If the fake reviews are indeed the reason why the apps were taken off the store, that does strike me as an inappropriate action. Take down the reviews, yes. But closing the developer account creates a big opportunity to eliminate competition by buying fake reviews for your competitors. There's also nothing developers can do to prevent this since they can't curate or reject reviews from what I know.
That said, other commenters are pointing out a very large revenue figure relative to the popularity of these apps. That smells more like money laundering or fraud. In that scenario, Apple should have been more specific in their communications.
This was talked about by Phillip Shoemaker (head of App Store Review 2009-2016) in this talk[0], where some developers figured out that if they hired marketing firms to commit review fraud on a competitor’s app, their competitor would get terminated because there’s no clear way to actually attribute the fraud to the developer.
I guess the App Store fraud prevention team hasn’t necessarily found a good solution yet.
You can consider, virtually, all reviews fake in any mobile store.
Sometimes I read the reviews and wonder: Who on earth wrote this?
Honestly, it's up to Apple to moderate the reviews and detect review farms.
If posting fake reviews is all it takes to take down my competitors out of the store, it's game on.
> That smells more like money laundering or fraud.
Does Apple get to decide this, and just keep the money, without involving any court of law? Someone mentioned anti-money laundering laws and secrecy, but can that manifest as losing your money, without trial or even being informed that you're accused of anything? That would seem to violate a few constitutional rights.
I've been told this is OK because there is plenty of real competition in this space so developers can vote with their feet and develop on other platforms.
Most likely it is the reason. There were cases of accounts shutdown due to the developers writing reviews from other accounts for their apps on App Store.
All of this is a direct consequence of allowing a gatekeeper in the first place. Every app developer is fractionally guilty of enabling Apple to position themselves as such. I've built a neat little bit of software and I'm sure I could monetize it by wrapping it up as an app. But there is no way that I'm going to give either Apple or Google more power than they already have so the development of the app is a bit slower than it otherwise would have been. But that's fine, releases still happen regularly and I'm having fun building it. If I needed the money to be able to work on it I would have possibly been forced out of this luxury position and I'd absolutely hate it.
All of these self-proclaimed “platforms” need to be regulated: no participation in your own platform (Amazon Basics), or at least no self-preferential treatment, caps on platform usage fees closer to 3-5%, neutral and open source search algorithms, limits on advertising.
I’m a capitalist at heart but this is anti-competitive, it’s closer to feudalism than capitalism.
I've never seen these apps before. I have no idea who this company is. But these icons, names, and type of apps I typically associate with trash behaviour I wish was removed from the app store. Like a Video Joiner Pro that lets you concat two videos, has a 1 week free trial and then $20/month subscription.
Edit: Ahh yup, that's exactly what this is
> A simple and convenient collage maker will help you make cool videos for TikTok and Instagram, Facebook.
> Subscription price $ 3.99 / week, $ 19.99 / year and $ 39.99 / forever
$3.99/week subscription is deliberately predatory. It tries to bait people in thinking "oh it's just $3.99", and then forgetting and now paying $17/month for a photo collage app.
I'm not sad this developer's had their account cancelled.
They tell you what kind of manipulation, in what they hastily tried to unwind when caught... a whole TODO list for scammy apps:
"Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications."
I have used "free" apps that require you to enable a trial but then I forgot to cancel it and ended up paying 3 weeks or so.
Isn't this the way most mobile apps bring their revenue today?
This is very reminiscent of the Dash controversy from a few years ago. In that case Apple even responded with the details[0] of the developer's transgressions, after a huge outcry from the app dev community.
That link is very very far from the end of the Dash story, which includes the developer recording a phone call with Apple. See extensive coverage by Michael Tsai:
It’s hard to get a full picture, but reading the text reviews on Google Play [1] makes it seem like these app are the kind that require subscriptions for no reason and are really aggressive about asking for reviews.
There’s also a big disconnect between the average of the text reviews and the “score only” ones.
Not that I am arguing in favor for how things currently work re Apple's ecosystem, but from a quick look it seems like these apps bait you into paying and the developer is just completely ignoring that part. I think that's what Apple is not fond of.
From the reviews on play store it looks like the typical apps that spit ads like hell. Some complain about the fact they don't work, some are happy with them. Business as usual.
Not sure why they got shutdown, probably the competition really burnt them with the fake reviews.
Every time I read one of these stories, the first thought I have is: "We should be pushing to have PWA be more robust and be positioned as a first class citizen".
My thinking is that would remove the need for a singular approval process. Liberating all developers to build what they want.
Of course security is always a concern. PWA in sandboxes of some sort sounds like the best path forward.
We hired an "app revenue optimization" guy for an hour consultation just to see if we missed something obvious. One thing he suggested was to ask for a review instantly after the paywall. Apparently if you do that, most people will give a 5 star review. We haven't done it since it seems... weird? scammy? but apparently it's a thing that works for maximizing ranking (since reviews are a big influence)
App store is filled with these kind of apps that all look the same. Nothing innovative and filled with ads. They all do the same task and ask for subscription right-away and for your 5-star review in 2 seconds. I feel like you did too much FAFO to me.
From even the authors description, it doesn’t seem like the review process was “automated”. Someone at Apple actually found suspected fraudulent activity and the reasons weren’t just a template.
I don’t have an opinion on whether they were targeted by a third party.
The change.org petition seems like a non sequitur in the article. What are you hoping to achieve by incrementing some counter in the void? Change.org is not the legal system nor is it Apple's customer service system. It is nothing.
If you truly believe you were treated unfairly against Apple, you think they are in breach of contract or violating the law, and they are threatening your livelihood, then sue them. Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek.
> Complaining on the Internet is unlikely to give you the relief you seek.
Unlikely but not impossible. In this case, it's less about the apps or the developer and more about the lack of specificity. If Apple suspend accounts without due process, that affects everyone within that ecosystem, and people should be concerned and should ask questions.
Honestly, after looking through the "apps" they created and what little I could find about reviews for them, I am having a hard time not feeling that Apple was in the right here.
On the other hand, I certainly understand that having your business shut down with little or no notice and right of appeal lies with the "prosecution" can feel crummy.
Many platforms have this issue. While some freezes are deserved, others are false positives or account problems that are difficult to resolve.
Amazon sellers live in dread of this scenario, not only because of the frozen funds, but also the inability to get a clear answer of what policy was broken. Or, Amazon's automated shutdowns make accusations that are impossible to disprove such as review manipulation or running multiple seller accounts. You can see a sample here: https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG
[+] [-] Manuel_D|2 years ago|reply
That said, other commenters are pointing out a very large revenue figure relative to the popularity of these apps. That smells more like money laundering or fraud. In that scenario, Apple should have been more specific in their communications.
[+] [-] judge2020|2 years ago|reply
I guess the App Store fraud prevention team hasn’t necessarily found a good solution yet.
0: https://youtu.be/tJeEuxn9mug?t=22m57s&si=CVfkqSqEULyFTx-8
[+] [-] beeboobaa|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mariopt|2 years ago|reply
Honestly, it's up to Apple to moderate the reviews and detect review farms. If posting fake reviews is all it takes to take down my competitors out of the store, it's game on.
[+] [-] sealeck|2 years ago|reply
Often AML policy prohibits this because it could be constituted as tipping off the offender.
[+] [-] adastra22|2 years ago|reply
In that scenario Apple is highly constrained in what they can say.
[+] [-] SenAnder|2 years ago|reply
Does Apple get to decide this, and just keep the money, without involving any court of law? Someone mentioned anti-money laundering laws and secrecy, but can that manifest as losing your money, without trial or even being informed that you're accused of anything? That would seem to violate a few constitutional rights.
[+] [-] 8ytecoder|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] 2OEH8eoCRo0|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viktorcode|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JanSt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moralestapia|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jacquesm|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baxtr|2 years ago|reply
If you want to be creative and earn money apps are a decent way. Apple/Google take care of a lot of things and you get their reach.
Is it without risks? No, nothing is in life. Is the risk high? Probably not for 99.99% of developers.
[+] [-] ajhurliman|2 years ago|reply
I’m a capitalist at heart but this is anti-competitive, it’s closer to feudalism than capitalism.
[+] [-] mortallywounded|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] madeofpalk|2 years ago|reply
Edit: Ahh yup, that's exactly what this is
> A simple and convenient collage maker will help you make cool videos for TikTok and Instagram, Facebook.
> Subscription price $ 3.99 / week, $ 19.99 / year and $ 39.99 / forever
$3.99/week subscription is deliberately predatory. It tries to bait people in thinking "oh it's just $3.99", and then forgetting and now paying $17/month for a photo collage app.
I'm not sad this developer's had their account cancelled.
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xJlbYZ...
[+] [-] namanyayg|2 years ago|reply
The user forgets about the subscriptions and ends up paying for a while before cancelling
This is probably what apple means by "bait and switch"
Of course I can't say if these app did this or not, I am just saying this is a common practice
[+] [-] Terretta|2 years ago|reply
They tell you what kind of manipulation, in what they hastily tried to unwind when caught... a whole TODO list for scammy apps:
"Within 10 days, we updated each of the six applications: removed all rating requests, revised all payment screens in line with Apple's recommendations, added Intercom for swift user assistance, established a help center with articles on canceling trials, requesting refunds, and implemented subscription management directly within the applications."
[+] [-] moralestapia|2 years ago|reply
It's 6 of them, so more like ~5K USD/month revenue.
I'm sorry that you've never built something meaningful, but that revenue bracket is actually low for a decent app with some marketing going on.
[+] [-] mariopt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deaddodo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woadwarrior01|2 years ago|reply
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12680131
[+] [-] lapcat|2 years ago|reply
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/10/apple-and-kapeli-respond/
https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/05/30/dash-for-ios-returns-to-t...
Dash for macOS continues to this day, though not in the App Store.
[+] [-] strongpigeon|2 years ago|reply
There’s also a big disconnect between the average of the text reviews and the “score only” ones.
[1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sarafan.re...
[+] [-] kojeovo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Oras|2 years ago|reply
This was an update and the app was making money (according to the article).
[+] [-] belltaco|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Namari|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _just7_|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fbdab103|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wahnfrieden|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paradite|2 years ago|reply
https://github.com/paradite/awful-deplatform
[+] [-] mk89|2 years ago|reply
Not sure why they got shutdown, probably the competition really burnt them with the fake reviews.
That's really ugly.
[+] [-] jensenbox|2 years ago|reply
My thinking is that would remove the need for a singular approval process. Liberating all developers to build what they want.
Of course security is always a concern. PWA in sandboxes of some sort sounds like the best path forward.
[+] [-] absqueued|2 years ago|reply
Asking for review after 20 second of app installation? Also most 5 star reveiw looks fake.
[+] [-] kalleboo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dakial1|2 years ago|reply
It doesn't matter what the platform T&Cs say, know your country's laws and you'll avoid unnecessary headaches.
Now thinking about it, it might make sense for some developers to publish their apps in specific countries to mitigate this kind of risk...
[+] [-] runwhileyoucan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RainbowFriends|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scarface_74|2 years ago|reply
I don’t have an opinion on whether they were targeted by a third party.
[+] [-] joeframbach|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bborud|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] otterley|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] megous|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] imdsm|2 years ago|reply
Unlikely but not impossible. In this case, it's less about the apps or the developer and more about the lack of specificity. If Apple suspend accounts without due process, that affects everyone within that ecosystem, and people should be concerned and should ask questions.
[+] [-] jiayo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EwanG|2 years ago|reply
On the other hand, I certainly understand that having your business shut down with little or no notice and right of appeal lies with the "prosecution" can feel crummy.
[+] [-] ilamont|2 years ago|reply
Amazon sellers live in dread of this scenario, not only because of the frozen funds, but also the inability to get a clear answer of what policy was broken. Or, Amazon's automated shutdowns make accusations that are impossible to disprove such as review manipulation or running multiple seller accounts. You can see a sample here: https://twitter.com/AmazonASGTG