Do the dishes in the office sink get washed? If so, by whom? And how clean is the kitchen area?
This may seem like a joke, but the answer says a lot about an organization. For example, last time I was at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, this sign was above the sink:
After the first night of the 2008 SciFoo conference at Google, @gnat Torkington's twitter stream contained a gem: "At SciFoo opening session. 300 people standing around networking. Meanwhile, Larry Page is quietly unpacking chairs at the back of the room." (from memory, not exact)
Long ago, my previous company ditched paper cups in favor of ceramic cups for coffee. You should have seen the disruption in everyone's workflow.
Since you have to actually wash the cup after you drink from it, there were long queues before the kitchen sinks.
People started reducing the number of cups of coffee they drink :) and instead started dozing off (not joking)
People started congregating around the pantry or kitchen because if you wander off with your cup around the office, you still have to come back to kitchen to clean it up.
I used to wonder the whole 'go green' thing at the time because anyway the paper cups are going to be recycled :)
Does this assume that developers should wash the dishes? If so, why is that a good idea? I would assume that developer time is too expensive for that...
i don't work at valve, but i work at an organisation with a very similar management structure (there is none) and payment scheme (autonomous self organizing teams are paid by clients and distribute payments as negotiated by the group). we have virtually zero overhead and minimal residual or recurring income so we are not identical to valve, but their employee handbook could very easily be ours
we have a number of 'bad apples', but they generally find themselves ostracized very quickly. as we have no downside income guarantees (we are organized as a group of independent contractors), people very quickly fall out of the organisation
i assume valve accomplish similar by minimizing payments to individuals who act in bad faith. as they are probably primarily financially motivated and valve is likely a great entry on a cv, i'm sure they don't stick around long
That is incredibly interesting. If you're uncomfortable saying who you work for in public, please contact me. I would love to understand more about your organization and put it on my list of potential companies to hire.
In the dark days when I worked for financial traders, once a year the company would set aside a pool for bonuses and then try to figure out how to share it out based on contribution. If you went around and asked people what percentage they deserved and then added them up, the total would never be less than 300%.
I don't think most people are quite as bad about this as financial traders, but I imagine no group's numbers add up to 100% exactly. What's the dynamic like at Valve, and how do you make sure people feel fairly treated?
So you are saying the requested bonuses were 300% of the pool set by management? There are two possibilities. One, the expectations could be too high. Second, the pool could be too small. Your assuming only the first is correct?
Unlike the traditional management structure that Bill Gore had experienced at DuPont, he proposed a flat, lattice-like organizational structure where everyone shares the same title of “associate.” There are neither chains of command nor predetermined channels of communication. Leaders replace the idea of “bosses.” Associates choose to follow leaders rather than have bosses assigned to them. Associate contribution reviews are based on a peer-level rating system.
I always assumed this sort of org could only function with relatively small companies (e.g. Github, maybe even Valve) but Gore has 9000 employees - pretty impressive.
Gore divides the company into business units, each in their own building with their own parking lot and staff. In fact, they know when to divide a growing unit - when people start parking on the grass (the parking lot gets full).
So no not 9000 people; 90 units of 100 people ( or something like that)
1. How do you handle the logical conclusion of letting your workers do whatever they want, they don't do anything? This may not apply to all employees, but it surely applies to at least one, and I wanted to know specifically how you might handle that situation.
2. What sort of system do you have to address problems with the unconditional hierarchy? For example, if an employee disagrees with Gabe, who wins and how is that handled?
1. How do you handle jobs that suck, but must be done.
Like backups ... nobody really likes the job of 'backup guy'.
It's boring. Tedious. A backwater of a role with no meaningful career progression. Also - the software typically sucks, and is expensive. Also - the hardware typically sucks, and is super-expensive.
But someone must pay attention to backups because stuff happens and you might actually need to recover everything from tape to get the company online.
How does Valve get the tedious, boring, nit-picky, utterly necessary stuff done?
When I worked at the office supply store across the street from Valve HQ I had a guy come in and order 8 laser printers or delivery and he told me he played the role of IT over at Valve. So I'm sure they actually have people who choose to focus on things like that.
I don't think this question should be downvoted. There's a lot of unsexy infrastructure stuff that just needs doing. If people can really do whatever they want, what happens to the stuff that nobody wants to do? Lightbulbs are a great example.
I think it's sad that so many commenters genuinely can't seem to fathom anything positive happening without a hierarchical / top-down / command-and-control approach. Especially when a few billion years of evolution has basically never selected that approach (something like a bee colony may seem similar, but is radically different... it's not like there is a manager bee for every 5-7 worker bees). Please don't vote me into oblivion for saying this.
How many hours a day does the average Valve person spend in meetings? How are they organized?
I've looked into some co-ops, including San Francisco's venerable (and very profitable) Rainbow Grocery. One of the biggest complaints is the amount and/or difficulty of meetings, but they see them as necessary to settle issues with sufficient buy-in from all stakeholders. How does Valve minimize that pain?
This is actually great, I had the same idea last week coming across that handbook, so hopefully someone at Valve can shed some light.
I was mostly curious about project management. It seemed like everyone could be very fluid going from one project to another, or even proposing one on the spot and going on to execute it. There has to some sort of enforcement for this though. Are there expectations, do the self-selected leaders lay out milestones or goals, what happens when those aren't met?
Valve doesn't necessarily seem to have a reputation for having too many product delays vs. always shipping on time. They definitely seem to have constant flow of different products getting out the door though.
Hopefully someone answers, otherwise I might just hitchhike across the lake into Bellevue and see if I can meet with someone there. Very curious to learn what makes their system actually work well.
In hierarchical organizations, people often look to authority figures to decide between competing alternatives. How does Valve avoid or deal with deadlock, forking, cliques, cabals, butthurt sulking, and other common group dysfunctions?
ROWE isn't similar. You still have people telling everyone what to do. Only now the deadlines and expectations will be ridiculous. "I don't care how many hours it takes you this week, just get it done! We only care about results here.". The valve method would imply that middle manager would not exist.
Job postings on Valve site tend to be very specific about the person's duties. To me, it seems to be in contradiction with being able to choose how one contributes to the company.
The short version is that people who are good at things generally get that way because they have a strong ability to tell good work from bad. People who are bad at things can't tell the difference, so they a) have a hard time improving, and b) think their low-quality work is pretty swell.
Is your culture perhaps unusually frank? Alternatively, is it very supportive in a way that makes critique more comfortable? Might you have a formal (or informal?) mentorship program so that people get useful feedback?
Are there peer groups that meet around particular skill areas? E.g., do visual artists get together regularly to show recent work and discuss it?
wpietri|14 years ago
This may seem like a joke, but the answer says a lot about an organization. For example, last time I was at the Wikimedia Foundation offices, this sign was above the sink:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:These_dishes_may_requ...
michael_nielsen|14 years ago
option_greek|14 years ago
Since you have to actually wash the cup after you drink from it, there were long queues before the kitchen sinks.
People started reducing the number of cups of coffee they drink :) and instead started dozing off (not joking)
People started congregating around the pantry or kitchen because if you wander off with your cup around the office, you still have to come back to kitchen to clean it up.
I used to wonder the whole 'go green' thing at the time because anyway the paper cups are going to be recycled :)
loboman|14 years ago
bdunbar|14 years ago
If you can reliably find fresh coffee, morale is good. Low or now coffee, things are amiss.
exim|14 years ago
talentdeficit|14 years ago
we have a number of 'bad apples', but they generally find themselves ostracized very quickly. as we have no downside income guarantees (we are organized as a group of independent contractors), people very quickly fall out of the organisation
i assume valve accomplish similar by minimizing payments to individuals who act in bad faith. as they are probably primarily financially motivated and valve is likely a great entry on a cv, i'm sure they don't stick around long
wpietri|14 years ago
wpietri|14 years ago
I don't think most people are quite as bad about this as financial traders, but I imagine no group's numbers add up to 100% exactly. What's the dynamic like at Valve, and how do you make sure people feel fairly treated?
codeonfire|14 years ago
jrockway|14 years ago
lemming|14 years ago
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._L._Gore_and_Associates)
Unlike the traditional management structure that Bill Gore had experienced at DuPont, he proposed a flat, lattice-like organizational structure where everyone shares the same title of “associate.” There are neither chains of command nor predetermined channels of communication. Leaders replace the idea of “bosses.” Associates choose to follow leaders rather than have bosses assigned to them. Associate contribution reviews are based on a peer-level rating system.
I always assumed this sort of org could only function with relatively small companies (e.g. Github, maybe even Valve) but Gore has 9000 employees - pretty impressive.
JoeAltmaier|14 years ago
So no not 9000 people; 90 units of 100 people ( or something like that)
cypherpunks01|14 years ago
_casperc|14 years ago
Edit: I would still love to hear how it actually is to work there in practice though.
gauravk92|14 years ago
2. What sort of system do you have to address problems with the unconditional hierarchy? For example, if an employee disagrees with Gabe, who wins and how is that handled?
UPDATE: addition to question #1
strager|14 years ago
I don't know about you, but not doing anything is boring to me. Working is so often much more fun than doing nothing.
bdunbar|14 years ago
1. How do you handle jobs that suck, but must be done.
Like backups ... nobody really likes the job of 'backup guy'.
It's boring. Tedious. A backwater of a role with no meaningful career progression. Also - the software typically sucks, and is expensive. Also - the hardware typically sucks, and is super-expensive.
But someone must pay attention to backups because stuff happens and you might actually need to recover everything from tape to get the company online.
How does Valve get the tedious, boring, nit-picky, utterly necessary stuff done?
brentpayne|14 years ago
jc4p|14 years ago
phil|14 years ago
wpietri|14 years ago
strager|14 years ago
threepipeproblm|14 years ago
wpietri|14 years ago
I've looked into some co-ops, including San Francisco's venerable (and very profitable) Rainbow Grocery. One of the biggest complaints is the amount and/or difficulty of meetings, but they see them as necessary to settle issues with sufficient buy-in from all stakeholders. How does Valve minimize that pain?
FreakLegion|14 years ago
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3408/the_cabal_valves_...
unknown|14 years ago
[deleted]
irollboozers|14 years ago
I was mostly curious about project management. It seemed like everyone could be very fluid going from one project to another, or even proposing one on the spot and going on to execute it. There has to some sort of enforcement for this though. Are there expectations, do the self-selected leaders lay out milestones or goals, what happens when those aren't met?
Valve doesn't necessarily seem to have a reputation for having too many product delays vs. always shipping on time. They definitely seem to have constant flow of different products getting out the door though.
Hopefully someone answers, otherwise I might just hitchhike across the lake into Bellevue and see if I can meet with someone there. Very curious to learn what makes their system actually work well.
wpietri|14 years ago
In hierarchical organizations, people often look to authority figures to decide between competing alternatives. How does Valve avoid or deal with deadlock, forking, cliques, cabals, butthurt sulking, and other common group dysfunctions?
flavien_bessede|14 years ago
RegEx|14 years ago
teach|14 years ago
Alterlife|14 years ago
connor|14 years ago
It's possible no Valve employee reads HN (unlikely), but at the very least someone might point us towards a Valve employee answer elsewhere.
Paul_Morgan|14 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROWE
The business measures performance instead of hours. At Valve the performance appears to be measured as 'shipped'.
I'd also guess that Gabe is practicing his own version of servant leadership:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servant_leadership
codeonfire|14 years ago
sycr|14 years ago
lgieron|14 years ago
http://www.valvesoftware.com/jobs/job_postings.html
maaku|14 years ago
wpietri|14 years ago
The short version is that people who are good at things generally get that way because they have a strong ability to tell good work from bad. People who are bad at things can't tell the difference, so they a) have a hard time improving, and b) think their low-quality work is pretty swell.
Is your culture perhaps unusually frank? Alternatively, is it very supportive in a way that makes critique more comfortable? Might you have a formal (or informal?) mentorship program so that people get useful feedback?
Are there peer groups that meet around particular skill areas? E.g., do visual artists get together regularly to show recent work and discuss it?
mgallivan|14 years ago
lower skill -> higher confidence in ability (overestimation) higher skill -> lower confidence in ability (underestimation)
Locke1689|14 years ago
Moreover, this question could also be reduced to a question about their hiring in general.
serverascode|14 years ago
richcollins|14 years ago
tomasienrbc|14 years ago
[deleted]