Linus Torvalds flames Google kernel contributor over filesystem suggestion

[Amorymeltzer]

I really suggest looking at the reply: <https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04254.html>

I know nothing about what they're talking, but the response appears reasonable and mature, seems to engage in the substantive issues without responding to the anger/flaming, and looks like it intends to de-escalate and move forward. Torvalds' reply to that is more measured <https://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/2401.3/04260.html>.

There's a step back in tone a few replies later, but if you go through the next dozen or two messages over the next couple of days, it seems like things go a totally different path than might be expected from the linked submission.

Anyway, I thought it was worth a perusal. Good example of how to respond to something like that.

[ofcourseyoudo]

completely agree, when you look at the full thread, no one even blinks an eye at his rant. They just proceed forward, and when they do so, Linus responds pretty normally (until his next condescending rant).

Seems like people in this group have pretty much gotten used to him being a condescending ass every dozen messages, filter out the posturing, take his genuine suggestion, and work from there.

It doesn't seem to bother them (or they are expending emotional energy not responding to it, a likely bit of collateral damage, but they are still communicating in a pretty professional way besides his tantrums).

[riku_iki]

> but the response appears reasonable and mature

I wouldn't say saying "If I knew ... was going to piss you off so much, I wouldn't have done that." is very mature.

[AndrewDucker]

There is value in demonstrating anger. It makes it clear that the person has crossed a line beyond "Made an understandable mistake." and entered the "Doing things which are beyond what is tolerated in this space."

And in this case, where the person has deliberately, repeatedly, tried to use code they don't understand, it makes it clear that they need to either learn enough to be sensible on the topic, or go away and not come back.

[hasty_pudding]

I wish there was more of this in society instead of immense passive aggression we see now days.

It's very efficient and to the point.

[onyxringer]

Oh noeh, but the feels. Is anyone thinking about the feels?

Don't cry. The contributor will be fine. If you get flamed by Linus you've already earned a badge of a high profile developer. And even best of us sometimes do something stupid and a little direct cold shower is not going to hurt anyone. Linus is not bulling people, doesn't target them for no reason, doesn't do sneaky politics to undermine people, etc.

[big_paps]

I think this is a good way to look at this.

[krmboya]

I like someone that direct and opinionated leading something as critical as the Linux kernel.

That message wasn't just for Steven, but for everyone else who contributes to this critical piece of software we rely on. It's usually very easy for standards to slip, so it requires constant resistance in the opposite direction

[lucasyvas]

He's been better in recent memory but this definitely recedes a bit into his prior unhinged territory. Good luck, Steven, wherever you are.

[_xerces_]

I would take it as a point of pride to be on the receiving end of one of Linus' rants. If I have his attention and he is even looking at something I wrote, it lets me know I made it :)

[anaisbetts]

Linus gives these rants (largely) not to people who make mistakes, or who aren't smart, but people who are thoughtless - people who demonstrate that they don't really care, or just are there to drive-by fix Their Thing without any care about the kernel as a whole or how it will affect other people. That's what makes him Mad more than anything else, and that's definitely not the kind of contributor I'd want to be

[PH95VuimJjqBqy]

I feel the same way, I have immense respect for Linus and can appreciate that he may flame me today and congratulate me tomorrow. It's not personal, it's about the work.

[ChrisArchitect]

[dupe]

News from a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39172487

[saltylicorice]

Steven Rostedt has a long history of kernel contributions before joining Google and is likely better known for those.

[DiggyJohnson]

This doesn't seem like a major problem. If anything it's direct, and a professional should be able to recognize that Linus effing Torvalds has tone problems when it comes to this subject.

[thrillgore]

This is very uncharacteristic of the direction Linus was heading. Damn, Steven must have seriously fucked up.

>You copied that function without understanding why it does what it does, and as a result your code IS GARBAGE. AGAIN.

I generally believe in positivity but if I saw this as his direct report I'd move him to another project ASAP to get scrutiny on his code quality.

[technofiend]

>I generally believe in positivity but if I saw this as his direct report I'd move him to another project ASAP to get scrutiny on his code quality.

I'm not sure I'd start there, but I'd definitely want to understand what problem the person was trying so solve. Might be legit, might be OKR-driven development.

[ametrau]

Do you also think in manager-speak? It’s our downtime, on a news discussion site, why are you still talking in this obnoxious way?

[slau]

This is on the milder end of the spectrum when it comes to Torvalds’ flames. And I’d argue it’s not entirely undeserved.

[WhackyIdeas]

Really? I mean even if that guy was sneakily trying to implant a bug, I still couldn’t talk to him like that.

[__turbobrew__]

I take it as a badge of honour for being flamed by Theo de Raadt. If you are being flamed it means that you are doing something worth engaging with. Take it with a grain of salt and cut through the negativity to find valid criticisms which help you grow.

[nunez]

Print this out and frame it! This is a really good Linus rant!

[anon-sre-srm]

Look at all of the apologists here. Unconstructive, unprofessional, bully behavior is unnecessary, but the cult defers to Herr Leader.

[adastra22]

The amount of support give by other posters here for Linus’ insane antisocial behavior is crazy.

I would never, ever contribute upstream to Linux so long as Linus is involved. My time is too valuable to deal with his BS.

He should realize the hostile environment he creates drives away contributors.

[WhackyIdeas]

I agree, it is shocking.

And with my other comments being downvoted, it’s incredible that people are so up his arse that they live in a bubble thinking that it’s ok to belittle someone like that.

Imagine working under someone like that… wow.

[mkehrt]

Yeah, the replies here are all nuts. Linus is acting like a child. It's completely inappropriate of him to treat anyone like this.

[AlienRobot]

I wouldn't call it "insane antisocial behavior." I have no idea what his personal life is like, but managing the Linux source code isn't socializing, it's a job. You could say he's not very professional in this job, but he isn't doing this to make friends and get along with everybody.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

They should be flamed. As a Google kernel contributor they aren't a noob and they should know better.

[s-xyz]

Amazing and without the emotional part, very relatable arguments that I have seen also in other domains.

[coolThingsFirst]

How hard is nowadays getting some code merged in the kernel?

[youngtaff]

Why f#ck would anyone ever want to contribute to the Linux kernel when you’re in danger of being on the receiving end of a rant like that…

[thdespou]

Because the stakes are high. Nevertheless you shouldn’t take this personally.

[solarkraft]

Because having your thing supported by mainline Linux makes interoperability a breeze and saves a lot of maintainership effort. There's a lot of money behind it. Dealing with the quality gate keeper is a cost of doing business.

[WhackyIdeas]

At least the maintainer gets paid handsomely to put up with that kind crap. Otherwise, I think I would throttle Linus through the screen.