As someone who's not too worried about pesticides (though I'm not 100% sanguine) but is quite disappointed with the flavor of many commercial cultivars, this is a bit more like what I hoped the 'organic' movement would've moved into. Some smaller organic producers do produce some tastier fruits/vegetables as a side effect, mostly because they don't pick them as early, but the larger organic producers use the same pick-unripe practices as regular agribusiness does, and more or less all of them use the same high-yield, watery cultivars.
I would personally be happy with something in between on cultivars. It seems that with a heritage tomato, for example, the goal is to get some crazy, knobby looking things from the 18th century in various colors that are clearly different from round, red, commercial tomatoes. But I'd be happy with round, red, commercial tomatoes from less high-yield, more flavorful varieties that produce slower-growing, less-watery tomatoes, like what's grown by the better farms in Greece or Italy. Nonetheless I can see how that'd be difficult from a branding perspective; if you're going to introduce a new cultivar and try to charge more for it, it's easier if it's really distinctive in appearance.
In case you're interested, the thing you're discussing is usually available at heritage tomato sellers (at least in California).
I am currently growing 16 different "heritage" tomato plants that are precisely low-yield less-watery cultivars from Italy and Greece in the round-red style. As you suggest, the person who sold them to me said it was hard to sell those particular plants because everyone expects heritage tomato plants to look "unusual" (as compared to my motivation, which is mainly flavor and aroma).
IIRC the chemicals that plants produce naturally to fight off pests are responsible for some of the flavor, so when you use pesticides that actually reduces the flavor somewhat because the plant no longer needs to spend energy producing those chemicals. E.g. terpenes, which are both insecticides and flavor molecules:
Unfortunately, large-scale agriculture optimizes for shipping and shelf-life and when organic producers grow large enough, they must do the same. Tomatoes are the classic example of this, but it's true for everything. For example, pretty much all the avocados available in the US are the Hass variety---because they have a nice, thick skin. But there are some really great tasting varieties that are mostly unavailable outside of Central America or the Caribbean simply because they don't transport well.
This is a significant advantage of the farmer direct produce box enterprises that have sprung up everywhere. Because the fruits and vegetables are spending less time in storage and get to the consumer quicker they are often treated differently by the producer, ripening on the vine/bush/ground for longer.
Lets also not forget that the heritage varieties by nature are not hybrid seeds which means that seed can be kept from the plants and planted the following year.
If you take most commercial seed stock it's hybridised resulting in the seed stock being tied to suppliers and not being replantable.
without trying to sound like a paranoid nutbag from abovetopsecret.com, the latter is a serious risk to the food chain. The moment someone allows hybrids to be patented, we all starve. Monsanto are actively working on this.
I've been growing about 200kg a year of non hybrid heritage vegetables for about 10 years in the London suburbs. Totally different to the crap they sell in the supermarkets.
There's nothing wrong with hybrids for commercial agriculture - we couldn't grow enough food to feed everyone without them. They're tougher, grow faster, and yields are better. There are seed banks where natural varieties are saved, and you can bet Companies like Monsanto have a seed library that covers just about everything on the planet you can grow from a seed (or a bulb or a cutting or whatever).
But for home gardening I stick to heirloom varieties as myself. They're harder to grow, but it's not like you're using commercial farming techniques. If you get a good variety you can trade with your friends.
It's a pain to dry seeds, though, and sometimes you go through all the trouble and for whatever reason they won't sprout when you plant them.
I'm not sure I'd say that most commercial seed stock is hybridised. I'm in the UK too and in my experience most varieties you can buy are still the kind where you can harvest seeds and plant again the following year.
That said, I ignore the hybrid F1 varieties too. Mainly because I enjoy harvesting my own seeds and selecting the best (or weirdest mutations) each year that are best adapted to conditions where I live. Hybrids can be pretty expensive too and you generally only get a few seeds.
Roses. I was buying roses not long ago and asked lady why they didn't smell like they used to. To which she literally said - "the smell has been traded for longevity." the same I guess goes for lots of veggies and fruits too. Crispy and brightly colored, but tasteless.
I'll use this article as an excuse to point people to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Vavilov who set up one of the first seed banks, and whose followers protected it through the siege of leningrad; some even starving to death surrounded by bags of rice. Seeds in a bank in Syria were recently moved out of the country to a nuclear bomb-proof vault in Norway protect them from damage. Preserving biodiversity is serious stuff.
I'm a historical re-enactor, and one thing we get to have a bit of fun with is fruit & veg. Aside from sneaking totally inauthentic fruits into displays to see if people notice ("why that coconut floated across the atlantic" etc), we do have a few members who belong to a heritage seed club. One of my friends brought along some Victorian breed of plum (mottled yellow/purple), which I can honestly say was better than any other I've had.
"One of my friends brought along some Victorian breed of plum (mottled yellow/purple), which I can honestly say was better than any other I've had."
Speaking just for myself as very much not a gardening person, that is why I personally am interested in "heritage" plants. Heavy-duty commercial breeding over the past ~50 years has generally disregarded taste as a driving factor in selection, or at least given it a lower priority. Personally, I don't even disagree. There is something to be said for a reliable food supply. (If you don't know what that thing to be said is, try not having one.) But if you're going to grow it yourself, why not shoot a little higher?
Both my grandparent's place and the place I moved into a few years ago have some apple trees that I can't identify what they are, except to say they are certainly not what you'd find in a grocery store. (My grandparents claim their trees are "Anoka", which I can barely find references to on the internet, and I have no idea how to identify what's in my backyard, except that it's definitely not the same.) In both cases, the applesauce these trees produce is like nothing you can buy in the store. It's not even close. And I don't mean, "Oh, it's a little bit better but I'm going to use hypobole", I mean, it's barely recognizable as being covered by the same noun. Store-bought applesauce is something you drink, this is something you eat. Also makes good baby food (for extra bonus hippie points).
Being able to destroy a farmer for unknowingly growing Monsanto patented crops (via contamination of an otherwise non Monsanto field) seems really fucking lousy.
[+] [-] _delirium|14 years ago|reply
I would personally be happy with something in between on cultivars. It seems that with a heritage tomato, for example, the goal is to get some crazy, knobby looking things from the 18th century in various colors that are clearly different from round, red, commercial tomatoes. But I'd be happy with round, red, commercial tomatoes from less high-yield, more flavorful varieties that produce slower-growing, less-watery tomatoes, like what's grown by the better farms in Greece or Italy. Nonetheless I can see how that'd be difficult from a branding perspective; if you're going to introduce a new cultivar and try to charge more for it, it's easier if it's really distinctive in appearance.
[+] [-] _dps|14 years ago|reply
I am currently growing 16 different "heritage" tomato plants that are precisely low-yield less-watery cultivars from Italy and Greece in the round-red style. As you suggest, the person who sold them to me said it was hard to sell those particular plants because everyone expects heritage tomato plants to look "unusual" (as compared to my motivation, which is mainly flavor and aroma).
[+] [-] Alex3917|14 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terpene
[+] [-] joeyo|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hartror|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gouranga|14 years ago|reply
If you take most commercial seed stock it's hybridised resulting in the seed stock being tied to suppliers and not being replantable.
without trying to sound like a paranoid nutbag from abovetopsecret.com, the latter is a serious risk to the food chain. The moment someone allows hybrids to be patented, we all starve. Monsanto are actively working on this.
I've been growing about 200kg a year of non hybrid heritage vegetables for about 10 years in the London suburbs. Totally different to the crap they sell in the supermarkets.
[+] [-] tsotha|14 years ago|reply
But for home gardening I stick to heirloom varieties as myself. They're harder to grow, but it's not like you're using commercial farming techniques. If you get a good variety you can trade with your friends.
It's a pain to dry seeds, though, and sometimes you go through all the trouble and for whatever reason they won't sprout when you plant them.
[+] [-] tezmc|14 years ago|reply
That said, I ignore the hybrid F1 varieties too. Mainly because I enjoy harvesting my own seeds and selecting the best (or weirdest mutations) each year that are best adapted to conditions where I live. Hybrids can be pretty expensive too and you generally only get a few seeds.
[+] [-] micheljansen|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eps|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jberryman|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robotmay|14 years ago|reply
Glad to see them making a comeback!
[+] [-] jerf|14 years ago|reply
Speaking just for myself as very much not a gardening person, that is why I personally am interested in "heritage" plants. Heavy-duty commercial breeding over the past ~50 years has generally disregarded taste as a driving factor in selection, or at least given it a lower priority. Personally, I don't even disagree. There is something to be said for a reliable food supply. (If you don't know what that thing to be said is, try not having one.) But if you're going to grow it yourself, why not shoot a little higher?
Both my grandparent's place and the place I moved into a few years ago have some apple trees that I can't identify what they are, except to say they are certainly not what you'd find in a grocery store. (My grandparents claim their trees are "Anoka", which I can barely find references to on the internet, and I have no idea how to identify what's in my backyard, except that it's definitely not the same.) In both cases, the applesauce these trees produce is like nothing you can buy in the store. It's not even close. And I don't mean, "Oh, it's a little bit better but I'm going to use hypobole", I mean, it's barely recognizable as being covered by the same noun. Store-bought applesauce is something you drink, this is something you eat. Also makes good baby food (for extra bonus hippie points).
[+] [-] personlurking|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] madamepsychosis|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bprater|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] DanBC|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jff|14 years ago|reply
I've got nothing but hope for the future of genetically modified food, I just hope that Monsanto can learn to relax a bit more.
[+] [-] georgeott|14 years ago|reply
http://www.monsanto.com/food-inc/Pages/default.aspx
[+] [-] gouranga|14 years ago|reply
The company should not exist.