Show HN: A platform for remote piano lessons based on the Web MIDI API

[keycon]

I'm building a video conferencing app designed to facilitate better remote piano lessons. My hope is to solve a lot of the challenges piano tutors and new students deal with when taking lessons through Skype/Zoom. It leverages WebRTC's data transmission to send media, MIDI state, and (eventually) send sheet music files and other musical data.

I'm surprised with how well the MVP has worked and would love to hear any feedback or suggestions!

[thomasrynne]

During covid I needed to setup remote piano lessons. I tried combining two videos to show hands on the keys as well as the face but at the time merging the two videos added too much latency. I solved this by only using the top down camera and then adding clear perspex (from a plastic picture frame) at 45 degrees in front of the raised laptop and also pointed lamps at the piano players face (the effect is called Pepper's Ghost). This meant the teacher could see the hands on the keyboard and the players face with one camera. It also meant the piano player would appear to look directly into the camera - like an auto cue. I'm posting here in case it helps someone else.

[Bewelge]

This is such a cool concept, congrats on shipping!

I've been developing a webMIDI app myself for the past couple of years [0] and adding a multiplayer feature is something I've been eyeing for a while. May I ask how good the latency is?

Some feedback on the landing page:

- As others already pointed out, a video example showing the app would be really helpful.

- I think allowing visitors to try out the piano and only prompting to login when trying to access the remote features would work best

- All those buttons that are clickable/selectable but don't do anything when clicked were a little confusing.

On the app: - Connecting the keyboard worked flawlessly (and without any permission prompt). But I'd add some indication that a MIDI device is connected

- Pressing the keys using my mouse doesn't produce any sounds

- Pressing keys on my MIDI keyboard (Yamaha P120) will cause the keys to be selected indefinitely, so I can only ever press them once. Somehow the noteOff events don't seem to be getting registered. Make sure you also register noteOn events with velocity = 0 as a noteOff event (although I don't believe that that's the issue here) and I would suggest calling noteOff yourself if you register a noteOn event for a note that's already playing. That way you can prevent keys from getting stuck.

- I wouldn't hide keys automatically based on screen size. It does look better but imagine someone trying to play this on a tablet/phone where they can't change the scaling

Again, really cool concept and good luck with further development! Feel free to reach out if you want any help :-)

[0] app.midiano.com

[JoshTriplett]

This sounds incredible, and I'd love to try it!

A few immediate thoughts:

As a student, I don't care about a two-sided platform (which is what it looks like you're trying to build). I want to sign up for vetted piano lessons through your site, and purchase a USB midi adapter that you recommend. As a short-term MVP, perhaps point people to a known-working adapter on a site with an affiliate program. Long-term you might consider finding a company willing to sell one white-label and put your logo and website on it, but that's a lot less important than everything else you're building so put it off for a while.

Also, for the first handful of lessons and for subsequent practice, it'd be awesome if you had automated, pre-recorded lessons available, to get the basics down, or to train things like reading sheet music at speed.

[Nifty3929]

I'd love to give some feedback both as a teacher and a student. But I don't see a way on your website to just see what it really does and how it works, beyond just those couple of small animations.

At least a YouTube demo video, or ideally direct access to a real demo interface would be more helpful.

I thought Getting Started might help, but that forced me into a sign-up flow that I don't want to invest in without more information about the outcome.

[Ferret7446]

From what I've heard MIDI controllers are not good for learning piano. You really want weighted keys and a full 88 keys otherwise you won't learn the right habits or build finger strength.

(I learned on a physical piano in person, so I can't speak personally about learning on a MIDI controller, but it sounds plausible to me.)

[turtlebits]

MIDI doesn't automatically mean no weighted keys.

All digital pianos have USB midi, and you can easily pick one a used one with weighted keys for a few hundred on craigslist.

My Yamaha U1 piano also came with a box that lets you interface over MIDI.

[vnorilo]

It will be quite a while before anything else besides the student just engaging with playing and sticking with it matters at all. IMO.

To that end, I think a crappy plastic MIDI keyboard can do a better job than a steinway if it is easier to acquire and accommodate. Being at hand is more important than being just right at this stage.

I say this as a music major, but it is not in any way a universal opinion to be sure.

[williamcotton]

You can get MIDI keyboard with 88 weighted keys.

Also, there are plenty of electric pianos, like the Wurlitzer or Rhodes, that have leas than 88 and only semi-weighted keys.

[beautron]

I agree that weighted keys are preferable, but it's not about "building finger strength," but rather about building finger coordination. Your fingers are already plenty strong enough for weighted keys (especially once you learn how to take advantage of gravity in your technique).

But weighted keys are crucial for building coordination. The resistance of the keys helps you calibrate the connection between your touch and the sound produced. You want both kinesthetic and aural feedback.

[Rodeoclash]

The thing is, all pianos feel different. It's one of the downsides of the instrument is that you often end up having to play whatever piano is at the event (barring the aforementioned digital pianos that are portable).

If all you have is a digital keyboard, don't let that stop you for learning it!

[bluGill]

Strength is an issue, but most of that is 'the only good musician has been dead for at least 100 years'. A good keyboard plays just as well as a geal piano. You can feel the difference so we can't do a real ABX test, which means unlike audio gear we cannot do objective tests.

organs have always had their own feel and plenty of greats have proven they sound great.

[jerkstate]

my opinion (as a dad with kids learning piano, who learned piano as a kid) playing with 88 weighted keys is like learning to write cursive with a fountain pen - maybe artistically interesting, but doesn't matter for the core skills. My kids are learning on 61 key unweighted boards and they're learning melody, rhythm, notation, theory, and all of the things that are about music, not about the particular physiological requirements that a machine originally built in the 1600s imposed.

[jacquesm]

There are lots of controllers with weighted keys these days and plenty of entry level MIDI keyboards have excellent keyboards.

The big advantage is that you don't need to tune them twice per year and that extra budget is either savings or you can spend it on more lessons. A physical piano is nice (and even those can have 'MIDI out' if you look around for a bit or are prepared to do some DIY) but really not a must. I have both here and spend much more time on my digital just because it is far more convenient, I can practice on it at any time of day even when the kids are sleeping and the feel of the keyboard is as good as the real thing (Yamaha P515, not the cheapest but very good quality).

[robbrown451]

Any digital piano functions as a midi controller, and many of them have weighted keys. And there are a few "pure" midi controllers that have 88 weighted keys, such as the M-Audio Hammer 88 or StudioLogic SL88.

[brudgers]

Most people don't have a place to put a Steinway, but you can put an MPK Mini MKIII and a laptop in a backpack.

And what comes out of the speakers is the only thing that matters.

Playing the piano means different things to different people.

[digger495]

My fully-weighted, 88-key digital piano 100% has MIDI out.

[modeless]

Weighted 88 key keyboards like Clavinovas are probably the most common pianos these days and they all support MIDI.

[trust_bt_verify]

Many high end digital pianos have midi io and weighted keys.

[hhyndman]

My Roland piano, with weighted keys, has MIDI.

[rawrawrawrr]

It's not a big deal imo. I started on digital piano, moved over a few years to a real piano. The brain adapts quickly.

[lizhang]

i encourage everyone to get started on whatever device is most accessible. if you only have a 49 key midi keyboard without weighted keys, get started on that. just do enough to have some fun and see if this is something you'd like to continue. unless you are very serious about learning classical piano, better to build bad habits and correct them later than to allow this "88 key weighted keyboard only" gatekeeping to stop you from starting the journey

[udtravdu]

Congrats on shipping!

I would suggest recording the videos from the player's point of view. It adds a layer of abstraction to have to reverse the image when reading it as a student.

Unless you are also encouraging your students to learn to read a pianist from an audience's perspective.

[keycon]

Good point! Thank you

[phireal]

There's also https://plugandplink.com/, which includes a hardware component to help the person learning (lights on the snake).

The app also includes preprepared videos and lessons (scales, arpeggios etc.) which interact with the hardware component.

My son's been using it with a tutor remotely and it's been working great! Not only that, but he can use the app and the snake to self-guide his practise during the rest of the week.

[weinzierl]

When the pandemic hit we needed a quick solution for my daughter's piano lessons. I built a setup with OBS, Synthesia and an old Logitec web cam I had lying around (these were impossible to get new at the time).

I transmitted a frontal video of the player from the laptop cam, a top-down view of the center section of the keyboard (the cam angle was not wide enough for the whole), and the virtual keyboard from Synthesia. I had three different layouts of these elements in OBS, that could be switched by pressing the space bar. On the audio side I sent a mix from the laptop mic for voice plus the direct audio from the e-piano.

Served us well for the time.

One constraint that improved solutions probably don't have now was that teachers could not decide on a video conferencing software, so my setup-up needed to be independent. This almost made OBS a no-brainer, because of the virtual cam support.

[qwertox]

One thing I'd change from a marketing perspective would be that in the video loop the tutor would also have a keyboard at their hands. Because usually it is like this, that if the tutor wants you to hear your mistakes, it plays the improved part which you had wrong by putting extra emphasis on the correct part while explaining it.

The video loop, as it currently is, makes if feel YouTube-y or a formal, business-like Zoom call, while the really special thing of this very interesting platform is the connectedness of tutor and student.

Awesome platform!

[keycon]

Great suggestion! Thank you very much. I'll definitely keep this in mind when I make a proper demo video

[montag]

This looks pretty cool! Would love to see a quick YouTube demo of the product in action. What's the biggest benefit of the MIDI capability, in practice?

[bruce343434]

The browser (firefox) says that allowing MIDI can have security implications - what's that all about?

ETA: I didn't see this on your website because I didn't create an account or anything. But I imagine it would pop up at some point during usage, and maybe you know more about this general popup. I've seen it before on other sites that want to use MIDI devices.

[The28thDuck]

Website is a bit jumbled on mobile, just a heads up.

[DrawTR]

Are the demo videos supposed to show the MIDI piano lighting up at the same time as the video performance? Not seeing that on my side if so

[tanepiper]

Many years back I worked on a Websocket WebMidi app (https://github.com/tanepiper/browser-band) that I would have loved to have made more concrete as a way to jam online but as usual it was a sideproject that went nowhere.

[yayitswei]

Anyone have recommendations for a good midi software instruments? I'd pay for a good piano or electric sound, and I haven't been happy with the GarageBand sounds I'm currently using. What are some good affordable options, and what's the best that money can buy?

[easyThrowaway]

Check the Spitfire Symphony Orchestra Grand Piano[1], which is free and honestly I find it way superior to a lot of commercial samplebanks.

Can't remember if is there any piano available in the free version of NI Komplete[2] but it's still worth checking out.

[1]https://www.spitfireaudio.com/bbc-symphony-orchestra-discove...

[2]https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/bund...

[Pine_Mushroom]

Pianoteq by Modartt seems to be well liked, it uses physical modeling rather than samples. Ivory II by Synthology is also highly regarded. Arturia makes some very nice electric piano VSTs, and some serviceable acoustic pianos as well, but they do seem a bit over priced to me personally.

[jacquesm]

Very cool! I will definitely try this out, thank you for making it.

[keycon]

Hey, thanks! I'm a big fan of pianojacq!

[yedava]

Do you have any recordings of how a digital piano sounds to the other side - like if a teacher wants to demonstrate how to play dynamics?

[keycon]

I'll get to work on a video demo! The app has a sort of piano VSTI running in the browser, so what you hear will be reliably reproduced on the peer side.

[throwuwu]

Amazing idea! I had no clue web MIDI existed.

[digger495]

I am a student -- how do I find an instructor who uses your platform?

Does it work on an iPad?

[keycon]

It's meant for laptop or desktop at this time, but I will 100% look into adapting it for an iPad. I think the challenge might be connecting a midi device to it though.

Keyboard Connect is still in an early stage, so we don't support tutors advertising on the platform yet. Thank you for these suggestions!

[castles]

Wow, sounds like a fun/cool project. Wish you great success!

[keycon]

Appreciate it castles, thank you!