Hybrids really are nice, Toyota just doesn't have any stock at all in the vehicles I was looking for.
The key is they have hybrids at "normal car" prices - the basic Sienna is hybrid and comparable in price to the Kia Carnival and other non hybrid minivans; and much cheaper than the plug-in hybrid Pacifica.
The basic model Sienna just doesn't actually exist anywhere for purchase.
My local dealer seems to have a scheme going that leads to them having a lot of very low km (like <2000) Siennas listed for 1.2-2x MSRP. I hope they choke on them.
From the article: "In the U.S., hybrid demand significantly exceeds production capacity, leading to tight inventories at dealerships, Miyazaki said."
I'll further my point about hybrid being such a low-hanging, realistic solution.
The core technology has been there since the late 90s. Every single major manufacture can quickly produce them. This doesn't have to be just daily family cars, the luxury market (Ferrari) and the 4x4 segment can also take advantage of this. There is already a hybrid Tundra available.
Lets take London for e.g. there are about 2.5 Million cars, lets assume if all of all them were to be hybrid, you would have SIGNIFICANT reduction in fuel consumption and costs to the owners, without ANY lifestyle change. You are not giving anything up as there is something available for everyone's taste.
No range anxiety.
I seriously do not understand why governments don't take this seriously.
In principle I really like it, use gas for long distance and electric for the other 90%. However aren't you really just getting the worst of both worlds? Under-powered gas engine and limited range ev? Wouldn't it weigh a lot more and have twice as many parts to break down? All the maintenance of a gas engine with the additional cost of a battery/electric?
The reason they are efficient is something like this:
A cars engines efficiency/fuel economy is constrained by its max output. Ie when you have an engine capable of very rapid acceleration, that engine is going to be too big across all other scenarios - ie two cars of the same weight going the same speed , the one with the bigger engine will consume more fuel.
The hybrid lets you take advantage of this in two ways. First it allows you to have a smaller engine because the electric motors kick in when you need the acceleration. So it lets you get away with a smaller engine that is more than enough for your driving and that gives you efficiency.
Then it also uses the fact that even the smaller engine is still oversized for things like coasting or going steady so it uses the extra engine output to charge the battery at the right times. Regenerative breaking is another efficiency play
Curious what will happen to the battery over time but for the past few years the hybrid highlander is great.
They usually turn out more reliable (if built right) because you can remove the transmission entirely, which is a major complicated piece of mechanical engineering that is prone to failure.
The designs of some hybrids are able to remove a lot of parts that normal ICE-only cars have.
The design of most Toyota hybrids is quite simple, there are two electric motors and one gasoline engine coupled by a simple planetary gear set. This eliminates the need for a mechanical transmission -- varied wheel speed is accomplished by simply varying the relative speeds of the electric motors. Contrary to a popular misconception, there is no mechanical cone-and-belt CVT in Toyota hybrids, like people might be familiar with in other CVTs. Also, because the engine is linked to the drive motors, this eliminates the need for a starter motor. And because all of the engine accessories are electric on most Toyota hybrids (because they need to operate when the engine is off) there is no accessory belt.
These components (drive belts, transmissions, starter motors) aren't uncommon issues in ICE-only vehicles, so this does translate to improved reliability and lower maintenance.
Also keep in mind that the electric tends to handle low speed movement which it's just great at (instant torque), while the gas engines tend to handle highway / steady state driving which they are just great at. And overall they are each getting less usage than if they were the only powertrain.
A plugin hybrid can have a smaller range battery (as long as the range meets your daily driving needs). Ideally it would give you at least 60 - 80 mile per day range, not the 20 something miles that a lot of them provide.
A full electric on the other hand, needs a very huge battery as it need to give you about 300 mile range, to cover the edge cases. That is a lot of battery weight (and expense) you are carrying around. So the tradeoff is do you want to lug around a huge battery that you will mostly not use, or lug around a gas engine that you will mostly not use? About an equal tradeoff (esp. since the gas engine only needs to be enough HP to maintain cruising speed, acceleration can be handled by the battery, or have it set up as a serial hybrid).
Personally I'd rather have the gas engine as my range extender, instead of the larger battery, since I can quickly fuel up in about 3 minutes vs. 20 - 30 at a minimum. But once battery tech improves and recharge times are in the 10 minute range, I'd say that would be the end of gas engines.
These hybrids should be 100m EV range, that is plenty for most trips. The RAV4 Prime gets about 42m from each charge, which is a bit short for my commute but cuts by gas consumption by a whole lot.
There's nothing under-powered about the gas engine. F-150 daily drivers may cringe, but that's a cultural problem not a problem with the vehicle.
Hybrids are very reliable, especially plug-ins like the Volt that essentially have redundancy and will operate with one of the engines completely disabled. Generally speaking it’s far less wear and tear to drive an electric motor with a generator than it is to have a crankshaft / belts / pulleys / transmission / air driven throttle / complex cooling loops / etc, even with the additional parts.
The new Prius puts down horsepower on par with a Civic SI and does 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. I don't think "underpowered" is a given. Turbohybrids have been the state of the art for F1 racing for a decade now too.
Studies show that there's enough studies to claim any type of car is more reliable, usually by (not) adding in people who complain about bluetooth etc. Or lumping expensive EV sports car tyres in with everyone else
Honda's hybrid system is a bit closer to that, but in practice it's not as reliable or efficient as Toyota's - they haven't been iterating on it for as long.
> Honda’s two-motor hybrid system can operate as either a series or parallel hybrid. The majority of the time, the system operates as a series hybrid. Its electric propulsion motor drives the wheels directly, while the gasoline engine connected to the electric generator/starter motor functions as an electrical generator, supplying power to the hybrid battery and/or the propulsion motor. Under certain driving conditions, such as steady-state cruising at highway speeds, the system switches seamlessly to parallel hybrid operation, with the gasoline engine connecting to the front axle via a clutch, and vehicle speed is proportional to engine speed (rpm).
Diesel-electric trains have no battery, though. The Chevy Volt hybrid was pretty close in that the gas engine acted only as a generator to charge the batteries and could supply enough power for the motors in case the batteries died. I’m not sure why Chevy killed it.
Diesel electric trains need extreme amounts of torque to pull all that weight. There is no reason at all to assume what works for a train would be a good choice for a car.
Maybe I'm the outlier (mostly newer cars?) but I've never had to do more than take cars in for regular maintenance at service intervals. Most of the costs were for wear items like tires, brakes, wipers, cabin air filters etc. or for suspension things alignment. None of that is any different between ICE and electric cars.
I don't think I've ever had an actual drive-train issue.
I often see less maintenance listed as a benefit of EVs. But according to Hertz at least, who have real world experience running large fleets of EVs and ICE cars, EVs end up being more expensive to operate due to lower residual values and higher repair costs. [1]
bombcar|2 years ago
The key is they have hybrids at "normal car" prices - the basic Sienna is hybrid and comparable in price to the Kia Carnival and other non hybrid minivans; and much cheaper than the plug-in hybrid Pacifica.
The basic model Sienna just doesn't actually exist anywhere for purchase.
twisteriffic|2 years ago
sarimkhalid|2 years ago
From the article: "In the U.S., hybrid demand significantly exceeds production capacity, leading to tight inventories at dealerships, Miyazaki said."
I'll further my point about hybrid being such a low-hanging, realistic solution.
The core technology has been there since the late 90s. Every single major manufacture can quickly produce them. This doesn't have to be just daily family cars, the luxury market (Ferrari) and the 4x4 segment can also take advantage of this. There is already a hybrid Tundra available.
Lets take London for e.g. there are about 2.5 Million cars, lets assume if all of all them were to be hybrid, you would have SIGNIFICANT reduction in fuel consumption and costs to the owners, without ANY lifestyle change. You are not giving anything up as there is something available for everyone's taste.
No range anxiety.
I seriously do not understand why governments don't take this seriously.
nightski|2 years ago
xyzelement|2 years ago
The reason they are efficient is something like this:
A cars engines efficiency/fuel economy is constrained by its max output. Ie when you have an engine capable of very rapid acceleration, that engine is going to be too big across all other scenarios - ie two cars of the same weight going the same speed , the one with the bigger engine will consume more fuel.
The hybrid lets you take advantage of this in two ways. First it allows you to have a smaller engine because the electric motors kick in when you need the acceleration. So it lets you get away with a smaller engine that is more than enough for your driving and that gives you efficiency.
Then it also uses the fact that even the smaller engine is still oversized for things like coasting or going steady so it uses the extra engine output to charge the battery at the right times. Regenerative breaking is another efficiency play
Curious what will happen to the battery over time but for the past few years the hybrid highlander is great.
bombcar|2 years ago
kube-system|2 years ago
The design of most Toyota hybrids is quite simple, there are two electric motors and one gasoline engine coupled by a simple planetary gear set. This eliminates the need for a mechanical transmission -- varied wheel speed is accomplished by simply varying the relative speeds of the electric motors. Contrary to a popular misconception, there is no mechanical cone-and-belt CVT in Toyota hybrids, like people might be familiar with in other CVTs. Also, because the engine is linked to the drive motors, this eliminates the need for a starter motor. And because all of the engine accessories are electric on most Toyota hybrids (because they need to operate when the engine is off) there is no accessory belt.
These components (drive belts, transmissions, starter motors) aren't uncommon issues in ICE-only vehicles, so this does translate to improved reliability and lower maintenance.
neogodless|2 years ago
Also keep in mind that the electric tends to handle low speed movement which it's just great at (instant torque), while the gas engines tend to handle highway / steady state driving which they are just great at. And overall they are each getting less usage than if they were the only powertrain.
derekp7|2 years ago
A full electric on the other hand, needs a very huge battery as it need to give you about 300 mile range, to cover the edge cases. That is a lot of battery weight (and expense) you are carrying around. So the tradeoff is do you want to lug around a huge battery that you will mostly not use, or lug around a gas engine that you will mostly not use? About an equal tradeoff (esp. since the gas engine only needs to be enough HP to maintain cruising speed, acceleration can be handled by the battery, or have it set up as a serial hybrid).
Personally I'd rather have the gas engine as my range extender, instead of the larger battery, since I can quickly fuel up in about 3 minutes vs. 20 - 30 at a minimum. But once battery tech improves and recharge times are in the 10 minute range, I'd say that would be the end of gas engines.
subpixel|2 years ago
There's nothing under-powered about the gas engine. F-150 daily drivers may cringe, but that's a cultural problem not a problem with the vehicle.
cityofdelusion|2 years ago
redwall_hp|2 years ago
mavhc|2 years ago
beej71|2 years ago
99% of my daily local trips are under 40 miles, so short range isn't a factor.
I mean, that's just me, but for me it's a near-perfect fit.
Until batteries and chargers get better, anyway.
r00fus|2 years ago
Plug-in is where it gets interesting as you can go mostly without fillups for commutes/shopping if you have access to charging at home/work.
vondur|2 years ago
anjel|2 years ago
helij|2 years ago
skyyler|2 years ago
science4sail|2 years ago
> Honda’s two-motor hybrid system can operate as either a series or parallel hybrid. The majority of the time, the system operates as a series hybrid. Its electric propulsion motor drives the wheels directly, while the gasoline engine connected to the electric generator/starter motor functions as an electrical generator, supplying power to the hybrid battery and/or the propulsion motor. Under certain driving conditions, such as steady-state cruising at highway speeds, the system switches seamlessly to parallel hybrid operation, with the gasoline engine connecting to the front axle via a clutch, and vehicle speed is proportional to engine speed (rpm).
Source: https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/relea...
blackguardx|2 years ago
postalrat|2 years ago
malshe|2 years ago
wavesounds|2 years ago
voisin|2 years ago
NovemberWhiskey|2 years ago
I don't think I've ever had an actual drive-train issue.
freetime2|2 years ago
[1] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/hertz-is-selling-20000-...