Things are changing. Technology is cheaper, internet is prevalent and small organizations disrupt the ways of the dinosaurs. We've seen that with newspapers, we are seeing that with Hollywood and we'll soon see it in education. The dinosaurs are big and powerful, but we all know what happens to them eventually. Sooner or later technology wins. Always.
Having said that I hope Geocoder gets help with PR. I'm no PR expert but the fact that this post is not on their front page is the first bad sign. And the media, which always loves a David & Goliath story, apparently hasn't covered this; that's another bad sign. Swaying public opinion to your side is the way to win this, not litigation. If Geocoder lets Canada Post drag them to court they've already lost.
As a Canadian I'm one of the owners of Canada Post and I hope I lose.
Along the PR lines, it seems like something their local- well, I'm an ignorant American so whatever the equivalent of Congressperson is (the Queen?) - might want to involve themselves in. As it's not actual DB theft, it seems like they are trying to create a monopoly (albeit a very narrow one).
Canada Post is pretty stupid on this one. Even if you type a postal code into Google Maps you get a result.
I could imagine how old and stupid the gov't official is who filed that claim. Canada's a broke country, and the latest government budget has cut a tonne of government jobs, slashed R&D credits, etc.
I came across this while researching postal code data. I was first shocked to learn that this data set wasn't freely available from Canada Post ($5,000/year to access it), then pleased to find geocoder.ca's data set, and then pissed to learn they were being sued for it.
So far there has been absolutely no media attention on this.
Which sadly isnt' surprising. The combination of it being something that would only affect a small group of people (basically anyone in the IT industry building location-aware applications), and the media's ADD-like ability to concentrate on issues will keep it from ever seeing the light of day.
I don't know what this government has against the tech industry in this country, but it must be some serious loathing with all the BS coming down the pipes
Just a note to make sure we are all comparing apples with apples, but US (and Australian) postcodes are much less specific than Canadian (and UK) postcodes.
AFAIK In Canada and the UK a postcode gives you an exact address, or pretty close to (around 10-20 properties to each postcode?). In the USA and Australia, a post code just gives you a 'suburb' (hundreds to thousands of properties to each postcode).
Furthemore, Russian govt releases full information on Postal Codes, Cities, Streets and even House numbers on those streets. For free, but in very large files http://fias.nalog.ru/Public/DownloadPage.aspx
Do you know how accurate that is? Every time I've seen census zip code data it comes with a big disclaimer that its only accurate as of the last census. The USPS changes zip codes at will.
Canada law is weird. They have "Crown copyright". As for Canada Post, they are required to make money, and are not required to not exploit publicly funded dataset like the postal code database. This is called monopoly.
Depends on how you interpret it. You are correct in that you can't coyright facts, but I'm sure the lawyers that Canada Post has hired will argue that since Canada Post created/authored the postal codes, it has ownership of that data and therefore can be copyrighted. The rest is just a combo of spin and waiting for the sued parties to be bled dry.
If a country that is more capitalist and copyright mad then we are has no issue providing postal data, that our crown corporation has their panties in a twist is a cruel joke. Just adds another reason why I'd never use Canada Post for anything anyways.
While many jurisdictions hold the same, that 'facts' can't be subject to copyright, there is often a (lobbied for) grey area surrounding compilations of facts.
The usual suspects in these cases are recipes, Geodata and my personal favourite - Premier League Football fixtures. The latter is in the final stages of a European court challenge that is rightly claiming licensing such a simple set of data for thousands of pounds is absurd: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17218968
It would be an interesting case. I hope it goes to court but there's probably no chance that it will unless somebody takes it on pro bono. Is there any organization like the EFF in Canada?
I was under the impression that you can't copyright facts.
It depends.
In some places you can copyright a database of facts. In some places you cannot copyright a database of facts. In some places you need to do some 'creative act' to get copyright, some places use a 'sweat of the brow' rule (i.e. that you have expanded some effort, even if it's not creative). It gets coplicated.
Is there a link to the C&D or the court case details? I'm sure we can agree that helping people with zipcode data for free is laudable, but reading only one half of an argument isn't a good way to make decisions.
a) Geocoder only charges for their data if you need it without the restrictions of the ODbLicence it's released under (basically attribution, share-alike).
b) giving it away for free would not actually change anything legally. You can still get sued for copyright infringement even if you don't make any money on it.
The issue with these postcode databases is that once they're released to a customer there's no real way of tracking if they get reused elsewhere. The contract I had with the Royal Mail in the UK mandated destruction of all media and backups of the database once the contract period expired. As we know, getting individual tables out of old DB backups isn't necessarily easy but that's what the terms state. It's easy to see why they do that because it's not really a complicated "product" and very easy to duplicate.
That said, Canada Post should have tried to talk before litigation as all this does is make a crown organisation look like a bully in front of Canadians and now the world.
I'm likely speaking from the wrong culture, but the phrasing "You haven't made it until you get sued" on their home page sounds like Geocoder are attempting to spin a bit of a complement for themselves rather than going for the image of a David being bullied by a Goliath.
I hope I'm write in suggesting that such a phrasing may not the best way of getting support.
This has strong echoes of the Astrolabe/Olson case, only is possibly even more nutty, somewhat better funded and a hell of a lot less excusable on the part of Canada Post.
Legally it should be a walk for Geocoder, but I wouldn't like to make a wager on it.
[+] [-] motti_s|14 years ago|reply
Having said that I hope Geocoder gets help with PR. I'm no PR expert but the fact that this post is not on their front page is the first bad sign. And the media, which always loves a David & Goliath story, apparently hasn't covered this; that's another bad sign. Swaying public opinion to your side is the way to win this, not litigation. If Geocoder lets Canada Post drag them to court they've already lost.
As a Canadian I'm one of the owners of Canada Post and I hope I lose.
[+] [-] liquidcool|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tyrelb|14 years ago|reply
I could imagine how old and stupid the gov't official is who filed that claim. Canada's a broke country, and the latest government budget has cut a tonne of government jobs, slashed R&D credits, etc.
[+] [-] kennywinker|14 years ago|reply
So far there has been absolutely no media attention on this.
[+] [-] canadiancreed|14 years ago|reply
I don't know what this government has against the tech industry in this country, but it must be some serious loathing with all the BS coming down the pipes
[+] [-] earlyriser|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dmix|14 years ago|reply
http://www.census.gov/tiger/tms/gazetteer/zips.txt
[+] [-] twelvechairs|14 years ago|reply
AFAIK In Canada and the UK a postcode gives you an exact address, or pretty close to (around 10-20 properties to each postcode?). In the USA and Australia, a post code just gives you a 'suburb' (hundreds to thousands of properties to each postcode).
[+] [-] skeletonjelly|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] omgtehlion|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adatta02|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maratd|14 years ago|reply
http://www.zip-codes.com/
They do charge a nominal fee, but the data quality is excellent and they have monthly updates.
[+] [-] rmc|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pagekalisedown|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Joakal|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hub_|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmc|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Karunamon|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] canadiancreed|14 years ago|reply
If a country that is more capitalist and copyright mad then we are has no issue providing postal data, that our crown corporation has their panties in a twist is a cruel joke. Just adds another reason why I'd never use Canada Post for anything anyways.
[+] [-] tomwalsham|14 years ago|reply
The usual suspects in these cases are recipes, Geodata and my personal favourite - Premier League Football fixtures. The latter is in the final stages of a European court challenge that is rightly claiming licensing such a simple set of data for thousands of pounds is absurd: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17218968
[+] [-] GiraffeNecktie|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rmc|14 years ago|reply
It depends.
In some places you can copyright a database of facts. In some places you cannot copyright a database of facts. In some places you need to do some 'creative act' to get copyright, some places use a 'sweat of the brow' rule (i.e. that you have expanded some effort, even if it's not creative). It gets coplicated.
[+] [-] chollida1|14 years ago|reply
I'm not sure. But I'd imagine that books like the Guinness book of world records is probably under copyright and its' just a collection of facts.
[+] [-] chollida1|14 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] afhof|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sycr|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hub_|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kennywinker|14 years ago|reply
b) giving it away for free would not actually change anything legally. You can still get sued for copyright infringement even if you don't make any money on it.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] elchief|14 years ago|reply
my cousin works in PR for canada post. i emailed him to get the scoop. will post here when i do.
[+] [-] meiji|14 years ago|reply
That said, Canada Post should have tried to talk before litigation as all this does is make a crown organisation look like a bully in front of Canadians and now the world.
[+] [-] skylan_q|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] AliAdams|14 years ago|reply
I hope I'm write in suggesting that such a phrasing may not the best way of getting support.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] ktizo|14 years ago|reply
Legally it should be a walk for Geocoder, but I wouldn't like to make a wager on it.
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
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