In the past I owned a Chevy Volt, and I currently own an all-electric car (not a Tesla). Honestly, I think the industry (led by Musk) made a huge mistake in trying to "skip over" plug-in hybrids.
I think there is one fundamental problem with those: duplication. Instead of one system, you need two.
Hybrids by the way are not new at all. They have been used in shipping for ages in situations where the electric load was about the same or higher as the mechanical load, which happens in cruise ships for example. It worked in ships because of the high electric load and because weight doesn’t matter too much. This all doesn’t hold for cars. If it would have worked great, we would all be driving Priuses by now.
Oh, look, it's another EV hit piece! From El Reg no less, who would have thought... Anyway: yes, extremely low temperatures do affect batteries badly, meaning you may not get to drive your car for very long for that particular reason a few days every year.
But, good news! EVs with 24/7 heat pumps keeping the batteries alive are a thing and work out pretty well in within-the-Arctic-circle locations such as Greenland, where previously "keep your diesel engine running at all times during winter to prevent the fuel from freezing" was the norm.
So, no, keeping the planet alive and getting to the Supermarket or your Job or your Dying Grandparents are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even in cold climates! Exclusions apply, not everyone may qualify for the technological advances mentioned, see dealer for details.
The fact is, EVs right now give consumers worse experience in terms of range, recharge time, and reliability, and they cost substantially more. You can try guilting them about saving the planet, but ultimately most consumers buy what serves them best.
The people who accuse every legitimate criticism as being a hit piece are insufferable.
This is a very real problem - especially because, imagine the heat pumps you just mentioned. You go to the grocery store. There's no heat pump at the grocery store. You are quite limited in your travel by how long you need to be at your destination for - which sucks.
Because you think EVs keep the planet alive? They require enormous amounts of raw materials. Unless they are also shared with car sharing or car pooling. Then yes.
And Tesla should probably take inspiration from those, and power the battery heater from the charging station, so you don't get:
> The solution is to keep the battery warm, but the heat comes from the battery itself, so these stricken Tesla drivers are draining the battery just to be able to charge the battery, and we don't need to explain why that might be inefficient.
A lot of things stop working at -45C. Many gas, diesel cars won't start at that temp. Even block heaters fail to keep up at these temps. When I lived in Canada, it was pretty normal for heavy industry workers who were on call to just leave their vehicles idling constantly when it was extremely cold because there was no guarantee it would start again if you shut it off.
EVs fare better in cold climates than ICE cars. They never fail to start. You don’t need a block heater. You can pre-warm them in your garage. You lose some range, that’s it.
The reason those chargers failed has nothing to do with batteries and does NOT reveal “cold hard truth” about EVs. Half the superchargers across chicago were disabled in unison - could have been due to grid stability reasons.
I’ve never had a ICE car fail to start in the cold in the Midwest, nor can I think of it happening to anyone in my family, and yet we have people in the Chicago suburbs with that problem in their EVs.
There are lots of good things about EVs in winter. I definitely like the ability to prewarm the cabin while it’s on the garage.
Note that sodium-based solid-state batteries, the next evolutionary step (for cheaper EV nonetheless), are much more able to hold their charge at low temperature.
All batteries "hold charge" at low temperatures. The problem is that the cell voltage drops such that it won't provide much current. But the energy doesn't go anywhere, it will come out once the battery warms up.
Since buying an EV I was surprised at just how much temperature affected range. Even in my Volvo C40 with a heat pump it's definitely noticeable. Here's an example range vs temperature graph for Tesla S100s showing as much as a 30% reduction in range in cold temperatures. It's a similar graph for every EV: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0196/5170/files/model_s100...
This article is about a specific problem which is you can't even charge the battery if it's cold enough. That seems like a pretty terrible failure mode that needs a solution.
The general range problem is simpler. Partly it's because the battery chemistry works less efficiently when it's cold. And partly it's because some of the battery is being diverted to heat the cabin. (Another surprise owning an EV; they're hard to heat! No big engine throwing off waste heat. It's no accident most high end EVs have resistive seat heaters.)
One of the reasons I don't have an EV is I don't live in California and don't want to be a beta-tester while Californians, like Columbus, discover the rest of the world.
Yes, it's just that with diesels it's a known problem with a known solution. With all the new EV drivers and limited supercharger infrastructure, people are newly discovering it and it's harder to fix.
In may really cold places in the world they just leave the engine running so it never has time to actually freeze through and keep all the stuff moving.
I had the battery in my ICE car freeze in lower temperatures, and become damaged and stop starting reliably. I had to get it replaced. the only way to keep the car from damage was to keep a block heater running (from AC power) the entire time or store it somewhere warm which not all people have the option of.
Turns out extreme cold is bad.
Also this guy was driving something like 1100 km in -40 weather already - if you dont absolutely have to you shouldnt do it at all.
It's straight out physical chemistry. Chemical reaction speeds are temperature dependent.
The rule of thumb is that for every 10 degrees celsius increase, chemical reactions double in speed. (Conversely, drop that temperature by 10 degrees and the speed of your chemical reaction will be halved.)
In other words, drop the temperature of that battery by 20 degrees celsius and you quarter the amount of energy you can obtain per unit of time.
I think the problem is economics. Electric charging stations already have less ability to service as many customers per hour as gas stations. Requiring that they also provide a heated building for the cars to charge in would make it even more expensive. The upcharge for such costs would make the power more expensive and the business less competitive.
It's easy to think that "up north" means the problems EVs sometimes have with Minnesota, or Ontario.
Not necessarily. We recently had a customer from the Yukon region in Canada. That customer is farther north of Saint Paul, Minnesota, than Saint Paul is north of Dallas, TX.
it's currently 13°F in Dallas right now, so not really sure the point of calling out specific cities. it's winter. it gets cold in winter. things have problems working correctly in that cold of winter.
your example of someone that lives so far north that their coming hundreds of miles south still means they are further north than most people is proving what? nice story and all, but the point is a bit lost
EV industry is ripe for disruption. New startup could introduce "mobile charging station", a diesel generator on a trailer. And some hackers could modify EV firmware to charge while driving.
Next iteration could skip batteries and plug electomotors directly into generator.
Some "supercharging" stations are powered by diesel generators. So this is not a joke!
Or maybe some sort of swappable unit for a car, it could contain batteries or small generator. At week I would drive at city on electricity, for holiday trips I would swap power unit for petrol!
[+] [-] hn_throwaway_99|2 years ago|reply
Plug-in hybrids are the perfect car for most people - I won't repeat myself but a previous post on the topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38863491
Literally none of the problems pointed out in this article apply to people with plugins, and you still get 95% of the benefit of having an EV.
[+] [-] huijzer|2 years ago|reply
Hybrids by the way are not new at all. They have been used in shipping for ages in situations where the electric load was about the same or higher as the mechanical load, which happens in cruise ships for example. It worked in ships because of the high electric load and because weight doesn’t matter too much. This all doesn’t hold for cars. If it would have worked great, we would all be driving Priuses by now.
[+] [-] Tommstein|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 1vuio0pswjnm7|2 years ago|reply
Is this suggesting there is a connection between "led by Musk" and "made a hug mistake".
[+] [-] PreInternet01|2 years ago|reply
But, good news! EVs with 24/7 heat pumps keeping the batteries alive are a thing and work out pretty well in within-the-Arctic-circle locations such as Greenland, where previously "keep your diesel engine running at all times during winter to prevent the fuel from freezing" was the norm.
So, no, keeping the planet alive and getting to the Supermarket or your Job or your Dying Grandparents are not necessarily mutually exclusive, even in cold climates! Exclusions apply, not everyone may qualify for the technological advances mentioned, see dealer for details.
[+] [-] ProjectArcturis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dash2|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gjsman-1000|2 years ago|reply
This is a very real problem - especially because, imagine the heat pumps you just mentioned. You go to the grocery store. There's no heat pump at the grocery store. You are quite limited in your travel by how long you need to be at your destination for - which sucks.
[+] [-] frenchman99|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theironhammer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alienicecream|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kube-system|2 years ago|reply
* EV battery conditioning
* diesel anti-gel
* engine block heaters
Many machines don't like the cold.
I remember getting days off of school as a kid because too many of the school busses wouldn't start due to gelled diesel.
[+] [-] ceejayoz|2 years ago|reply
https://www.wcia.com/news/local-news/cold-weather-causes-fro...
[+] [-] tivert|2 years ago|reply
And Tesla should probably take inspiration from those, and power the battery heater from the charging station, so you don't get:
> The solution is to keep the battery warm, but the heat comes from the battery itself, so these stricken Tesla drivers are draining the battery just to be able to charge the battery, and we don't need to explain why that might be inefficient.
[+] [-] glitchc|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] armSixtyFour|2 years ago|reply
Even arctic grade diesel will gel at -45C.
[+] [-] iknowstuff|2 years ago|reply
EVs fare better in cold climates than ICE cars. They never fail to start. You don’t need a block heater. You can pre-warm them in your garage. You lose some range, that’s it.
The reason those chargers failed has nothing to do with batteries and does NOT reveal “cold hard truth” about EVs. Half the superchargers across chicago were disabled in unison - could have been due to grid stability reasons.
[+] [-] alphabettsy|2 years ago|reply
There are lots of good things about EVs in winter. I definitely like the ability to prewarm the cabin while it’s on the garage.
[+] [-] cozzyd|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aredox|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajross|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NelsonMinar|2 years ago|reply
This article is about a specific problem which is you can't even charge the battery if it's cold enough. That seems like a pretty terrible failure mode that needs a solution.
The general range problem is simpler. Partly it's because the battery chemistry works less efficiently when it's cold. And partly it's because some of the battery is being diverted to heat the cabin. (Another surprise owning an EV; they're hard to heat! No big engine throwing off waste heat. It's no accident most high end EVs have resistive seat heaters.)
[+] [-] stephenitis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jeffrallen|2 years ago|reply
It's not rocket science. Thermodynamics, maybe, but not rocket science.
[+] [-] tivert|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iknowstuff|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] juancn|2 years ago|reply
I've seen trucks parked in Iowa in the winter with a heater plugged so the fluids don't freeze (a power cord coming out of the hood).
[+] [-] ProjectArcturis|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r0ckarong|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LegitShady|2 years ago|reply
Turns out extreme cold is bad.
Also this guy was driving something like 1100 km in -40 weather already - if you dont absolutely have to you shouldnt do it at all.
[+] [-] simonblack|2 years ago|reply
The rule of thumb is that for every 10 degrees celsius increase, chemical reactions double in speed. (Conversely, drop that temperature by 10 degrees and the speed of your chemical reaction will be halved.)
In other words, drop the temperature of that battery by 20 degrees celsius and you quarter the amount of energy you can obtain per unit of time.
[+] [-] DougWebb|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LegitShady|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Incipient|2 years ago|reply
Yes you'd need a larger electric motor, but that feels like it should be less expensive than all of the traditional drivetrain components?
[+] [-] KevinMS|2 years ago|reply
no idea if any cars use it. probably not since regenerative braking is one of EV's selling points.
I think if you add a small battery to recycle braking energy you get a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain#Seri... which is pretty rare for some reason https://www.greencarcongress.com/2023/01/20220114-mazda.html
[+] [-] gjsman-1000|2 years ago|reply
Not necessarily. We recently had a customer from the Yukon region in Canada. That customer is farther north of Saint Paul, Minnesota, than Saint Paul is north of Dallas, TX.
[+] [-] dylan604|2 years ago|reply
your example of someone that lives so far north that their coming hundreds of miles south still means they are further north than most people is proving what? nice story and all, but the point is a bit lost
[+] [-] Gee8r9|2 years ago|reply
Next iteration could skip batteries and plug electomotors directly into generator.
Some "supercharging" stations are powered by diesel generators. So this is not a joke!
Or maybe some sort of swappable unit for a car, it could contain batteries or small generator. At week I would drive at city on electricity, for holiday trips I would swap power unit for petrol!
[+] [-] creaturemachine|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] onionisafruit|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] orwin|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] lebuffon|2 years ago|reply
Patience...
[+] [-] ProjectArcturis|2 years ago|reply