The flipside of these cat bans is that people suddenly discover they have a rodent problem that they didn't realize before. Mice start appearing everywhere, invading homes, chewing on wires, boring holes into buildings, etc...
My aunt and uncle are ornithologists. They observe feral cats as often the number one threat to native species populations in some areas, and have been instrumental in efforts to remove feral cats from Gran Canaria and other islands.
I've read multiple times that there've been discussions in a few places around the world to ban cats, or certain breeding of cats to save wildlife, or birds specifically. But I haven't heard any law become real, anyone?
Unfortunately, no me neither. I think this issue extends beyond cats, it's the uncontrolled breeding of animals, which imo leads to all sorts of abuse.
I find it amazing that anyone can decide I'm going to buy a breeding pair of cats with the end goal of making money.
We need to phase out cats and dogs completely. This saddens me deeply because I love my dog but the damage these animals do to the environment is so large I don't think I can truly fathom.
We can do this slowly, first pets needs to be desexed. For cats there's no exception. For dogs the exception would be breeding working dogs, or therapy/guide dogs. With cats they must be kept in doors at all times. These laws should extend to larger animals like horses.
In Australia we have a huge problem with horses and camels. But the public do not support culls of horses, even if it's for their own benefit (eg to stop them from starving in winter). But the horse racing industry is huge here, they've got clout and political pressure.
Uncontrolled breeding of animals for human enjoyment is amoral. Animal companionship is of course the exception but this comes with issues.
This is why I am against feeding wild cats (usually by well-intentioned people). They are ruthless predators and enough of them are around.
Cats can slaughter bird colonies (though somehow they never slaughter the ugly pigeons, nor the invasive parrots in the area I live in) so they are best left to themselves instead of going the "beautiful kitty that is starving" way and artificially growing their population.
Finally, I have a stray/rescue cat at home that stays at home (not interested in going outside), just in case someone though I was promoting the dog league.
> This is why I am against feeding wild cats (usually by well-intentioned people). They are ruthless predators and enough of them are around.
Wouldn't feeding them reduce the amount they need to kill to feed themselves? I know of at least one cat colony that has a caretaker that feeds them, they have all been catch and release spayed/neutered so the colony can't grow. They try to get adoptions for some of them but the only other alternative is to kill them.
No kidding. Where I live, we had many different kinds of small birds and bunnies in our yard. A couple of years ago, 2 Neighbors got a cat and they let them out. After 6 months, no birds and no rabbits. Now all I see are crows and an occasional Blue Jay. All the small song birds are gone.
IMO, there should be a $2000 USD tax per year on owning cats. If you do not register the cat, you get a hefty fine. Also dog catchers should be allowed to pick up cats roaming outside.
> Also dog catchers should be allowed to pick up cats roaming outside.
Many places have TNR programs (Trap, Neuter, Return), at the very least. Sure, that doesn't solve the problem of the existing cats killing local wildlife, but it at least ensures they won't continue to reproduce.
The problem with catching and keeping all cats (and dogs, really) is that most places just don't have the shelter space for them. Euthanasia for stray animals has become unpopular in many places (a stance I support and agree with), so it boils down to balancing how many animals you can get adopted vs. how much shelter space you have vs. how many stray animals there are out there.
In the past few years we've adopted three cats from our local SPCA shelter, that were found as strays. I wish every cat out there had the opportunity to live in a nice home without needing to kill the local wildlife for food.
I don’t know why it happened in your neighbourhood but when I lived in Monschau, I had a Freiganger and there were at least five other cats outdoor all the time. We had plenty of birds. But we took care of our gardens so there were so many insects. Bees, wasps, hornets, flies, mosquitoes of various kinds, ants, spiders, occasional hummingbird, everything. Not many rats. Some mice. Those cats kill a ton of mice.
Now I live in the city. No cats but rats and people walking dogs dumping on the sidewalk.
I take a suburb with cats.
Edit: of course, I don’t deny that cats kill a staggering number of birds.
Hard to believe that this would be caused by two cats. I live in a village (south east Germany) which had plenty of free-roaming and stray cats for decades (or rather, centuries I'd guess) and wildlife seems to manage just fine.
cats is basically the only predator in all those places where until humans came a range of predators had been. The Nature is a cruel machine where everybody becomes old and ill and at that stage majority falls prey to predator (or somebody needs to take care of the carcass otherwise). Like billions of birds end their lifecycle in a year. Human civilization disturbs or breaks the ecosystems, decimating or completely eliminating species, pushes predators out. Humans also bring rats with them (beside many other things rats raid the bird nests for eggs decimating the bird population). In that picture I see the cats as corrective factor, controlling rats and carrying the role of predators pushed out by civilization.
Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm, particularly in e.g. the UK) and the United States (and now Australia), though perhaps this is just down to different native fauna.
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm
That is because even in the UK, small cats have been there for thousands of years. I just heard about a Scottish wild cat being introduced.
Small Cats in Australia and the Americas have only been there for about 400 years. Wildlife was unable to adapt quick enough. so a lot of extinctions happened, which I am sure cats helped out. New Zealand is a good case showing damage cats (and rats) did.
That doesn't mean that every bird or squirrel killed by a cat was unable to reproduce and raise healthy offspring.
Given that we are already facing falling population and widespread extinction of just about every category of animal, and native ecosystems the world over are under threat from invasives of some kind, maybe we shouldn't be adding pressure to that.
I'm sympathetic, I grew up with outdoor cats and they clearly enjoy roaming free, but is that worth it?
> Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time.
The human population in UK has increased more than 10x since then, if cat population increased accordingly there are way more cats killing things today than back then.
The more humans around the more careful we have to be about our impact on the environment, so we have to be 10 times as careful today as we used to be historically.
I don't think the world would be a very ecologically diverse place if all continents were as domesticated as Europe. When we argue that Africa, Asia and South America should protect large predators, I think it rings hollow if we have no remorse and no restoration projects.
Whatever equilibrium we've reached in Europe might need to change with more wild predators eating birds and cats.
The UK is more resistant to change than even we Americans are (except for units of measurement).
Just because something has been one way for a long time doesn’t mean it’s good. Cats kill lots of native wild animals, and whether those animal populations would be similar without them is entirely beside the point. In the same way it is inhumane to have dogs rip foxes apart for sport, it is inhumane to allow pet cats to do so too.
That said, good luck stopping it. Feral breeding cat populations would be at best difficult to entirely eradicate.
Some bird populations are invasive. European starlings aren't from North America but there is estimated over 100 million. Feral pigeons too. So I only see it as a problem for threatened or endangered species of bird. Also as a tangent, some birds eat cats! Owls, hawks, birds of prey will absolutely snipe cats!
[+] [-] atmavatar|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jandrese|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nerdponx|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ProxCoques|2 years ago|reply
https://brb.sprep.org/sites/default/files/2023-05/A_Review_o...
[+] [-] defrost|2 years ago|reply
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-29/feral-cat-management-...
https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/felixer,-the-grooming-trap,-...
Cat specific, with photographic record of every animal targeted to verify working as expected.
[+] [-] taimurkazmi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] isilofi|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] manmal|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] m3kw9|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] cloths|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway87651|2 years ago|reply
https://www.cityservices.act.gov.au/pets-and-wildlife/domest...
[+] [-] williamcotton|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] recursive|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] throwaway290|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] watwut|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greazy|2 years ago|reply
I find it amazing that anyone can decide I'm going to buy a breeding pair of cats with the end goal of making money.
We need to phase out cats and dogs completely. This saddens me deeply because I love my dog but the damage these animals do to the environment is so large I don't think I can truly fathom.
We can do this slowly, first pets needs to be desexed. For cats there's no exception. For dogs the exception would be breeding working dogs, or therapy/guide dogs. With cats they must be kept in doors at all times. These laws should extend to larger animals like horses.
In Australia we have a huge problem with horses and camels. But the public do not support culls of horses, even if it's for their own benefit (eg to stop them from starving in winter). But the horse racing industry is huge here, they've got clout and political pressure.
Uncontrolled breeding of animals for human enjoyment is amoral. Animal companionship is of course the exception but this comes with issues.
[+] [-] BrandoElFollito|2 years ago|reply
Cats can slaughter bird colonies (though somehow they never slaughter the ugly pigeons, nor the invasive parrots in the area I live in) so they are best left to themselves instead of going the "beautiful kitty that is starving" way and artificially growing their population.
Finally, I have a stray/rescue cat at home that stays at home (not interested in going outside), just in case someone though I was promoting the dog league.
[+] [-] joecool1029|2 years ago|reply
Wouldn't feeding them reduce the amount they need to kill to feed themselves? I know of at least one cat colony that has a caretaker that feeds them, they have all been catch and release spayed/neutered so the colony can't grow. They try to get adoptions for some of them but the only other alternative is to kill them.
[+] [-] marojejian|2 years ago|reply
https://www.science.org/content/article/hello-kitty-goodbye-...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-develop...
[+] [-] drewcoo|2 years ago|reply
Says the human . . .
[+] [-] r00fus|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pengaru|2 years ago|reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt-pB1R64mI
[+] [-] heisenbit|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmclnx|2 years ago|reply
IMO, there should be a $2000 USD tax per year on owning cats. If you do not register the cat, you get a hefty fine. Also dog catchers should be allowed to pick up cats roaming outside.
[+] [-] kelnos|2 years ago|reply
Many places have TNR programs (Trap, Neuter, Return), at the very least. Sure, that doesn't solve the problem of the existing cats killing local wildlife, but it at least ensures they won't continue to reproduce.
The problem with catching and keeping all cats (and dogs, really) is that most places just don't have the shelter space for them. Euthanasia for stray animals has become unpopular in many places (a stance I support and agree with), so it boils down to balancing how many animals you can get adopted vs. how much shelter space you have vs. how many stray animals there are out there.
In the past few years we've adopted three cats from our local SPCA shelter, that were found as strays. I wish every cat out there had the opportunity to live in a nice home without needing to kill the local wildlife for food.
[+] [-] rad_gruchalski|2 years ago|reply
Now I live in the city. No cats but rats and people walking dogs dumping on the sidewalk.
I take a suburb with cats.
Edit: of course, I don’t deny that cats kill a staggering number of birds.
[+] [-] flohofwoe|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] siliconwrath|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Foxhuls|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrewstuart|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trhway|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tiku|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] greazy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] croes|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lol768|2 years ago|reply
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
Research in the UK has suggested cats are mostly preying on the "doomed surplus": https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X....
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
[+] [-] jmclnx|2 years ago|reply
That is because even in the UK, small cats have been there for thousands of years. I just heard about a Scottish wild cat being introduced.
Small Cats in Australia and the Americas have only been there for about 400 years. Wildlife was unable to adapt quick enough. so a lot of extinctions happened, which I am sure cats helped out. New Zealand is a good case showing damage cats (and rats) did.
[+] [-] nerdponx|2 years ago|reply
Given that we are already facing falling population and widespread extinction of just about every category of animal, and native ecosystems the world over are under threat from invasives of some kind, maybe we shouldn't be adding pressure to that.
I'm sympathetic, I grew up with outdoor cats and they clearly enjoy roaming free, but is that worth it?
[+] [-] Jensson|2 years ago|reply
The human population in UK has increased more than 10x since then, if cat population increased accordingly there are way more cats killing things today than back then.
The more humans around the more careful we have to be about our impact on the environment, so we have to be 10 times as careful today as we used to be historically.
[+] [-] potatopatch|2 years ago|reply
Whatever equilibrium we've reached in Europe might need to change with more wild predators eating birds and cats.
[+] [-] pvg|2 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37449477
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] mattmaroon|2 years ago|reply
Just because something has been one way for a long time doesn’t mean it’s good. Cats kill lots of native wild animals, and whether those animal populations would be similar without them is entirely beside the point. In the same way it is inhumane to have dogs rip foxes apart for sport, it is inhumane to allow pet cats to do so too.
That said, good luck stopping it. Feral breeding cat populations would be at best difficult to entirely eradicate.
[+] [-] gosub100|2 years ago|reply