I think it's a bit rich to describe this as the 'future of video game preservation'.
The MiSTer project https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Wiki_MiSTer/wiki more rightfully deserves that title. It's got a huge range of systems (across consoles, arcade and micro computers) and it's all GPL licenced. The base board is a Terasic DE10 Nano which is proprietary but all other hardware required is open source.
The MiSTeX project aims to make MiSTer portable across different FPGA platforms https://github.com/MiSTeX-devel so a DE10 Nano won't be mandatory enabling a new ecosystem of open hardware and commercial for profit solutions.
I take no issue with people wanting to make money in this space. I take great issue with trying to gatekeep system preservation behind a mostly closed system you stamp an 'open' moniker on.
Five years ago the Mister people were similarly unable to STFU about raspberry pi’s. Mister is still emulation, it still has tons of issues, and it’s still $700 invested before you’re actually playing games. Meanwhile we’re in a golden age of RGB mods, flash carts, and optical drive emulators for original hardware.
(2022) - I don't think there is anything new here since this was announced two years ago.
FWIW, OpenFPGA on the Analogue Pocket works pretty well. Many of the most popular MiSTer cores were ported over and there are some nice desktop tools to make it easy to configure [1].
Wow, that looks useful! Out of curiosity, I scanned the latest Windows release (4.5.0) with VirusTotal and it reported several malware hits. I realize I could manually audit the source code and build an .exe from scratch but do you think the release hosted on GitHub is malicious?
I wish people would stop treating FPGAs as the Second Coming of the Lord or whatever. It is really not.
It's emulation, plain and simple. Not bettero or worse than software emulators. It usually lags behind the pure software emulators because there are fewer devs and because emulating stuff in hardware is harder than emulating stuff in software.
Just because it's in hardware doesn't mean that it is "better" or "more accurate".
The main advantage of FPGA emulation is concurrency. When you’re emulating a piece of hardware with multiple chips in software, you’re often forced to run the emulation in batches (i.e. run the CPU for 10 cycles, then run the video chip for 10 cycles, then run the audio chip for 10 cycles) for performance reasons. This matters because some games require a higher level of timing accuracy to (for example) paper over bugs in the game code, or perform fancy graphical tricks. There are cycle-accurate software emulators, but they aren’t really playable for consoles after the 16-bit era and require relatively powerful CPUs. FPGAs allow you to run multiple chips in parallel, which eliminates this issue, allowing for accurate emulation in a small battery-powered handheld device.
One practical difference is that software emulation almost always runs under an operating system and all sorts of cruft which can add latency and jitter. An FPGA just does the one thing.
The main advantage is it makes it possible to do more accurate emulation without needing to sacrifice performance in the same way as software emulators. But the very large gap between affordable CPU performance and affordable FPGA performance makes it not an obvious tradeoff.
Whilst it's true FPGA doesn't inherently imply accuracy it does make it simpler to recreate things in a more accurate way, in particular around interactions between CPU,audio and video. It also enables accurate input latency with respect to these things.
I recently bought an Analogue Pocket and I think it's a great piece of hardware, but I'm really not a fan of this company's business model. This page has told me nothing I actually want to know about OpenFPGA.
Here's my question: If I'm developing an FPGA core, why should I develop for OpenFPGA instead of MiSTer? I want to know why it's better for preservation that I develop for OpenFPGA. Is it a more portable platform that has a more guaranteed future? I need to be convinced that OpenFPGA solves problems that make it a more likely choice than MiSTer 10+ years from now.
If someone with more experience than me in this space can answer the above, I would be really grateful. I'm astounded that Analogue's page on OpenFPGA is all marketing fluff without actually answering this.
Even if this were the future of emulation, we need a lot more than emulators for anything to really be considered the "future of video game preservation".
Modern games so frequently require connections to servers - often needlessly. For example, Ubisoft is shutting down the servers for 2014's The Crew on March 31, 2024. That's less than 10 years after release. When the servers are shut down, the entire game will stop working - including the lengthy single player campaign. No emulator will bring that game back from the dead.
In a similar story, Square Enix recently announced that they will be shutting down Nier: Reincarnation's servers in April 2024, less than just 3 years after its worldwide release in 2021. And yes, it's a single player game. My wife is a fan of the Nier franchise and has been playing Nier: Reincarnation since it's release. In a couple months she'll never be able to play it again. Square also pulled the plug on Babylon's Fall in 2023, less than just 1 year after it's 2022 release.
If you're concerned about game preservation, be prepared for the disaster coming soon. FPGAs won't be enough.
While this is being done intentionally now, it has been an issue for over a decade. - And it hasn't kept people from preserving these games in the slightest.
Even now, there is a lot of work being put into reviving games that required master servers etc. by means of reverse engineering and essentially cracking. I do however agree with you that this is not the way it should I be and I still think developers and publishers should be legally bound to either allow software that they sell to function indefinitely or release the server code when they shut down the official servers.
> Square Enix recently announced that they will be shutting down Nier: Reincarnation's servers in April 2024, less than just 3 years after its worldwide release in 2021. And yes, it's a single player game.
Hmm? The Nier games are always online? I keep meaning to try them (although by now i probably have to buy used discs). You're saying there's no point any more?
So, what happens if this particular FPGA no longer can be bought?
Isn’t it more likely it will be possible to compile and run current C code on 22nd century hardware (possibly on some virtualization solution) than that it will be possible to compile and run FPGA code on 22nd century hardware?
I agree. For me, one of the challenging long term parts of video game preservation will be non-standard controllers and other peripherals, such as the Wii remote, Wii balance board, Guitar Hero/Rock Band guitars and drums, etc. Sure, technically you can use a mouse and keyboard for some of those, but it’s fundamentally an entirely different experience from the original.
The Wii came out over 17 years ago and third party companies still make controllers for them. Maybe that will still be the case 40 years after release, but eventually nearly all Wii consoles will stop working. Will there always be a big enough market of people playing Wii games on emulators to justify making those controllers and peripherals? I hope so, but am not sure. There near certainly won’t be enough demand for 3rd party Wii balance boards, which I can honestly live with, but I do hope the main controllers themselves are still available for purchase or possible to make out of other hardware available in the future.
Verilog is just a logic implementation. It should be pretty portable. There are some issues, and certainly the bitstreams won’t be compatible, but if C still works, I imagine verilog would too.
I agree, this is tying the video game to a more recent hardware, which will also disappear in its own time. Much better to have a full software emulation that can be ported / recompiled to newer CPUs and new OS.
I’ve pasted the specs below, but in my opinion the biggest difference is that the OpenFPGA - in its Analogue Pocket form - is an end-user friendly target. MiSTer is more “enthusiast-friendly” with more options and upgrades (including an recommended add-on to the basic kit).
MiSTer “tech specs”:
Intel/Altera Cyclone V SE (5CSEBA6U23I7) FPGA SoC with 110,000LE (41,500ALM) and 5,570Kbit of Block RAM.
ARM Cortex A9 dual-core CPU at 800MHz.
HDMI video and audio allowing easy connectivity to any modern monitor/TV.
1GB of DDR3 RAM that is directly available to both ARM and FPGA.
High-speed ARM <-> FPGA interconnect due to both being in the same chip.
OpenFPGA specs:
Intel/Altera Cyclone V FPGA
49K logic elements and 3.4Mbit BRAM
Intel/Altera Cyclone 10
15K logic elements
2x independently addressable
16MB cellular RAM
(128Mbit x 16)
32MB low latency memory
1x synchronous DRAM 64MB
(32Mbit x 16)
The cores that are community contributed can be open source. The hardware and tooling are not open, so it doesn't meet most people's definition of open. On the spectrum it's much closer to being open than closed source emulation products that first parties distribute.
Is MiSTer considered open? It's dependent on a closed source toolchain to generate the bytestream.
That's a huge amount of marketing effort with very little actual answers to basic questions such as "why is this the future of video game preservation?" Seems like a hype-based product
I am surprised no one has yet tried to make a portable shell for the DE-10 Nano (Mister-FPGA's target platform). With a power usage of 10 watts, I think it should be quite feasible even with the addition of a small LCD panel. However, it would probably require re-engineering some of the standard addon boards for the form factor.
Though sadly it's remained a prototype. I think the issue they had was you needed to mod the DE10 Nano (remove the pin headers and I think the ethernet jack) to fit it into the portable form factor. So they had concerns with either selling it in kit form where people had to do the mods themselves to expensive boards or doing it in house and effectively reselling modded DE10s.
A fully custom board would be the solution but then price is a big issue. The DE10 Nano is very cheap vs its BOM cost at catalogue prices.
I purchased the Analogue Pocket and it’s a great little device. Got an archive of all GB and GBC games and can play them off an SD card using some of the FPGA cores available. while expensive, it’s great to have that tactile feel just like an original gameboy with modern quality of life features
Just a reminder that Analogue have made very little on their promises to those they stole time from.
Analogue isn't even the only ones to do an FPGA rebuild of a console; there's a near-perfect GB/GBC clone (with quirks toggles) that fits into a traditional Gameboy shell: https://funnyplaying.com/products/fpgbc-kit
I fail to see how programmable logic patched together == "the future of video game preservation". There's community, software, testing, etc... involved as well.
[+] [-] gchadwick|2 years ago|reply
The MiSTer project https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Wiki_MiSTer/wiki more rightfully deserves that title. It's got a huge range of systems (across consoles, arcade and micro computers) and it's all GPL licenced. The base board is a Terasic DE10 Nano which is proprietary but all other hardware required is open source.
The MiSTeX project aims to make MiSTer portable across different FPGA platforms https://github.com/MiSTeX-devel so a DE10 Nano won't be mandatory enabling a new ecosystem of open hardware and commercial for profit solutions.
I take no issue with people wanting to make money in this space. I take great issue with trying to gatekeep system preservation behind a mostly closed system you stamp an 'open' moniker on.
[+] [-] DrNosferatu|2 years ago|reply
Their self-appraising pitch applies more to the MiSTeX project than themselves.
[https://github.com/MiSTeX-devel]
[+] [-] pbj1968|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ageitgey|2 years ago|reply
FWIW, OpenFPGA on the Analogue Pocket works pretty well. Many of the most popular MiSTer cores were ported over and there are some nice desktop tools to make it easy to configure [1].
[1] https://github.com/neil-morrison44/pocket-sync
[+] [-] sgtgrumbles|2 years ago|reply
See https://www.virustotal.com/gui/file/7695a53b129c4e46eaf60cb0... for the VirusTotal report.
[+] [-] dark-star|2 years ago|reply
It's emulation, plain and simple. Not bettero or worse than software emulators. It usually lags behind the pure software emulators because there are fewer devs and because emulating stuff in hardware is harder than emulating stuff in software.
Just because it's in hardware doesn't mean that it is "better" or "more accurate".
[+] [-] ndiddy|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] actionfromafar|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deelowe|2 years ago|reply
FPGAs and the associated dev tools allow for timing analysis/timing constraints that cannot be done with software based emulators.
[+] [-] rcxdude|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gchadwick|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grapescheesee|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dansalvato|2 years ago|reply
Here's my question: If I'm developing an FPGA core, why should I develop for OpenFPGA instead of MiSTer? I want to know why it's better for preservation that I develop for OpenFPGA. Is it a more portable platform that has a more guaranteed future? I need to be convinced that OpenFPGA solves problems that make it a more likely choice than MiSTer 10+ years from now.
If someone with more experience than me in this space can answer the above, I would be really grateful. I'm astounded that Analogue's page on OpenFPGA is all marketing fluff without actually answering this.
[+] [-] snvzz|2 years ago|reply
It uses "open" in the name, to try and confuse people into doing unpaid work for them.
I am hopeful the overlap between the levels of naivety needed and ability to do digital design will be non-existent.
[+] [-] CivBase|2 years ago|reply
Modern games so frequently require connections to servers - often needlessly. For example, Ubisoft is shutting down the servers for 2014's The Crew on March 31, 2024. That's less than 10 years after release. When the servers are shut down, the entire game will stop working - including the lengthy single player campaign. No emulator will bring that game back from the dead.
In a similar story, Square Enix recently announced that they will be shutting down Nier: Reincarnation's servers in April 2024, less than just 3 years after its worldwide release in 2021. And yes, it's a single player game. My wife is a fan of the Nier franchise and has been playing Nier: Reincarnation since it's release. In a couple months she'll never be able to play it again. Square also pulled the plug on Babylon's Fall in 2023, less than just 1 year after it's 2022 release.
If you're concerned about game preservation, be prepared for the disaster coming soon. FPGAs won't be enough.
[+] [-] cybrox|2 years ago|reply
Even now, there is a lot of work being put into reviving games that required master servers etc. by means of reverse engineering and essentially cracking. I do however agree with you that this is not the way it should I be and I still think developers and publishers should be legally bound to either allow software that they sell to function indefinitely or release the server code when they shut down the official servers.
[+] [-] nottorp|2 years ago|reply
Hmm? The Nier games are always online? I keep meaning to try them (although by now i probably have to buy used discs). You're saying there's no point any more?
[+] [-] Someone|2 years ago|reply
Isn’t it more likely it will be possible to compile and run current C code on 22nd century hardware (possibly on some virtualization solution) than that it will be possible to compile and run FPGA code on 22nd century hardware?
[+] [-] bogantech|2 years ago|reply
The same code can be easily target another FPGA as long as you don't use any vendor specific primitives or IP cores
[+] [-] johnfernow|2 years ago|reply
The Wii came out over 17 years ago and third party companies still make controllers for them. Maybe that will still be the case 40 years after release, but eventually nearly all Wii consoles will stop working. Will there always be a big enough market of people playing Wii games on emulators to justify making those controllers and peripherals? I hope so, but am not sure. There near certainly won’t be enough demand for 3rd party Wii balance boards, which I can honestly live with, but I do hope the main controllers themselves are still available for purchase or possible to make out of other hardware available in the future.
[+] [-] markemer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cm2187|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] junaru|2 years ago|reply
[1] https://mister-devel.github.io/MkDocs_MiSTer/
[+] [-] paulhart|2 years ago|reply
MiSTer “tech specs”:
Intel/Altera Cyclone V SE (5CSEBA6U23I7) FPGA SoC with 110,000LE (41,500ALM) and 5,570Kbit of Block RAM.
ARM Cortex A9 dual-core CPU at 800MHz.
HDMI video and audio allowing easy connectivity to any modern monitor/TV.
1GB of DDR3 RAM that is directly available to both ARM and FPGA.
High-speed ARM <-> FPGA interconnect due to both being in the same chip.
OpenFPGA specs:
Intel/Altera Cyclone V FPGA 49K logic elements and 3.4Mbit BRAM
Intel/Altera Cyclone 10 15K logic elements
2x independently addressable 16MB cellular RAM (128Mbit x 16)
32MB low latency memory 1x synchronous DRAM 64MB (32Mbit x 16)
1x asynchronous SRAM 256KB (128Kbit x 16)
[+] [-] multiplied|2 years ago|reply
It doesn't support a few power-hungry systems supported by MiSTer.
MiSTer doesn't support OG physical carts.
[+] [-] nottorp|2 years ago|reply
The web site looks like your average ex-googler's SaaS startup so I'm sceptic.
Hoping people who are more in the emulation scene will clear things up.
[+] [-] lagrange77|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nereye|2 years ago|reply
https://github.com/lnis-uofu/OpenFPGA
https://openfpga.readthedocs.io/en/master/
[+] [-] q3k|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] snvzz|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] willis936|2 years ago|reply
Is MiSTer considered open? It's dependent on a closed source toolchain to generate the bytestream.
[+] [-] bowsamic|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sebastianconcpt|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FPGAhacker|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fayalalebrun|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gchadwick|2 years ago|reply
Though sadly it's remained a prototype. I think the issue they had was you needed to mod the DE10 Nano (remove the pin headers and I think the ethernet jack) to fit it into the portable form factor. So they had concerns with either selling it in kit form where people had to do the mods themselves to expensive boards or doing it in house and effectively reselling modded DE10s.
A fully custom board would be the solution but then price is a big issue. The DE10 Nano is very cheap vs its BOM cost at catalogue prices.
[+] [-] HtmlProgrammer|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nottorp|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] indrora|2 years ago|reply
Analogue isn't even the only ones to do an FPGA rebuild of a console; there's a near-perfect GB/GBC clone (with quirks toggles) that fits into a traditional Gameboy shell: https://funnyplaying.com/products/fpgbc-kit
[+] [-] snvzz|2 years ago|reply
Please elaborate. These events are important to document.
[+] [-] WhereIsTheTruth|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] opisthenar84|2 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|2 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] terrycody|2 years ago|reply