I get why Brittany's mad: Cloudflare appears to be handling this about as bad as possible. But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either.
I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details do we need to handle with any severance, and where do I send my laptop." And then, as is tradition, go get day drunk.
I get that this type of situation is emotionally difficult, but advice for anyone willing to take it: if the point is getting information, a confrontational "you can't do this to me" type tone is probably less helpful than a curious "you owe me nothing but if you want to brighten my day a little here's what I'm curious about" attitude.
> But those two HR randos aren't gonna have anything worthwhile to say, either.
companies explicitly construct situations like this such that the person being screwed doesn't have access to anyone making a decision, just other peons implementing them.
People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by her manager. Now her investment is bogus and it sounds like she will not be compensated at all for it? I mean you're advocating she asks for compensation, when they tell her no? Then what?
Not sure who you are but you're delusional if you think this is ok.
Nah, she did well by frustrating the process. Next time they’ll think twice before gaslighting and humiliating an employee. Telling her she was getting fired due to her own performance is just that. In my books she did well, hope she starts a gig on her own to never have to deal with NPCs such as those two. They feed on people’s misery.
Yes, this would be the optimal vulcan way to take this. In the human world, peoples stake a chunk of their identity with the company they work for, and when they get fired, that part of their identity is lost. The right, human way to deal with this as the employer is to say that you're sorry and to truly empathize with the people they're firing. Unfortunately, HR doesn't want to do this anymore, maybe for legal reasons, or maybe because they're just emotionally lazy.
Presumably these Cloudflare HR employees do have the data for why this person was laid off, and they might even have it in front of them, but yeah legally they can't give them any more specifics.
As far as I'm aware, evidence of good performance could be used to strengthen their case to collect unemployment (if Cloudflare tries to fight Brittany's unemployment claim); it could also be used as evidence in a discrimination lawsuit. But given that Brittany said that many other team members also got invited to 15 minute calls with HR, there's good evidence that CF didn't discriminate, but it's also evidence that this could've been a mass, quiet layoff.
Although it sounds like the simple fact that her clients backed out at the last minute could be enough evidence for poor performance, even if the sales were entirely managed properly before that point.
I resent the judgmental attitude being expressed in some of the top comments. In the US at least, we’ve
been socialized into believing workers need to “watch their manners” while corporations can get away with murder.
Here, a worker is clearly being wronged and some random HR goons want the whole thing to proceed as a normal, matter-of-fact 15-minute meeting. They’re going to email severance and equipment return info anyway. Take advantage of these opportunities to make them miserably uncomfortable. In Britt’s case, they never even knew her, so it’s not like she’s going to reach out to them for a recommendation.
Older generations wonder why younger generations are "quiet quitting" and using all this anti-capitalist rhetoric when in the same breath they're sending HR goons (great term for it) to do their dirty work.
Layoffs are unfortunately, sometimes, necessary. But when they happen, it's important that the right people are chosen, for the right reasons (whether that's performance based, voluntary, protecting certain groups, ensuring fairness, etc). That requires collective bargaining by representatives who are able to assess and change the criteria, and who are able to negotiate for better outcomes for those impacted.
The person in this TikTok admits to having closed zero sales. They're also one of the most junior people on the team (4.5 months).
They would be among the first to go under union rules, too.
Unions are often worse at prioritizing things like tenure over performance, if anything. But even under those rules she was one of the most junior people.
There is basically no situation where a union would have prioritized this any differently.
The right reasons in a union are how long have you been part of the union. I don't support protecting certain groups. I don't agree with forcing fairness which is a personal judgement anyways. I don't even agree layoffs are necessary here. They are easy.
A union doesn't stop layoffs it just costs everyone more. Your best representative in a layoff is a lawyer and a place with better employment notice pay.
I have several friends who work in construction and trades and their opinion of unions is very negative. This is a blue state and blue city. A lot of HN loves unions but the blue collar opinion of them is negative, from what I’ve seen.
cloudflare comes off as absolutely cowardly in this: they don’t even have the person’s manager on the call, they claim it’s a personal performance issue but when pressed it’s actually the whole department getting canned. It’s a bad look
Yeah, that was a terrible way to do it -- don't tell someone their personal performance is why they got fired, when in reality it's the company's performance.
Though maybe her manager is getting canned too and either didn't want to make those calls or they didn't want him on those calls.
Yep, this is a very bad look and if it goes seriously viral, is a PR disaster for hiring going forward. At least for me, it only takes a few of these stories to destroy the perception that a place is a good place to work (and that it isn't run by HR).
Right, and management (the lady's boss) has the perfect pretext for firing her himself :
"look, it's a layoff and my bosses', bosses' boss decided that they were using the closed deals metric to rank people and cut the bottom . Ibdont have a say in who I staying and who is leasing, but ill help you in everything I can"
Managers: grow the balls to fire your employees. Theres always a reason. And talking with your people may make you maintain a good relationship with them.
I have personal wiki pages for companies, where I record things like interesting HN posts about them, notes about their products, and a log of recruiting interactions. All on one page.
Were I to pull up this company's wiki page while talking with a recruiter, this video is like, on a first date, someone being rude to the waiter, while they smile at you. Strong signal about what they truly are.
In this case, a stereotypical big corporate-bureaucratic drone company that absolutely doesn't care, and will toss you aside in an instant, in a Kafkaesque manner, while blaming you. With the effect of beating you up and stressing you more, on your way out -- disrupting your job-hunting, possibly unemployment insurance, and health.
A similar situation happened to me after 7.5 years at a company where I had been given consistently good feedback and promotions. I was fed the lie that my position was being eliminated when there were active public postings for the same position (Staff Engineer). My access to corporate systems was cut off at 8am with no warning or explanatio. I got a similar cold call from an HR person I had met once by chance. No involvement of my manager or director, who both reached out apologetically on linkedin after the fact. Not being able to say goodbye to my coworkers I had known for years was emotionally traumatic. Such is corporate life.
Why did HR lead with it being performance based? It makes no sense given that this is very clearly part of a layoff. And especially so since they had no details. All they did was set themselves up for a very bad conversation with anyone who asked why. It comes off doubly worse because they kept repeating the same “we got nothing” reply because it removes all perceived empathy from the interaction.
To be clear, I don’t see this as a fault of the messengers. I see this as a reflection of the company leadership and/or culture. I’ve experienced multiple layoffs in my life (on both sides). Surprisingly, only one went poorly and was a clear reflection of leadership’s historical behavior. So I’m leaning towards believing that this is on Cloudflare’s leadership.
Absolutely terrible way to handle it Cloudflare. Their CEO is quite adept at social. IF they're smart, they'll advise him to directly address this, apologize for the way it was handled. Nevermind her recording of it, probably not the best move, but neither is being fired on the grounds of performance, only to later (seconds) come out that is not at all the reason. Any reasonable person and future potential CLoudflare employee would be pissed too.
Uploading a private conversation with HR to TikTok surely isn't going to help her job hunting. Prospective employers might view such behavior as a red flag... It might even be illegal given that the HR people are likely located in California, a "two-party consent" state.
The thing is... Those two people on the call, I mean... They are just doing their job as well. Don't understand what is the point to actually argue with them. Nothing they can do or change.
And yes, Brittany is going to be internet famous for a day. But a lot of people going to watch this video and recognize her on the next loop of interviews. Just not the best solution for this situation.
It is just sad to see. And I am sorry for anyone who is going through those hard times.
They are, but we could say similar things about cartels, drug smugglers etc.To you they're just criminals, to them, they're trying to survive and just doing their jobs. It doesn't mean it's a noble thing to be doing for a job.
Many horrible people are 'just doing their jobs'. Think about it a little longer before justifying a persons actions, or assuming they're above repute.
I’ve been here. It sucks. I had a similar, shorter conversation, but I was deflated by the corporate stink of half-answers and weasel words after every questions.
Like her, I was doing awesome up until suddenly, I had no job. Fortunately I was given okay severance. I hope she lands okay.
This a strong signal for me to never work with Cloudflare. I doubt that matters to them, but hopefully this PR convinces someone who matters there to reconsider their handling of these situations.
Companies do not give a fuck about you. Companies do not appreciate any sacrifice you make for them, so make none. Never do more but just what they pay you for. You owe them 40 hours and they only owe you a paycheck. You're employment is temporary. HR is there to protect the company from you. Save your money, Network and have a plan b.
Another old guy here. At it's core you are right, but it's also a very negative way to view the situation. Here is how I view it:
You are selling your service to the company, so it's a win-win on both ends. You deliver a service and get paid for it. If you can't deliver, or they don't need your service, or can't pay for it, there is no win-win anymore.
I'm a freelancer, but even when I was employed I looked at it like this. It's the best way to neither live in fantasy land where "your" company is your family, nor have a negative view on companies.
I got him a job at our company, he got very good feedback from his manager for 3 months, and then, suddenly, they fired him because he was not fulfilling the expectation, even tho he had been praised for exceeding them some weeks ago.
Of course he took it personally, because they were saying that HE is not good enough.
One week later they announced massive layoffs and then we understood that it was because of this upcoming layoffs that he got fired, which is very unfair, because they blamed him (and made him feel guilty) when the company already knew the _real_ reason to fire him.
Oof. Somehow, I thought Cloudflare was a decent place to work at — well, I don't think that anymore. Even if it's 100% performance based or totally not so (layoffs), empathy is non-negotiable. You don't know what situation you're putting people in by laying them off. Sure, you can argue that “overpaid tech workers should have tons of savings so they should be fine” but it's not always the case. Not to mention the emotional side of things...
All they had to do was say: "You're being laid off. It's not due to your performance and it is due to economic conditions affecting cloudflare. We're sorry, here's how your benefits etc. will work out." That's it.
They don't need to hug her or be touchy feely. Just be PROFESSIONAL. Tech companies instead try this creepy middle ground (uncanny valley) of quasi-niceness instead of giving it to her straight. Now it's blown up in their face.
[+] [-] IvyMike|2 years ago|reply
I don't want to be judgmental of Brittany because it's a sucky call to have to take. But my recommendation in this situation is to say "I disagree with that assessment of my performance, but I understand you are terminating my employment. What details do we need to handle with any severance, and where do I send my laptop." And then, as is tradition, go get day drunk.
[+] [-] rockemsockem|2 years ago|reply
Those both seem very worthwhile.
[+] [-] kqr|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bananapub|2 years ago|reply
companies explicitly construct situations like this such that the person being screwed doesn't have access to anyone making a decision, just other peons implementing them.
[+] [-] kqr|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaomidi|2 years ago|reply
Cloudflare took a stupid, unnecessary risk here by trying to put this on performance when they haven't documented it.
[+] [-] ChatGTP|2 years ago|reply
People sacrifice a lot of personal time to ramp up in a job. This is why she is emotional. Then she was told she was doing well..by her manager. Now her investment is bogus and it sounds like she will not be compensated at all for it? I mean you're advocating she asks for compensation, when they tell her no? Then what?
Not sure who you are but you're delusional if you think this is ok.
"Go get drunk?", ok
[+] [-] gumballindie|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] songbird23|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cameldrv|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] judge2020|2 years ago|reply
As far as I'm aware, evidence of good performance could be used to strengthen their case to collect unemployment (if Cloudflare tries to fight Brittany's unemployment claim); it could also be used as evidence in a discrimination lawsuit. But given that Brittany said that many other team members also got invited to 15 minute calls with HR, there's good evidence that CF didn't discriminate, but it's also evidence that this could've been a mass, quiet layoff.
Although it sounds like the simple fact that her clients backed out at the last minute could be enough evidence for poor performance, even if the sales were entirely managed properly before that point.
[+] [-] throwxdf|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ralmidani|2 years ago|reply
Here, a worker is clearly being wronged and some random HR goons want the whole thing to proceed as a normal, matter-of-fact 15-minute meeting. They’re going to email severance and equipment return info anyway. Take advantage of these opportunities to make them miserably uncomfortable. In Britt’s case, they never even knew her, so it’s not like she’s going to reach out to them for a recommendation.
[+] [-] TobyTheDog123|2 years ago|reply
Older generations wonder why younger generations are "quiet quitting" and using all this anti-capitalist rhetoric when in the same breath they're sending HR goons (great term for it) to do their dirty work.
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] danpalmer|2 years ago|reply
Layoffs are unfortunately, sometimes, necessary. But when they happen, it's important that the right people are chosen, for the right reasons (whether that's performance based, voluntary, protecting certain groups, ensuring fairness, etc). That requires collective bargaining by representatives who are able to assess and change the criteria, and who are able to negotiate for better outcomes for those impacted.
[+] [-] Aurornis|2 years ago|reply
They would be among the first to go under union rules, too.
Unions are often worse at prioritizing things like tenure over performance, if anything. But even under those rules she was one of the most junior people.
There is basically no situation where a union would have prioritized this any differently.
[+] [-] drewcoo|2 years ago|reply
Ok.
> it's important that the right people are chosen [for layoffs], for the right reasons
Um . . . unions?
> requires collective bargaining by representatives who are able to assess and change the criteria [for which people are being fired!]
Unions?
> are able to negotiate for better outcomes for those impacted
Unions only do that?
I would hope that unions are more than just ways to protect management when they make firing choices.
Unions are not supposed to be a management condom for when management f's the employees. Do people pay dues just so they "do it with a rubber?"
[+] [-] ipaddr|2 years ago|reply
A union doesn't stop layoffs it just costs everyone more. Your best representative in a layoff is a lawyer and a place with better employment notice pay.
[+] [-] monero-xmr|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beanjuiceII|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jes5199|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Johnny555|2 years ago|reply
Though maybe her manager is getting canned too and either didn't want to make those calls or they didn't want him on those calls.
[+] [-] thrtythreeforty|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xtracto|2 years ago|reply
"look, it's a layoff and my bosses', bosses' boss decided that they were using the closed deals metric to rank people and cut the bottom . Ibdont have a say in who I staying and who is leasing, but ill help you in everything I can"
Managers: grow the balls to fire your employees. Theres always a reason. And talking with your people may make you maintain a good relationship with them.
[+] [-] neilv|2 years ago|reply
Were I to pull up this company's wiki page while talking with a recruiter, this video is like, on a first date, someone being rude to the waiter, while they smile at you. Strong signal about what they truly are.
In this case, a stereotypical big corporate-bureaucratic drone company that absolutely doesn't care, and will toss you aside in an instant, in a Kafkaesque manner, while blaming you. With the effect of beating you up and stressing you more, on your way out -- disrupting your job-hunting, possibly unemployment insurance, and health.
[+] [-] Dah00n|2 years ago|reply
https://twitter.com/TheTranscript_/status/165269146916406886...
[+] [-] guax|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanisnan|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] block_dagger|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hysan|2 years ago|reply
To be clear, I don’t see this as a fault of the messengers. I see this as a reflection of the company leadership and/or culture. I’ve experienced multiple layoffs in my life (on both sides). Surprisingly, only one went poorly and was a clear reflection of leadership’s historical behavior. So I’m leaning towards believing that this is on Cloudflare’s leadership.
[+] [-] ericzawo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] olalonde|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] outcoldman|2 years ago|reply
And yes, Brittany is going to be internet famous for a day. But a lot of people going to watch this video and recognize her on the next loop of interviews. Just not the best solution for this situation.
It is just sad to see. And I am sorry for anyone who is going through those hard times.
[+] [-] bamboozled|2 years ago|reply
They are, but we could say similar things about cartels, drug smugglers etc.To you they're just criminals, to them, they're trying to survive and just doing their jobs. It doesn't mean it's a noble thing to be doing for a job.
[+] [-] c0nducktr|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] steve_adams_86|2 years ago|reply
Like her, I was doing awesome up until suddenly, I had no job. Fortunately I was given okay severance. I hope she lands okay.
This a strong signal for me to never work with Cloudflare. I doubt that matters to them, but hopefully this PR convinces someone who matters there to reconsider their handling of these situations.
[+] [-] ChumpGPT|2 years ago|reply
Companies do not give a fuck about you. Companies do not appreciate any sacrifice you make for them, so make none. Never do more but just what they pay you for. You owe them 40 hours and they only owe you a paycheck. You're employment is temporary. HR is there to protect the company from you. Save your money, Network and have a plan b.
[+] [-] koonsolo|2 years ago|reply
You are selling your service to the company, so it's a win-win on both ends. You deliver a service and get paid for it. If you can't deliver, or they don't need your service, or can't pay for it, there is no win-win anymore.
I'm a freelancer, but even when I was employed I looked at it like this. It's the best way to neither live in fantasy land where "your" company is your family, nor have a negative view on companies.
[+] [-] passwert|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paiute|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JaviFesser|2 years ago|reply
I got him a job at our company, he got very good feedback from his manager for 3 months, and then, suddenly, they fired him because he was not fulfilling the expectation, even tho he had been praised for exceeding them some weeks ago.
Of course he took it personally, because they were saying that HE is not good enough.
One week later they announced massive layoffs and then we understood that it was because of this upcoming layoffs that he got fired, which is very unfair, because they blamed him (and made him feel guilty) when the company already knew the _real_ reason to fire him.
[+] [-] peplee|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mastermedo|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laserlight|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tevino|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ochronus|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] carabiner|2 years ago|reply
They don't need to hug her or be touchy feely. Just be PROFESSIONAL. Tech companies instead try this creepy middle ground (uncanny valley) of quasi-niceness instead of giving it to her straight. Now it's blown up in their face.
[+] [-] purpleidea|2 years ago|reply