The idea of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc. including a network card strikes me as a solution in search of a problem. Unless you are the company marketing these devices and the problem is "how can start getting in on the user data collection game".
If the machine had an open API that I could control and utilize entirely locally, I can see (minor) advantages to most of these. Really anything that is a somewhat highish power load and only needs to run very intermittently, having a way to control it with home automation (which requires some kind of wireless connection), could be of some use.
THe problem is that they are including this network connectivity in a completely closed down way where you, the user, do not actually have any control over what is sent to or from the device. that kind of connection I agree is worse than useless: actively malicious and bad, and I would pay extra to not have it.
I can't imagine there's much value in LG knowing how often I wash my clothes.
On the other hand, it's nice to get a notification when the cycle is done if I'm on the other side of the house. Refrigerator sending a notification to my phone if the door isn't closed could come in handy some day too.
It's frequently spoken about all kinds of devices that they are mining data.
I'm actually really curious, as someone far away, what does this actually look like?
Are PMs at these companies putting data collection stuff into their roadmaps "just in case," or is this a directive that comes from the higher ups with a specific business plan for how they are going to monetize the data? How does someone actually buy washing machine data? Are they selling the data? If so, where, how, to whom? Do I approach LG or does LG approach me? Are the numbers of how much money these companies are making on data actually real? Is there an eBay for washing machine data? Is it an API that streams it out in real time that they expose or do they just give you a 100GB CSV?
A washing machine that is networked can be scheduled to run automatically when electricity prices are low, or when your local solar panels are at full production.
Unfortunately, it can also be used to pipe data from your TV that you intentionally have not hooked up to the internet because you don’t trust the shady things certain TV manufacturers do with your data.
I wish that I could feed my washer and dryer into my home automation system, but I can’t. I want to do this so I know whether the laundry will get stinky or not. Right now I measure the power consumption and have a sensor on the door of my washer and dryer. That works, but imagine if I could just get an mqtt stream of events! I will never connect an appliance like that to my network in the real world, but I can dream!
Far from it, for different reasons. All appliances will be network connected in the future as the world electricity supply shifts to renewables. It simply doesn't matter if my e.g. dishwasher switches on at 10PM when I press the button, just that it's ready the next morning. But it matters if it runs when electricity is expensive because of low wind or cheap because of high wind. Or if there's a lot of sun during the day or not. This will not need gigabytes of data though.
edit: should've read more, someone already mentioned it in the thread
but while I am here, another good example is for instance heating. I visited friends in their small mountain house recently and was wondering how they got it warm so quickly because they just got there. They said, oh we have a new oven, we switched it on remotely when we were on our way driving.
I have an app install on my phone for my Siemens dish washing machine.
Things that are genuinely useful about it:
- It tells me when a cycle has finished.
- It keeps count of used tablets and I can customize the count at which it reminds me that I need to get new ones.
- It tells me when I should do a "cleaning cycle", i.e. that I should run an empty load in "Machine Care" mode to avoid it starting to get odours. However, a bit annoying about this it only tells me as I turn on the dishwasher, i.e. just as I've finished loading it and am about to run it, it would be much better if it told me at the end of the previous cycle.
- I can schedule a cycle to begin/end at a particular time.
Mildly useful:
- I can see how much time is left of the cycle (it's a built-in unit meaning I can't see any display without opening it).
- From the app I can choose to "pause" the cycle for a little, this could be useful when watching TV or doing some other activity where you want quiet until later.
- I can use the app to select the desired mode and begin a cycle, however, this is only barely useful as I can't use the app until I press the power button on the dishwasher (however, not that relevant since if there's no tablet insert, there is no way it could possibly be started remotely anyway).
If there is no significant extra cost, I would like my next clothes washing machine to be able to send me a push notification when its cycle is done.
A smart oven would also potentially be nice in that you can remotely turn on the oven from a place like your office or at a particular time so that it's already heated by the time you get home, or you can tell it turn off after a timer.
I would definitely prefer if it was an open platform, but in truth, as a founder in small startup who also has young kids, I don't have the time right now to work out how to set up custom automations.
My new Samsung induction oven has an app. That app doesn’t do the only functionality I could ever care about - turn it on to preheat! Best it does is allow you to set the temp and bake/broil etc, but then you have to physically press start on the oven. What a silly waste of an app.
> The idea of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc. including a network card strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.
There are tons of problems that networking these solves. Maybe minor to most people, but convenience is key.
A common example for me: If I am packing for a trip last minute and doing laundry, I don’t want to have to keep going down two flights to check if my washer or dryer is done, disrupting what I am doing.
But I don’t like the idea of everything being connected, so I will live with the problem.
I'm wondering - are there developers who think that this functionality is something any user actually needs? Or is it the higher-up part of the company pushing on "we need internet connectivity in every appliance we put out and we need it by yesterday"?
It's worse than a "solution in search of a problem." It's a problem in and of itself. Networked appliances almost always need some remote back-end to talk to. But companies don't have much incentive to maintain those back-ends for the 10-year+ life of a washing machine, coffee maker, refrigerator, etc.
So you end up in at least one of two situations: Either you lose functionality over time as companies deprecate those back-ends even though the hardware is still good (i.e., forced obsolescence leading to e-waste), and/or your outdated device ends up being a target for botnets to propagate themselves.
I am a practical person and I'm not above trading convenience for security, but I have quite a few "smart" devices at home that endlessly blink waiting for me to connect them to a network as I utterly see no point in that.
If the execution wasn't shit, I would love it. It's not important, but I would find it fun if I could control/get data from these devices over network.
I'd pcap a bunch of the traffic -- in particular the DNS requests -- that will tell you where it is connecting. Hopefully it is using TLS, and then the SNI headers can give you more information.
I run a local DNS resolver and so I capture all the lookup responses so that I can turn IP addresses back into names. Depending on what firewall/router you have, you may be able to log connections. I use a locally hosted free Gravwell process to grab these logs and correlate with the DNS queries to find which systems are talking to where. If your home network is like mine, then there are probably a bunch of systems that you want to block from talking outside.
It may be worth sandboxing it into a dedicated network then analyze the traffic and see what it does in detail, for example if it accesses the local network then relays something outside, or if it opens ports waiting for connections, etc.
I wonder if merely downloading so much data and storing it into its internal flash could wear it in a short time forcing the user to call for repair.
Does it stop functioning intermittently? I've seen cases of devices in the middle of a failed OTA, and the device keeps requesting the OTA again. If it's going on and offline often, this might the case.
Have you tried tcpdump’ing its payload on your router? If it’s plain text it should be obvious what it’s doing. If it isn’t you can still sniff which domains it’s connecting to from SNI ClietnHello message but payload will be encrypted. You can still get to it but that would require some decent soldering and hw debugging skills…
If you have a openwrt router than it should be quite simple. Redirect the traffic from the ip of the washing machine to a machine that has mitmproxy installed (using iptables). Hopefully the protocol is https and it doesn't have some form of certificate pinning. That should get you the raw requests/responses.
The next post in that thread is even weirder. Apparently, you can use the Wi-Fi functionality to.. "download cycles"? Like, the machine itself includes some presets for certain washing procedures/cycles, and the app provides additional ones. But the question is *why?* Why didn't they just include them on the washing machine's hardware? It's not like you'd need updates for these cycles - imagine needing to download Denim Wash 1.4 or something.
now that would be something. imagine future washing instructions on your clothes label stating which version of a wash cycle is required.
on the other hand, some way to tell the washing machine what clothes are inside by letting it scan the labels so that it can automatically pick the right cycle, now that would be useful.
I put all these 'smart' devices on separate network (wifi) that has adguard home as resolver. It makes ir relatively easy to identify what is which device talking to and even block it.
It would be mildly useful to get alerts when a load is done. I know I've forgotten about laundry in the washer for a while that I wouldn't have minded a notification on my phone that it was done. Or if some maintenance needed to be done, a reminder. Or one could schedule usage during certain hours to minimize energy usage.
I had basically hooked up the washer to wifi when we first got it and forgot about it. The thing is, the washer doesn't let you disconnect the wifi after it's configured. It only allows you to switch to a different wifi and only if that wifi has internet.
I have LG Washer connected to my network. The network stack on my model is terrible and would constantly fail after period of time receiving multicast packets from other devices. I had to segment it on to it's own SSID/VLAN/IP Address and ensure no other traffic reached it. It has been stable since then.
Mine has only used 3MB over the last month, which seems low.
As to why. It is connected to home automation system and will announce on Sonos when the wash (or dry) is complete. I also had it connected to LEDs on light switch that would blink when clothes were in the machines waiting to get moved.
I have a Bosch induction cooktop with wifi, and a Bosch oven without wifi. The cooktop has updated its firmware automatically a few times, and I have no idea why. The oven's timer always froze when it attempted to count down past 1:01. It was fixed by a service person who drove over and replaced the entire controller board.
So much wrong with this situation: Why does an oven need a computer in the first place? How can you release software for an oven where the timer doesn't work? How is it economical to make an unflashable controller board? Etc.
BTW, I got a look at the board, and turns out Bosch doesn't even make its own oven controllers.
I was looking forward to being able to remotely control aspects of the dryer, but disappointed that my LG only allows control if the button is physically pushed to enable remote (and it only lets you do one remote instruction before it requires being pressed again)
I had imagined I could trigger a dryer cycle while I was away, or just wanted to run a couple cycles before I had a chance to actually empty it. Sadly that requires physical coordination of remembering to set it beforehand and then only getting one spin with it.
The only beneficial thing I get is the notification that a cycle is done, or perhaps an error (haven't got one yet)
I can see some data collection (after it is announced and agreed upon) being useful. How hot was the water coming in? How much water did this cycle use? Was the cycle stopped? Was it stopped and restarted, and if so, when? (So as to tell between "I missed that sock" and "I wanted to add some liquid a quarter of the way through") What time of day am I being used? Perhaps even a "you did a load two days ago and now it is getting mildewy" alarm.
Some data could actually be valuable for product design and iteration. That sounds like a few kilobytes per month.
Probably a much simpler answer. The programmers who work on a washing machine are probably inexperienced low wage disempowered help. And there’s an innocent rx/tx loop for a home grown notification system and noone on the team knows better or knows how to use a packet sniffer or perf analyzer.
Never attribute to malfeasance what incompetence can explain.
Put a packet sniffer on it. Bet it doesn’t use https, that costs extra for microcontrollers. Dollars to doughnuts it’s a teenager on a road trip.
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
There is no legitimate reason for that. Your washing machine is infected and part of a bot net. Contact LG and get them to help you reset and secure it. You might also want to take a look at all of your devices on your home internet. It seems attackers have gotten into your internal network.
I bought a Bluetooth-connectible blood pressure measuring device. The first app was decent, the second app? Several screens were behind "Upgrade to premium to unlock this feature". And then it started gamifying, "measure your blood pressure every day to earn points", redeemable for... fucking what?
[+] [-] paradox242|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MostlyStable|2 years ago|reply
THe problem is that they are including this network connectivity in a completely closed down way where you, the user, do not actually have any control over what is sent to or from the device. that kind of connection I agree is worse than useless: actively malicious and bad, and I would pay extra to not have it.
[+] [-] rale00|2 years ago|reply
On the other hand, it's nice to get a notification when the cycle is done if I'm on the other side of the house. Refrigerator sending a notification to my phone if the door isn't closed could come in handy some day too.
[+] [-] mlsu|2 years ago|reply
I'm actually really curious, as someone far away, what does this actually look like?
Are PMs at these companies putting data collection stuff into their roadmaps "just in case," or is this a directive that comes from the higher ups with a specific business plan for how they are going to monetize the data? How does someone actually buy washing machine data? Are they selling the data? If so, where, how, to whom? Do I approach LG or does LG approach me? Are the numbers of how much money these companies are making on data actually real? Is there an eBay for washing machine data? Is it an API that streams it out in real time that they expose or do they just give you a 100GB CSV?
So many questions. So many.
[+] [-] anonuser123456|2 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, it can also be used to pipe data from your TV that you intentionally have not hooked up to the internet because you don’t trust the shady things certain TV manufacturers do with your data.
[+] [-] op00to|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] locallost|2 years ago|reply
edit: should've read more, someone already mentioned it in the thread
but while I am here, another good example is for instance heating. I visited friends in their small mountain house recently and was wondering how they got it warm so quickly because they just got there. They said, oh we have a new oven, we switched it on remotely when we were on our way driving.
[+] [-] jonathanlydall|2 years ago|reply
Things that are genuinely useful about it:
- It tells me when a cycle has finished.
- It keeps count of used tablets and I can customize the count at which it reminds me that I need to get new ones.
- It tells me when I should do a "cleaning cycle", i.e. that I should run an empty load in "Machine Care" mode to avoid it starting to get odours. However, a bit annoying about this it only tells me as I turn on the dishwasher, i.e. just as I've finished loading it and am about to run it, it would be much better if it told me at the end of the previous cycle.
- I can schedule a cycle to begin/end at a particular time.
Mildly useful:
- I can see how much time is left of the cycle (it's a built-in unit meaning I can't see any display without opening it).
- From the app I can choose to "pause" the cycle for a little, this could be useful when watching TV or doing some other activity where you want quiet until later.
- I can use the app to select the desired mode and begin a cycle, however, this is only barely useful as I can't use the app until I press the power button on the dishwasher (however, not that relevant since if there's no tablet insert, there is no way it could possibly be started remotely anyway).
If there is no significant extra cost, I would like my next clothes washing machine to be able to send me a push notification when its cycle is done.
A smart oven would also potentially be nice in that you can remotely turn on the oven from a place like your office or at a particular time so that it's already heated by the time you get home, or you can tell it turn off after a timer.
I would definitely prefer if it was an open platform, but in truth, as a founder in small startup who also has young kids, I don't have the time right now to work out how to set up custom automations.
[+] [-] voisin|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LeafItAlone|2 years ago|reply
There are tons of problems that networking these solves. Maybe minor to most people, but convenience is key.
A common example for me: If I am packing for a trip last minute and doing laundry, I don’t want to have to keep going down two flights to check if my washer or dryer is done, disrupting what I am doing.
But I don’t like the idea of everything being connected, so I will live with the problem.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tavavex|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_snooze|2 years ago|reply
So you end up in at least one of two situations: Either you lose functionality over time as companies deprecate those back-ends even though the hardware is still good (i.e., forced obsolescence leading to e-waste), and/or your outdated device ends up being a target for botnets to propagate themselves.
IoT is such a damn scam in the long-term.
[+] [-] gpderetta|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yreg|2 years ago|reply
The execution, however, is almost always shit.
[+] [-] Johnie|2 years ago|reply
* Smart Air Filter
* Smart Air Fryer
* Smart Meat Thermometer
* Smart Sous Vide
* Smart Coffee Maker
* Smart Blinds
[+] [-] sys_64738|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Johnie|2 years ago|reply
If anyone has any ideas on how to investigate this, I'm open to ideas. As of now, I've just blocked the internet access.
[+] [-] pjsg|2 years ago|reply
I run a local DNS resolver and so I capture all the lookup responses so that I can turn IP addresses back into names. Depending on what firewall/router you have, you may be able to log connections. I use a locally hosted free Gravwell process to grab these logs and correlate with the DNS queries to find which systems are talking to where. If your home network is like mine, then there are probably a bunch of systems that you want to block from talking outside.
[+] [-] squarefoot|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] maerF0x0|2 years ago|reply
Depending on the details in each of the layers[1] you might be able to spoof traffic towards it to trick it things.
you may need to try MITM the certs/key exchange stuff[2], hopefully they have a broken implementation that doesnt validate signatures etc.
[1]: https://www.bmc.com/blogs/osi-model-7-layers/
[2]: first promising hit when i googled: https://gbhackers.com/mitm-attack-https-connection-ssl-strip...
[+] [-] omgmajk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coupdejarnac|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dilyevsky|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chucklenorris|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SushiHippie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tavavex|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] em-bee|2 years ago|reply
on the other hand, some way to tell the washing machine what clothes are inside by letting it scan the labels so that it can automatically pick the right cycle, now that would be useful.
[+] [-] neurostimulant|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blevinstein|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samsk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cf100clunk|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beretguy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] driscoll42|2 years ago|reply
But these are not super important use cases.
[+] [-] Johnie|2 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/Johnie/status/1744795720480411927
I had basically hooked up the washer to wifi when we first got it and forgot about it. The thing is, the washer doesn't let you disconnect the wifi after it's configured. It only allows you to switch to a different wifi and only if that wifi has internet.
[+] [-] runjake|2 years ago|reply
https://gist.github.com/Jonathan727/9ef58e7a64806d1e01112b20...
[+] [-] mleo|2 years ago|reply
Mine has only used 3MB over the last month, which seems low.
As to why. It is connected to home automation system and will announce on Sonos when the wash (or dry) is complete. I also had it connected to LEDs on light switch that would blink when clothes were in the machines waiting to get moved.
[+] [-] morkalork|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] publicarray|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wrs|2 years ago|reply
So much wrong with this situation: Why does an oven need a computer in the first place? How can you release software for an oven where the timer doesn't work? How is it economical to make an unflashable controller board? Etc.
BTW, I got a look at the board, and turns out Bosch doesn't even make its own oven controllers.
[+] [-] wlesieutre|2 years ago|reply
I just assumed it came about from some manager saying "You know what washing machines need? An app."
[+] [-] mike503|2 years ago|reply
I had imagined I could trigger a dryer cycle while I was away, or just wanted to run a couple cycles before I had a chance to actually empty it. Sadly that requires physical coordination of remembering to set it beforehand and then only getting one spin with it.
The only beneficial thing I get is the notification that a cycle is done, or perhaps an error (haven't got one yet)
[+] [-] at_a_remove|2 years ago|reply
Some data could actually be valuable for product design and iteration. That sounds like a few kilobytes per month.
[+] [-] jaybeavers|2 years ago|reply
Never attribute to malfeasance what incompetence can explain.
Put a packet sniffer on it. Bet it doesn’t use https, that costs extra for microcontrollers. Dollars to doughnuts it’s a teenager on a road trip.
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
[+] [-] jacknews|2 years ago|reply
Why is his machine using so much, are there any comments? A thread? Or is this just thrown out there for likes?
[+] [-] 0x00_NULL|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netsharc|2 years ago|reply
Fuck youuuuu, Omron!
[+] [-] mkl|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ben_w|2 years ago|reply
So, who wants to bet it turns out the NSA really is spying on us with microphones in our washing machines?
[+] [-] metaltyphoon|2 years ago|reply