can order before I leave the house and it's ready when I get there.
Restaurants prefer QR codes because they're less work for servers (either one or two fewer trips, depending) they can change menus daily or even hourly, and table ordering makes everything super-smooth.
Most people do have their phones on them all the time now.
Having said - onboarding for these services could be so much easier. That's the part that doesn't work for me - sitting down, wanting food, and having to fill in a long form to register, usually for no good reason.
You could just as easily order, leave the app open, and get updates by table number with none of that.
Back in September I went out to get a haircut. My usual barber was swamped with kids due to back-to-school so I decided to try out a different newer place that was just up the block. They advertise that they offer online appointments and walk-ins, and I see a LCD screen by the cash register announcing that the walk-in wait was only 5 minutes so I figure why not. I sit down and a minute or two later a employee ask:
'Hi, can you tell me what email address you check in with online'
I respond: 'I didn't check in online, it says you take walk-ins on your sign.'
She responds: 'Yes, no problem, can I have your email address'
I say: 'No, I just what a haircut, why do you need my email address'
To make the rest of the story short I didn't want to give these strangers any information in order to get a simple haircut, told them this was all weird, and left. The next day I was able to get my haircut at my usual barber who has only ever wanted to know a name to address me as and whatever information I offer up in the usual getting your haircut small talk.
Can we safely assume that the goal is always to benefit the consumer. Perhaps there is a pitch to merchants, maybe they get some benefits, but as for consumers, many so-called "tech" companies would have every consumer using a computer for anything and everything in the name of "convenience" or some speculation like "this is the future". The so-called "tech" companies are the ones who stand to benefit. These companies may have a blindspot for conflicts of interest. Their interests do not always align with the interests of consumers. They certainly have a blindness toward the fact that computers are not always essential in every life situation.
I'm rooting for people like you to stick around and to be vocal about this. Not because I agree; in fact I couldn't disagree more. Having to deal with a person is annoying, error prone, and takes extra time. The electronic ordering systems are substantially faster to order, I can avoid the line, and all of the options available to me are quickly discoverable.
The best part is that most people tend to go towards the human ordering line if it is available so I can quickly get my stuff and leave in a fraction of the time. I don't understand why people wouldn't do the same, but until they catch on I am benefitting immensely.
> Just let me walk up to the counter, read a physical menu, place my order with a human being and get out of there.
Reminds me went to Quest yesterday to get my blood drawn. Tech told me I had to sign in at the kiosk. So I did. And then it wanted to scan my drivers license. Nope. A few minutes later an old man hobbled in. Directed to the kiosk he said he didn't have his reading glasses. So another tech had to stand there and ask him for the information and enter it for him.
Maybe I'm old but it feels like the enshitification is moving faster and faster.
> Nick Martin cited higher borrowing costs as a main reason that Joe Coffee has reduced the number of software products it buys. The company now has roughly six software subscriptions, down from 12 to 15, accounting for 3% to 5% of operating expenses, down from around 8%, he said.
> Decisions on what to get rid of are based on whether a product is a “nice to have” or is essential to business operations. “Can we get away with just doing this in a spreadsheet?” he said.
12–15 is a lot of software subscriptions. I think you'll expect to see more consolidation of software products, if they're all so specific to the restaurant space. Especially with customers just wanting better integration and less complexity.
> “Can we get away with just doing this in a spreadsheet?” he said.
Realistically you can do pretty much everything a startup or small business needs in a spreadsheet. Buying specialized software at that scale is a nice to have.
HR, payroll, time tracking, POS, online ordering, review alerting, online advertising, social media marketing, email marketing, integration services, financial reporting, website, email, rewards management.
And that's for a business that mostly operates offline. It's really easy for these things add up quickly and without you realizing it.
This is why I always object when someone points out that $50/user/mo is a tiny percentage compared to what you're paying for the employee. It's not $50/user/mo, it's typically ($50 * 10-20)/user/mo.
Turns out, consumers aren't the only ones fed up with having needless subscriptions shoved down their throats. In infinite money covid land, it wasn't that much of a problem for businesses, but like so many other things, now that rates are up small and medium businesses are questioning whether these things are providing that monthly value.
I sometimes have a dream where I escape software and end up running the local donut shop down the street. In this dream, I always end up writing some GNU donut shop software though :)
I really think there is a market for niche software solutions, where a small shop can evolve with the business and keep growing with customers.
Some products seem enticing at first, when let's say a user is only $20 a month, but it quickly adds up and that does not account for migrations and retraining employees which often is an extreme pain point.
I write/manage a large project and we are very careful about any large changes because it is a pain to retrain non-technical employees.
I know an older guy, who has been working with multiple similar businesses and tailoring AS400(created circa 1986) to them. He made a business around it and it has been chugging along for few decades now.
Extreme example - I’m just a guy with an Airbnb as a side hustle. (Barely even a real business!) I’m pretty thoughtful about taking on new software subscriptions, but I currently pay for:
- Google/Nest video storage - $18/mo (might be a little off there)
…and I’m probably forgetting something. I scrutinize this list regularly and there’s nothing I’d get rid of. These are also purely software subscriptions - not including things like cable/internet, recurring maintenance, insurance, etc. There’s also a long list of products I probably could add to the mix to help manage the house and the business that is a short term rental.
I’m pretty sure this pattern exists in every corner of the market across industries and across business sizes.
Anecdotal evidence of macro trends aside, it isn't clear to me what value Joe Coffee provides. It seems like they are a SaaS reseller for a particular vertical (coffee shops), and have some amount of custom software. My local, Barrett's Coffee in Austin (they are excellent, btw), seems to use Shopify on their website, and I suspect that the iPad-like PoS system in the shop is backed by the same inventory and sales management system. I don't really see the value in using a middle-man that's specific to coffee when it seems like a reasonably smart owner plus a general sales platform should do the trick.
I run an online retail business from home as the only employee. My software costs:
* Excel (accounting)
* Sellbrite (inventory and listing) - subscription
* ShipStation (shipping) - subscription. However, this can largely be replaced by
* Veeqo (also shipping) - free
Sellbrite, ShipStation, and Veeqo work well enough, but they don't handle the recording of each order's financials, which I do in Excel. If there is a one-stop solution that can grab orders' revenue, sales tax, and fees from Amazon, Walmart, and eBay in this way, I'd like to hear about it.
Software costs can really add up for a small business. I run a relatively small business -- mostly online -- and between 3 main services, the software (and hosting) adds up to around $15k US per year, which is not insignificant. And that's with hosting our own email server, which otherwise would cost us another $15k or so per year to go with an established ESP.
I wonder if increasing percentage of tip, aggressively seeking tip from reluctant shoppers will help cover loses due to less footfalls in coffee shops and the likes.
[+] [-] gspencley|2 years ago|reply
There are a FEW situations where mobile ordering and such is better. When there is a MASSIVE line at the counter for example. Mobile ordering can skip waiting in line and let you know when your order is ready to go pick up. In that situation, it makes sense.
But most restaurants, at least where I live (in a medium sized city), don't come close to having that issue.
Yet trends are trends and we love solving things with the wrong tools just because something is popular somewhere, so businesses assume consumers will enjoy it everywhere and it will be the "next big thing." 90% of the time, it's not.
[+] [-] NickC25|2 years ago|reply
Seriously. Seems like so many physical businesses are going fully digital with little reason to do so. Following a trend, I guess. But the utility of interacting with a human versus navigating an app (of which it seems every restaurant or fast-casual-takeout has their own) is just so much higher. The cost to build and maintain that app too eats into the establishment's costs, which in turn mean the end consumer's costs are higher. I'm already paying high prices as-is, and my experience isn't drastically better doing everything digitally.
As you said, maybe there's a scale at which digital processes are indeed faster and less cumbersome (like a McDonald's level operation), and offers higher marginal utility, but most places I order from aren't at that scale. Few are.
[+] [-] Analemma_|2 years ago|reply
The problem is, as wages and COL go up, this gets harder and harder to do. Humans are expensive, and as they keep getting more expensive, it stops making economic sense to use them for low-margin goods and services like lattes. Notice how we don't have elevator operators, pump station attendants, etc. anymore, because eventually it became uneconomic to do that with people instead of making the customer do it themselves.
The future for most retail and food service businesses is fewer people and more automation (e.g. ordering at your table via an app and the server only comes by to bring your food); it can't really be any other way unless you want your food subject to Baumol cost disease.
[+] [-] jedberg|2 years ago|reply
Telling a human what I want means that person has to hear me, understand me, and then press the right buttons on the register (which in a lot of cases is literally the same buttons I press in the app).
All that does is introduce another place for error. My doing it myself I can confirm that my order is exactly correct.
[+] [-] SantalBlush|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] golergka|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] janeerie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TheOtherHobbes|2 years ago|reply
Most people do have their phones on them all the time now.
Having said - onboarding for these services could be so much easier. That's the part that doesn't work for me - sitting down, wanting food, and having to fill in a long form to register, usually for no good reason.
You could just as easily order, leave the app open, and get updates by table number with none of that.
[+] [-] isk517|2 years ago|reply
To make the rest of the story short I didn't want to give these strangers any information in order to get a simple haircut, told them this was all weird, and left. The next day I was able to get my haircut at my usual barber who has only ever wanted to know a name to address me as and whatever information I offer up in the usual getting your haircut small talk.
[+] [-] 1vuio0pswjnm7|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] earthling8118|2 years ago|reply
The best part is that most people tend to go towards the human ordering line if it is available so I can quickly get my stuff and leave in a fraction of the time. I don't understand why people wouldn't do the same, but until they catch on I am benefitting immensely.
[+] [-] mhh__|2 years ago|reply
I can usually take or leave paying in cash but Jesus Christ.
[+] [-] tennisflyi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Gibbon1|2 years ago|reply
Reminds me went to Quest yesterday to get my blood drawn. Tech told me I had to sign in at the kiosk. So I did. And then it wanted to scan my drivers license. Nope. A few minutes later an old man hobbled in. Directed to the kiosk he said he didn't have his reading glasses. So another tech had to stand there and ask him for the information and enter it for him.
Maybe I'm old but it feels like the enshitification is moving faster and faster.
[+] [-] wnevets|2 years ago|reply
No thanks.
[+] [-] crazygringo|2 years ago|reply
> Nick Martin cited higher borrowing costs as a main reason that Joe Coffee has reduced the number of software products it buys. The company now has roughly six software subscriptions, down from 12 to 15, accounting for 3% to 5% of operating expenses, down from around 8%, he said.
> Decisions on what to get rid of are based on whether a product is a “nice to have” or is essential to business operations. “Can we get away with just doing this in a spreadsheet?” he said.
12–15 is a lot of software subscriptions. I think you'll expect to see more consolidation of software products, if they're all so specific to the restaurant space. Especially with customers just wanting better integration and less complexity.
[+] [-] CSMastermind|2 years ago|reply
Realistically you can do pretty much everything a startup or small business needs in a spreadsheet. Buying specialized software at that scale is a nice to have.
[+] [-] cooperadymas|2 years ago|reply
And that's for a business that mostly operates offline. It's really easy for these things add up quickly and without you realizing it.
This is why I always object when someone points out that $50/user/mo is a tiny percentage compared to what you're paying for the employee. It's not $50/user/mo, it's typically ($50 * 10-20)/user/mo.
[+] [-] rchaud|2 years ago|reply
I felt a great disturbance in the incubator, as if millions of SaaS suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
[+] [-] sickofparadox|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robotburrito|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marci|2 years ago|reply
Or maybe some displays that show ascii donuts: https://www.a1k0n.net/2011/07/20/donut-math.html
[+] [-] bbarn|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gedy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] avgDev|2 years ago|reply
Some products seem enticing at first, when let's say a user is only $20 a month, but it quickly adds up and that does not account for migrations and retraining employees which often is an extreme pain point.
I write/manage a large project and we are very careful about any large changes because it is a pain to retrain non-technical employees.
I know an older guy, who has been working with multiple similar businesses and tailoring AS400(created circa 1986) to them. He made a business around it and it has been chugging along for few decades now.
[+] [-] kbos87|2 years ago|reply
- Guesty (calendar management & guest messaging) - $40/mo
- Pricelabs (algorithmic price management) - $20/mo
- Abode (security system) - $16/mo
- Sutro (pool & spa monitoring) - $30/mo
- Minut (noise monitoring) - $12/mo
- Google/Nest video storage - $18/mo (might be a little off there)
…and I’m probably forgetting something. I scrutinize this list regularly and there’s nothing I’d get rid of. These are also purely software subscriptions - not including things like cable/internet, recurring maintenance, insurance, etc. There’s also a long list of products I probably could add to the mix to help manage the house and the business that is a short term rental.
I’m pretty sure this pattern exists in every corner of the market across industries and across business sizes.
[+] [-] CogitoCogito|2 years ago|reply
Out of curiosity, is this similar to the price collusion software discussed here?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38297203
[+] [-] timeon|2 years ago|reply
Is this not provided by Airbnb?
[+] [-] cowboyscott|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TMWNN|2 years ago|reply
* Excel (accounting)
* Sellbrite (inventory and listing) - subscription
* ShipStation (shipping) - subscription. However, this can largely be replaced by
* Veeqo (also shipping) - free
Sellbrite, ShipStation, and Veeqo work well enough, but they don't handle the recording of each order's financials, which I do in Excel. If there is a one-stop solution that can grab orders' revenue, sales tax, and fees from Amazon, Walmart, and eBay in this way, I'd like to hear about it.
[+] [-] boplicity|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nly|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geodel|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rchaud|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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