I've recently given up on the idea of hiring genius level engineers for jobs that require building CRUD applications 80% of their time. It's a waste of money, a waste of the talent pool, a disservice to the candidate and a future risk to the company as such individuals will inevitably get bored and start over-engineering things to keep their minds occupied. For most engineers (but not all), being able to correctly write create, update, delete and query operations at the database level and API level, and being able to call APIs from the front-end level, with proper error handling, with a decent approach to debugging, is enough.
I’ve been a hiring manager on multiple teams and it’s not that straight forward…Yes, I don’t need John Carmack for my non-Carmack-level technical challenges.
But I’ve seen “ok” programmers perform “adequately” (the project got made to acceptable level) but also seen better programmers work 5x faster (without working 5x the hours, or even more hours at all), be able to mostly self-manage, not need constant qa support to make sure the tickets they set to “done” are actually done and able to solve problems creatively (and not need me to untangle the git repository for them if something goes wrong).
They don’t need brains the size of a mountain but a good/great programmer makes a huge difference (even if enough management can make mediocre programmers work out) even on projects that to me seem technically pedestrian.
I just recently got into Steve Howe. He's considered one of, if not the best guitarist of all time and I came across a quote he had that said something like he wished guitarists would focus on being musicians. Same thing as coders to engineers.
I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary background as well.
So many companies discount non coding skillsets that actually make one an engineer in my opinion.
They hire the butcher instead of the chef and then wonder why it tastes like shit when it's cooked.
You're onto something but it flies in the face of a bit of convention as you're probably not the standard personality that gets into engineering.
I think it's a fine career to go to school, get your BS in whatever technical field you choose, and work as engineer #52354 at Ingersoll Rand, or Boeing, or whomever, and retire after 30 years of being master of your highly complex but perhaps limited domain. That is a very valid definition of an "engineer". These people probably have very fulfilling personal lives that you'd probably see as miserably boring, and that's okay.
I've thought hard lately about this sort of thing, and one thing that seems clear to me is that management likely sees the "standard engineer" is a cost sink where someone like yourself may escape that sort of criticism as your value transcends just engineering and into other departments that directly generate revenue.
For what it's worth, we sound like the same type of engineer but I've worked to try and turn what may be contempt for the stereotype into something more... collaborative.
I’ve lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process. I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language.
It’s not a choice between “the tech interview sucks” and “the job market has many unqualified candidates.” Both can be true, and in fact I think they are related in a market-for-lemons way.
> I've lived both sides of this. I’ve been subjected to the mysterious whims and casual insults of the job-seeking process.
I've grown to learn that it's important to understand that interviewing in particular and job-seeking in general is not an objective and impartial process, and the output is not deterministic or reproducible. You can be hired even when there are objectively better people in the race, and you can be sidelined right on the phone screening even though you are the ideal candidate. It's a crapshoot, and the only people claiming otherwise are motivated by a mix of survivorship bias with a need to avoid recognizing that the process is flawed by nature.
> I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language.
I'm afraid that this take is also a reflection of the cargo cult mentality that plagues recruiting. I personally know FANG engineers with half a dozen years of high-profile work who had to spend weeks training coding golf and algo&data structures trivia before passing the first round of interviews, all because these trivia games bear no resemblance with real world software engineering. In fact, I will go as far as to claim that they serve more as ladder-pulling than actual technical assessments. For example, once I was automatically rejected from a C++ position to work on a desktop app because I wasn't familiar with placement new. This also extends to framework tests. I know a guy who applied for a backend position who was rejected because even though he rolled out a Spring service from scratch that passed all integration tests, the interviewer complained about how the service did not commented the controllers. These are things that takes a single comment in a PR to address. I mean, is adding a comment w challenging technical feat? But somehow some interviewers reject candidates based on this nitpicking.
Candidate seemed like a good fit until I saw something inexplicable, a black tongue, dark as sin, slithering out of the candidate's mouth like a serpent, writhing about as if it had its own mind, and when it touched Tim (the shadow interviewer) he collapsed on the spot as if struck by a lightning. I don't remember how I got back to my seat. 1/10, DO NOT HIRE.
P.S. Please send someone to check up on Tim because he's now back wearing a strangely looking robe with a scythe taller than himself. Yes, the scythe seems real. No, I didn't test.
The problem with Vishnu is he is limited to only having four arms and two ears, which of course limits Vishnu to supporting at most two production systems and, therefore, not being able to handle "web scale."[0]
The people doing hiring make mistakes - it's a bloody difficult thing to do successfully. They also sometimes save you from working in a place with people you wouldn't like much anyhow. They're not really good at coming up with excuses why they didn't select you - it's a crap shoot. Perhaps they get a "not a Trump supporter" impression from you and that makes them feel like you'll never fit comfortably. If you really aren't their kind of person why would one want to work there?
The search for a job always puts me in a depression and I haven't got any answer except that you have to not hope too much about any one job - or be too dismissive of one that doesn't seem quite so amazing. You just cannot tell what will happen - my first boss in my current job turned out to be horrendous and there were not nice people working there and ...... they left the company! I got promoted. How could I predict that? The hiring people cannot predict you either - it's all a bit of a random and uncomfortable process.
When I'm on the other side of the table I've got some priorities:
1. My boss gave me a short bit of advice which is "try to hire nice people." I'd rather work with good developers who can be friendly and help each other and get along without always having to get their way than people who think they are highly productive geniuses and deserve to be in total control.
2. Is the candidate interested in software, or indeed anything. If they are not a bit enthusiastic about software, technology or something relating to the work then how will they learn the things they need to know that aren't on their CV? One should expect people to need to learn and not come "ready made."
I would argue that a good interview process will certainly reject some candidates that would in fact end up performing very well at their job. To really understand if someone is good for the job, it would be very costly in terms of time spent in the interview process, both for the employer and for the prospective employee. It’s a poor allocation of resources by the employer and the candidate wouldn’t stand for it either. To judge a candidate, I wish they could come to our office and they have a full day to work solo on completing a small coding project. It’s just not practical.
I love it! Reminds me a bit of the protagonist of Aphyr's Verb-ing the Technical Interview series, with the parentheses of salt and bough of cloud pine and deep arcane knowledge.
At my last interview, the much younger fellow interviewing me asked me to tell him about myself. I was doing to devote a single sentence to what I did before going to university, as a backdrop for what my motivations have been; this kid cut me off in the first sentence of my interview and told me he wasn't interested in any of that.
It really taught me how much power we can have when we control timing. I was off for the rest of the interview. Even at a good interview, how can someone get to really know you in such a short period of time?
My favourite, slathered with a generous amount of sarcasm gravy, is:
They feel they have candidates who are a bit stronger
coding wise that fit their needs right now that they
want to proceed with.
This said twice.
Once before any interaction at all and the same after an initial meeting when the technical interviewer had not bothered to review any of multiple FOSS projects made available beforehand.
lol... I'd rather not... but that is only because some know where the word came from.
The phrase "Hoist with his own petard" comes from the young "Engineers"/soldiers tasked with breaching a castle door by rigging a bell shape charge, and sometimes getting tangled in the rigging.
Some mistake it as a wonderful title like Dr. or Mayor... others it is a job function like plumbing.
Yet very little has changed people wise in modern technology, and regulatory capture is rather popular. Strangely, these same places often also still charge money for bathroom access.
Engineer, Journeyman, Entrepreneur, and Tinkerer are all often still class specific pejoratives in some circles.
So it's not just me then. Is it implying that software engineer job adverts are fake?
If the problem is oversupply of talent, you'd think salaries should drop as people compete for limited jobs... But that would only be the case if we had a free market.
I feel like to get a job as a software engineer, you have to pretend to be brainwashed. Just act very friendly and optimistic, pretend to be member of a minority group and make sure you tell them that you're fully vaccinated and boosted. Also, use a stage name on your resume instead of your real name and a separate email address.
The way I interpret the poem's message is that sometimes hiring can concentrate on the wrong estimators of ability, ignoring indicators that the applicant can open a can of whoop-ass.
Businesses desire either money printing machines or money printing operators. Generic printer architects are rarely needed because they’re not specialized in printing money fast. Nevertheless postings say they’re looking for architects.
You need to (pretent to) be a conformist which is important to work in a team, especially in larger companies. Ability to accept compromise, work in conditions far from ideal, set aside unimportant differences. Being e. g. anti-vaxxer isn't often problem per-se, but it's a sign the person might be difficult to work with in a team setting.
It's similar with e. g. positive discrimination, I think many people silently object, but not being able to filter it out in business context is a bad sign.
“we’re looking for somebody more technical” = Yes, they are looking for that savior to solve all problems—-problems that hiring manager/hiring group/hiring company want to solve. Yes, where is that person? where is he/she?
"The job posting clearly asks for seven stars and seven candlesticks, yet the candidate only demonstrated five stars and no candlesticks during the interview. Hard Pass."
hliyan|2 years ago
ido|2 years ago
But I’ve seen “ok” programmers perform “adequately” (the project got made to acceptable level) but also seen better programmers work 5x faster (without working 5x the hours, or even more hours at all), be able to mostly self-manage, not need constant qa support to make sure the tickets they set to “done” are actually done and able to solve problems creatively (and not need me to untangle the git repository for them if something goes wrong).
They don’t need brains the size of a mountain but a good/great programmer makes a huge difference (even if enough management can make mediocre programmers work out) even on projects that to me seem technically pedestrian.
tiberriver256|2 years ago
exclusiv|2 years ago
I've come across more technically able programmers than I am. But they aren't better engineers. And a lot of that is because I'm an entrepreneur and have a marketing secondary background as well.
So many companies discount non coding skillsets that actually make one an engineer in my opinion.
They hire the butcher instead of the chef and then wonder why it tastes like shit when it's cooked.
mp05|2 years ago
I think it's a fine career to go to school, get your BS in whatever technical field you choose, and work as engineer #52354 at Ingersoll Rand, or Boeing, or whomever, and retire after 30 years of being master of your highly complex but perhaps limited domain. That is a very valid definition of an "engineer". These people probably have very fulfilling personal lives that you'd probably see as miserably boring, and that's okay.
I've thought hard lately about this sort of thing, and one thing that seems clear to me is that management likely sees the "standard engineer" is a cost sink where someone like yourself may escape that sort of criticism as your value transcends just engineering and into other departments that directly generate revenue.
For what it's worth, we sound like the same type of engineer but I've worked to try and turn what may be contempt for the stereotype into something more... collaborative.
ponector|2 years ago
Real market values more Spring java coders than C++ engineers who work with hardware.
altdataseller|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
uguuo_o|2 years ago
shermantanktop|2 years ago
It’s not a choice between “the tech interview sucks” and “the job market has many unqualified candidates.” Both can be true, and in fact I think they are related in a market-for-lemons way.
rewmie|2 years ago
I've grown to learn that it's important to understand that interviewing in particular and job-seeking in general is not an objective and impartial process, and the output is not deterministic or reproducible. You can be hired even when there are objectively better people in the race, and you can be sidelined right on the phone screening even though you are the ideal candidate. It's a crapshoot, and the only people claiming otherwise are motivated by a mix of survivorship bias with a need to avoid recognizing that the process is flawed by nature.
> I’ve also interviewed and rejected experienced candidates who talked a great game but couldn’t demonstrate the ability to code FizzBuzz-level problems in any language.
I'm afraid that this take is also a reflection of the cargo cult mentality that plagues recruiting. I personally know FANG engineers with half a dozen years of high-profile work who had to spend weeks training coding golf and algo&data structures trivia before passing the first round of interviews, all because these trivia games bear no resemblance with real world software engineering. In fact, I will go as far as to claim that they serve more as ladder-pulling than actual technical assessments. For example, once I was automatically rejected from a C++ position to work on a desktop app because I wasn't familiar with placement new. This also extends to framework tests. I know a guy who applied for a backend position who was rejected because even though he rolled out a Spring service from scratch that passed all integration tests, the interviewer complained about how the service did not commented the controllers. These are things that takes a single comment in a PR to address. I mean, is adding a comment w challenging technical feat? But somehow some interviewers reject candidates based on this nitpicking.
appplication|2 years ago
Aeolun|2 years ago
yongjik|2 years ago
P.S. Please send someone to check up on Tim because he's now back wearing a strangely looking robe with a scythe taller than himself. Yes, the scythe seems real. No, I didn't test.
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
OldGuyInTheClub|2 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narasimha
AdieuToLogic|2 years ago
0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2F-DItXtZs
t43562|2 years ago
The search for a job always puts me in a depression and I haven't got any answer except that you have to not hope too much about any one job - or be too dismissive of one that doesn't seem quite so amazing. You just cannot tell what will happen - my first boss in my current job turned out to be horrendous and there were not nice people working there and ...... they left the company! I got promoted. How could I predict that? The hiring people cannot predict you either - it's all a bit of a random and uncomfortable process.
When I'm on the other side of the table I've got some priorities:
1. My boss gave me a short bit of advice which is "try to hire nice people." I'd rather work with good developers who can be friendly and help each other and get along without always having to get their way than people who think they are highly productive geniuses and deserve to be in total control.
2. Is the candidate interested in software, or indeed anything. If they are not a bit enthusiastic about software, technology or something relating to the work then how will they learn the things they need to know that aren't on their CV? One should expect people to need to learn and not come "ready made."
LaGrange|2 years ago
I like to be able to afford my rent. Some food sometimes, as a treat.
rosquillas|2 years ago
mapasj|2 years ago
quickthrower2|2 years ago
Ah..... you could have just said it wasn't a Python position. Are you after a crustacean or a gopher?
clbrmbr|2 years ago
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
Tcepsa|2 years ago
teddyh|2 years ago
madcocomo|2 years ago
henriquez|2 years ago
digitalsushi|2 years ago
It really taught me how much power we can have when we control timing. I was off for the rest of the interview. Even at a good interview, how can someone get to really know you in such a short period of time?
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
unknown|2 years ago
[deleted]
hschne|2 years ago
brianpan|2 years ago
It's fine. It's normal. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.
AdieuToLogic|2 years ago
Once before any interaction at all and the same after an initial meeting when the technical interviewer had not bothered to review any of multiple FOSS projects made available beforehand.
rereasonable|2 years ago
Joel_Mckay|2 years ago
The phrase "Hoist with his own petard" comes from the young "Engineers"/soldiers tasked with breaching a castle door by rigging a bell shape charge, and sometimes getting tangled in the rigging.
Some mistake it as a wonderful title like Dr. or Mayor... others it is a job function like plumbing.
Yet very little has changed people wise in modern technology, and regulatory capture is rather popular. Strangely, these same places often also still charge money for bathroom access.
Engineer, Journeyman, Entrepreneur, and Tinkerer are all often still class specific pejoratives in some circles.
http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidit...
bregma|2 years ago
manueljose46567|2 years ago
[deleted]
jongjong|2 years ago
If the problem is oversupply of talent, you'd think salaries should drop as people compete for limited jobs... But that would only be the case if we had a free market.
I feel like to get a job as a software engineer, you have to pretend to be brainwashed. Just act very friendly and optimistic, pretend to be member of a minority group and make sure you tell them that you're fully vaccinated and boosted. Also, use a stage name on your resume instead of your real name and a separate email address.
kazinator|2 years ago
numpad0|2 years ago
The_Colonel|2 years ago
It's similar with e. g. positive discrimination, I think many people silently object, but not being able to filter it out in business context is a bad sign.
raincom|2 years ago
082349872349872|2 years ago
nine_k|2 years ago