Do you need to log into it in order to shift it out of park? Can you drive it without a smartphone on your person? Do certain HVAC functions require a paid subscription?
There's no way in hell they're making money at that price. They're probably not even breaking even.
Even the higher trims are going to have extremely thin margins, if they're making money at all. Seeing as it's an $8K jump in price from the base model to the second level trim, I imagine dealers are going to make it very difficult to buy a base model.
They way they handle that (almost everyone does it this way now) is don't make very many of the low end model, maybe none at the start, then get the cost down and later make them. Suppress demand. GM didn't make enough bolts.
Tesla can almost make money selling a model 3 at $39k before any tax discounts, the RWD version with 272 miles. With the theoretical battery price of $100/kwh, each kwh is almost 4 miles of range, need 28+19/4 = need about 11 kwh of battery or $1,100 of cost addition. They don't want to increase the range on their lowest end car because people might buy it instead of the more expensive higher end prices.
These prices are pretty meaningless. They said the same thing about Hyundai Konas but dealer prices are substantially different. Used/new car purchases continue to be a terrible value proposition.
Per CarGuru's stats page[1], prices have been in steady decline across the board. Average is 4.63% decline in the past 90 days. Hyundai/Kia are down >5% in the past 90 days. Teslas are actually down a lot more, 14% in the past 90 days and 29% YoY.
By far the biggest problem I encountered with the Bolt EV was its transient but recurring inability to charge from DC charging stations. The Equinox has a far higher charging power, up to 150kW. It makes me wonder if they fixed anything and what.
But a Tesla model 3 and cover the camera in the car. That's only used if you are foolish enough to pay and use FSD which almost no one does buy it now. 1.5 hours each way is 3 hours of driving, at 70 miles an hour that is 210 miles, add in 50 mile buffer and you are there.
But a far better deal is buy a used tesla model 3 with more range, used, and 4 years of battery warranty (to 120k miles) and 4 more years of drive train warranty, for well under 30.
This is why tesla model y was the best selling sedan in the entire world last year, taking it away from Toyota, an amazing thing really.
A Model 3 literally does all of that, except for the bit about wanting to get it at a "dealer", which I suspect you included precisely to avoid buying the Tesla. So, I guess you'll have to wait.
Or you could get a car delivered to your driveway for you like the rest of us urchins. But maybe that's just a bridge too far.
It's a shame they couldn't bring it in at $30k because at $35k they will have to compete against the likes of the Volvo EX30, although this edges out on range.
I know someone with a 6 year old Tesla X that now has a range of around 120 miles. This is becoming a serious impediment for them. What happens to all the buyers of these vehicles when their range is halved before their life expectancy is up? Needing to pony up another $10-15k will probably be unaffordable for the average Joe.
What year is your friend's Model X and what was the original rated range? All Model Xs sold before 2020 have an 8 year unlimited mile warranty on the drivetrain. If capacity is below 70% original, Tesla will replace the battery for free.
> I know someone with a 6 year old Tesla X that now has a range of around 120 miles.
How many miles do they have on it? Mileage that short after only 6 years should be covered by warranty. That's not degradation, that's a battery failure.
It just gets baked into the resale price. Some EV’s will still have 80% of their range at 20 years and other will be at 50% in 7 years based on owner behavior, battery chemistry, etc.
Though I doubt your friend’s situation would be much different with an ICE. The only way a new battery isn’t covered by the warranty is if he’s already driven 150k miles before 30% degradation hit, at which point ICE cars also see a dramatic drop in resale value.
As to ~10k to replace a battery, high mileage ICE engines end up needing a lot of work over their lifetime. Many 300k mile car see several sets of spark plugs, various belts, plus some big ticket items like transmission, catalytic converter, or cracked head gasket etc. Batteries just condense all that into one big ticket item which slowly degrades and people can budget for.
> I know someone with a 6 year old Tesla X that now has a range of around 120 miles
Yeah, I really don't think you do. That would be an outrageously wild outlier. As others are pointing out, the simple warranty terms promise a 4-5x lower degradation. I won't say it's impossible to break a battery that badly in six years, but if it happened your friend is doing some crazy stuff to their car.
More likely you're misunderstanding or they're spinning. Maybe you heard them talk about wanting to plan road trips with 120 mile legs or something (which is a pretty routine thing -- trips can actually be faster if you charge often at low capacities).
There's no way this is true. That would be over 50% battery degradation and it's completed covered within the 8 year warranty.
Battery failures happen, but no 6 year old Tesla is at 60% battery degradation without a system failure.
Also, lithium ion batteries are almost entirely recyclable. Once we've mined enough and have a good recycling process in place, this will become more affordable for your average person.
Hrm, I believe Tesla's warranty is "8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.", so your friend should look into getting a new Tesla!
Also, and I'd love if someone could dig up some data on this, the X and S used an older battery type that has since been replaced by a new chemistry and assembly which degrades quite a lot less than the older nickel based batteries.
TLDR: I think battery degradation varies a lot by make/model/year.
That sucks but… duh. Its going the way of disposable consumer electronics. It will take some breakthrough in battery tech to prevent EVs from becoming as (tragically) disposable as our phones.
I'm so sorry for your friend – it sounds like they got a really bad battery. Typical range loss for a Tesla is only 10-20% over that time, and it levels out after that.
I'm not really anticipating being a car buyer for another half decade, but the #1 thing I want to judge the industry by & see progressing is MPGe (or kWh per 100km elsewhere). How efficient is your vehicle?
Leaving everyone to go figure out efficiency obfuscates what should be a defining characteristics of these offerings!
Is there really much room for improvement on efficiency without moving to very different form-factors?
I would have figured that rolling resistance and air resistance account for the huge majority of the energy usage without much room for improvement over eg a Model 3, unless you make it look like an F1 car or give it solid tires or something.
"MPGe" is an odd measure and probably doesn't actually measure what people think it does. Miles (or km) per kWh (or 100 kWh, but really that's just multiplying by 100) is going to be a better measure.
When I think of "MPGe", my incorrect intuition is that it's factoring in the cost of gas and the cost of electricity to create a cost per mile that results in an "MPGe" relative to gas prices. ie, a 60 MPGe car would cost half as much per mile as a 30 MPGe car.
But as mentioned, this is incorrect. "MPGe" is based purely on some idea of how much energy a gallon of gas has in kWh, and miles/kWh is used to calculate that.
The result is that a 60 MPGe car could cost just as much, if not more, to drive than a 30 MPG ICE if gas prices are low while electricity costs are high.
Most people who don't drive an abnormally large number of miles have never much cared about fuel economy because it's a relatively small part of the cost of owning a car. At $3/gallon and 12,000 miles a year, the difference between 20MPG and 40MPG is $75/month, and when gas was $1.50 it was half that.
This is even less of a concern with electric vehicles, both because any electric vehicle is already more environmentally friendly (you can feasibly charge with 100% renewable energy regardless of MPGe), and because the energy cost will always be lower than it was for gasoline vehicles, which leaves even less monetary value on the table for possible gains from efficiency improvements.
So almost nobody is going to care about that unless we end up in a world where electricity prices are dramatically higher than they are now.
Agree. the 26.5 kWh for 100 miles at California electric prices (0.40$/kWh) is not great compared to hybrids. That's the same price it costs to run a Prius at gasoline prices of $4/gallon.
Well, now, that's actually interesting. I'll have to check back in 7-8 years, when used models should have depreciated down to half that price, and see if it makes sense to buy one.
They make crossovers because they sell crossovers. If you want a compact sedan, you only have a few options (most of those are luxury or super low end, sans the Model 3).
To save you some time, here are some real prices (from the article):
2LT FWD starting at $43,295 (or $35,795 with tax credits)
2RS FWD starting at $44,795
3LT FWD starting at $45,295
3RS FWD starting at $46,795
On top of that, add $1,395 destination charge. Also, add your state taxes.
Rough realistic price is going to be $47,000. Priced exactly so you don't get to extract any value out of fuel savings during the lifetime of the vehicle ;).
We need cheaper, smaller EVs in the US yesterday. Looking at the options China and Europe have and comparing to what we have you can really get the sense that car companies here only care about making SUVs/trucks/and _some_ crossovers electric but don’t actually care about making small cars electric because of one thing.. profit. They know they’ll make more money on the massive cars but that’s horrible for us because it further expands the need for larger parking spots, wider roads, and I won’t even get into the fatality statistics when comparing cars of different sizes.
The only thing that will force car companies to get smaller cars into the U.S. market is regulation. Then and only then will we see true EV offerings around the 20k mark
Vehicle sizing for EVs is weird because the battery is a larger proportion of the weight of the vehicle, and because of that the size of the battery is more related to how much range you want to get than how big the vehicle is. If you put a 500 mile battery in a subcompact, it isn't going to weigh that different than a midsized crossover with the exact same battery in it, and it isn't going to get much better range either because it doesn't weigh much less.
At which point sacrificing interior space doesn't yield much in terms of efficiency and makes for a poor trade off. What we're probably going to see is "family cars" with a 300+ mile range and the shape of an SUV and then "commuter cars" which are small and correspondingly have a <100 mile range, because it doesn't make a ton of sense to make something which is tiny but still heavy.
What sort of regulation would force smaller cars into the market at that price point?
The small Chinese EVs are universally poor performers in terms of crash safety. You can make a lot of concessions on price when you don't particularly care about the people inside the car. Are those the regulations you're talking about?
Not sure what you mean by small? The EUV is not very large, nor the Nissan leaf. People just don't want them here. Too small, they are both used to the big SUVs, and afraid of losing in a collision to one.
In other news, the EV we will be producing will have 30,000 miles of range and will cost $25 and will solve all of the problems in your life using magic.
bityard|2 years ago
LeoPanthera|2 years ago
Sohcahtoa82|2 years ago
Even the higher trims are going to have extremely thin margins, if they're making money at all. Seeing as it's an $8K jump in price from the base model to the second level trim, I imagine dealers are going to make it very difficult to buy a base model.
NotSammyHagar|2 years ago
Tesla can almost make money selling a model 3 at $39k before any tax discounts, the RWD version with 272 miles. With the theoretical battery price of $100/kwh, each kwh is almost 4 miles of range, need 28+19/4 = need about 11 kwh of battery or $1,100 of cost addition. They don't want to increase the range on their lowest end car because people might buy it instead of the more expensive higher end prices.
somerandomqaguy|2 years ago
floxy|2 years ago
alphanumeric0|2 years ago
mullingitover|2 years ago
[1] https://www.cargurus.com/research/price-trends
xnx|2 years ago
michaelbuckbee|2 years ago
jeffbee|2 years ago
turtlebits|2 years ago
That said, the Bolt does have a low kWh charging rate of 55 kW, and in early models, DC fast charging was an option.
kube-system|2 years ago
* it is available, new, at my local dealer, for <=$40k
* it will enable me to travel to a destination 1.5 hr away, and return, without stopping to charge
* it has a reliable fast-charging network
* doesn't stream video of me to someone else's computer
I don't really think I'm asking for much.
NotSammyHagar|2 years ago
But a far better deal is buy a used tesla model 3 with more range, used, and 4 years of battery warranty (to 120k miles) and 4 more years of drive train warranty, for well under 30.
This is why tesla model y was the best selling sedan in the entire world last year, taking it away from Toyota, an amazing thing really.
idiotsecant|2 years ago
peteradio|2 years ago
samsolomon|2 years ago
Edit: Never mind I see that’s something you’re already considering!
ajross|2 years ago
Or you could get a car delivered to your driveway for you like the rest of us urchins. But maybe that's just a bridge too far.
1970-01-01|2 years ago
Wow. No way they're going to beat the #1 best selling EV in the world. GM is clearly still learning how to both make and sell EVs.
ashconnor|2 years ago
tcbawo|2 years ago
ggreer|2 years ago
atonse|2 years ago
Ours (mid-range 240 mile model 3) has lost less than 20 miles of range after 5 years/36k miles.
Sohcahtoa82|2 years ago
How many miles do they have on it? Mileage that short after only 6 years should be covered by warranty. That's not degradation, that's a battery failure.
Retric|2 years ago
Though I doubt your friend’s situation would be much different with an ICE. The only way a new battery isn’t covered by the warranty is if he’s already driven 150k miles before 30% degradation hit, at which point ICE cars also see a dramatic drop in resale value.
As to ~10k to replace a battery, high mileage ICE engines end up needing a lot of work over their lifetime. Many 300k mile car see several sets of spark plugs, various belts, plus some big ticket items like transmission, catalytic converter, or cracked head gasket etc. Batteries just condense all that into one big ticket item which slowly degrades and people can budget for.
ajross|2 years ago
Yeah, I really don't think you do. That would be an outrageously wild outlier. As others are pointing out, the simple warranty terms promise a 4-5x lower degradation. I won't say it's impossible to break a battery that badly in six years, but if it happened your friend is doing some crazy stuff to their car.
More likely you're misunderstanding or they're spinning. Maybe you heard them talk about wanting to plan road trips with 120 mile legs or something (which is a pretty routine thing -- trips can actually be faster if you charge often at low capacities).
aschobel|2 years ago
seanmcdirmid|2 years ago
https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
> 8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
So I'm guessing either your friend doesn't read their warranty or they've gone over 150K?
leetharris|2 years ago
Battery failures happen, but no 6 year old Tesla is at 60% battery degradation without a system failure.
Also, lithium ion batteries are almost entirely recyclable. Once we've mined enough and have a good recycling process in place, this will become more affordable for your average person.
erulabs|2 years ago
Also, and I'd love if someone could dig up some data on this, the X and S used an older battery type that has since been replaced by a new chemistry and assembly which degrades quite a lot less than the older nickel based batteries.
TLDR: I think battery degradation varies a lot by make/model/year.
nonethewiser|2 years ago
mjamesaustin|2 years ago
topaz0|2 years ago
jauntywundrkind|2 years ago
Leaving everyone to go figure out efficiency obfuscates what should be a defining characteristics of these offerings!
russell_h|2 years ago
I would have figured that rolling resistance and air resistance account for the huge majority of the energy usage without much room for improvement over eg a Model 3, unless you make it look like an F1 car or give it solid tires or something.
Sohcahtoa82|2 years ago
When I think of "MPGe", my incorrect intuition is that it's factoring in the cost of gas and the cost of electricity to create a cost per mile that results in an "MPGe" relative to gas prices. ie, a 60 MPGe car would cost half as much per mile as a 30 MPGe car.
But as mentioned, this is incorrect. "MPGe" is based purely on some idea of how much energy a gallon of gas has in kWh, and miles/kWh is used to calculate that.
The result is that a 60 MPGe car could cost just as much, if not more, to drive than a 30 MPG ICE if gas prices are low while electricity costs are high.
AnthonyMouse|2 years ago
This is even less of a concern with electric vehicles, both because any electric vehicle is already more environmentally friendly (you can feasibly charge with 100% renewable energy regardless of MPGe), and because the energy cost will always be lower than it was for gasoline vehicles, which leaves even less monetary value on the table for possible gains from efficiency improvements.
So almost nobody is going to care about that unless we end up in a world where electricity prices are dramatically higher than they are now.
Twistyfiasco|2 years ago
reducesuffering|2 years ago
leesec|2 years ago
Here's another claim from them in 2018 about upcoming cars requiring a technological breakthrough:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/12/577688125....
ceejayoz|2 years ago
marssaxman|2 years ago
tomatotomato37|2 years ago
seanmcdirmid|2 years ago
raydev|2 years ago
I think the ground clearance might be tricking you, the proportions make it look like a compact hatchback, just lifted.
antisthenes|2 years ago
To save you some time, here are some real prices (from the article):
2LT FWD starting at $43,295 (or $35,795 with tax credits)
2RS FWD starting at $44,795
3LT FWD starting at $45,295
3RS FWD starting at $46,795
On top of that, add $1,395 destination charge. Also, add your state taxes.
Rough realistic price is going to be $47,000. Priced exactly so you don't get to extract any value out of fuel savings during the lifetime of the vehicle ;).
hnburnsy|2 years ago
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/02/2024-chevy-equinox-ev-t...
efitz|2 years ago
efitz|2 years ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38783355
willio58|2 years ago
We need cheaper, smaller EVs in the US yesterday. Looking at the options China and Europe have and comparing to what we have you can really get the sense that car companies here only care about making SUVs/trucks/and _some_ crossovers electric but don’t actually care about making small cars electric because of one thing.. profit. They know they’ll make more money on the massive cars but that’s horrible for us because it further expands the need for larger parking spots, wider roads, and I won’t even get into the fatality statistics when comparing cars of different sizes.
The only thing that will force car companies to get smaller cars into the U.S. market is regulation. Then and only then will we see true EV offerings around the 20k mark
FredPret|2 years ago
AnthonyMouse|2 years ago
At which point sacrificing interior space doesn't yield much in terms of efficiency and makes for a poor trade off. What we're probably going to see is "family cars" with a 300+ mile range and the shape of an SUV and then "commuter cars" which are small and correspondingly have a <100 mile range, because it doesn't make a ton of sense to make something which is tiny but still heavy.
idiotsecant|2 years ago
The small Chinese EVs are universally poor performers in terms of crash safety. You can make a lot of concessions on price when you don't particularly care about the people inside the car. Are those the regulations you're talking about?
I like those regulations.
spydum|2 years ago
rootusrootus|2 years ago
I've owned a Bolt. It was $24K out the door (however, no tax credit at the time). And I really have a hard time understanding why you'd call it large?
raydev|2 years ago
Animats|2 years ago
nonethewiser|2 years ago
JojoFatsani|2 years ago
madaxe_again|2 years ago
Until it exists, it doesn’t exist.
LuciBb|2 years ago
[deleted]