[ryanklee]

> cannot reason anybody out of something that they want to believe.

Especially when your own reasons are not the slam dunk you think they are.

[__loam]

Both sides of this debate are competing to see who can post the most snide comments to the other.

[ryanklee]

There is a ton of arrogance everywhere on this subject. Anyone who doesn't see how complicated and nuanced and difficult figuring out what the hell is going on here really needs to sit down and think a little more carefully. There's absolutely no room for out-of-hand dismissal. We are all babes in the woods right now. We need each other, like always.