So like... A company bragging about itself in a way to make employees work more without asking to get paid for it? Can't say I've seen anything like that before. How original this makes Apple!
Back to real life: every company claims to be best, unique or something like that. Some hollow, BS claim to motivate their employees. But just because they print it on a poster doesn't make it any more real.
Apple is heartless corporation like all others. This can easily be seen in their profit-margins: They care about money more than anything else.
I don't see why Apple fanboys feels the need to make Apple anything more, you know, like a special corporation, which cares about them, personally. If you think that sounds obnoxious or facetious, I've seen people here on HN make those exact claims.
Anyway: It's a corporation. Making money. Often in ethically shady ways. Nothing more, nothing less. Like every other corporation.
I'd go further, and say that Apple is significantly worse than many other corporations in our industry, in terms of how they treat their people, how they treat their customers, and how they view the world and the ecosystem in which they operate. When Apple has power, they abuse it. When they don't have power, they fight tooth and nail to obtain it, while playing the underdog card.
And, there are corporations in our industry that are not "heartless...like all the others". If there weren't, we wouldn't have a higher standard to compare Apple to in order to see their many shortcomings; rarely are those better companies as successful as Apple (which is a great disappointment to me, as a believer in free markets), but many exist. There are, of course, many worse companies, as well. But, Apple certainly isn't a good one.
This reminds me of a conversation I had once with a friend who worked in McKinsey, I told him "I might be smart enough to work for McKinsey, but I am definitely not stupid enough to work in McKinsey"
This kind of poster makes some sense - if the company is working on a drug for cancer or eradicating world poverty etc. It might make some sense if the organization is a non-profit, saving lives.
"sacrifice your weekend for" - makes zero sense, for a corporation whose primary (only??) motive is to make money. Also notice the choice of words "sacrifice" - not "spend" or "use" etc. The first thought that comes to my head is, they are not gonna pay me for sacrificing my weekends.
I just wish companies stop glorifying extra/more/free work. There is nothing romantic/great about this - end of the day, all companies are same - they care about their profits more than anything else, they'd not hesitate to throw out a guy in a minute (even if he had worked for them for 30 years) if it improves their margins.
Making computers accessible to everyday people is arguably one of the most important things for the overall development of the world. Apple is doing that.
A lot of people don't seem to grasp that there is no dichotomy between turning ever-higher profits and creating outstanding value for customers. At least not in the minds of the many people who admire Apple, so your implication that they are somehow deluded rings hollow.
It didn't read like "bragging" to me so much as being honest about the worst parts of a job, kind of like the "for better or for worse" part of a wedding vow. Occasional unexpected work is a fact of life for roles that oversee mission critical products. It wouldn't surprise me if this was true at Apple, where small teams are responsible for products that tens of millions of people uses. If a showstopping OSX bug pops up on a Friday afternoon, do you really expect some kind of weekend skeleton crew to do the coding or should, you know, the people responsible for the relevant parts of the code come in?
Sure there is, that is why we choose to do it for a price that makes our life rewarding and deserving of such work. Talking of work and no rewards and compensation is not very impressive these days.
>>The kind of work that has your fingerprints all over it.
Yes that is why commits to source code repos exists. So that users who make them are traceable. Nearly every Open source repository has a AUTHORS/CREDITS files these days.
>>The kind of work that you'd never compromise on. That you'd sacrifice a weekend for.
I would only sacrifice my time for some compensation in return.
>>You can do that kind of work at Apple. People don't come here to play it safe. They come here to swim in the deep end. They want their work to add upto something. Something big, something that couldn't happen else where.
They said the same thing to slaves who built the Pyramids, Taj Mahal and Colosseum of Rome. And they did build things far more majestic and time lasting than the iPhone, iPad, Mac or the iPod. I don't wish to die as a slave even if I'm building the Taj Mahal. Nobody cares, and its you who is having this horrible life sacrificing your time, energy and other things in life for somebody else.
This is hardly inspirational. This sort of inspiration evaporates in thin air after you receive your salary two months into your job.
Just a side note. I noticed that when you quoted the first line, you subconsciously added the first two contracted "is" words. When I read the text, I found the first line difficult to read due to the contractions. I wonder why they did it that way.
I suspect they didn't actually say the same things to the slaves that built the Pyramids; I suspect they just told them to get on with moving rock and whipped them if they didn't. Certainly I'd much rather work for Apple than the ancient Egyptians.
There are many many people who work in exploitive jobs, most don't have reasonable alternatives.
In silicon valley, there are likely many engineers who work at exploitive jobs. They likely have reasonable alternatives, but don't take them because they have hopes of a big payout.
Then you have Apple employees. They likely have reasonable alternatives to working at Apple, but they aren't their expecting a big jackpot, because Apple is an established public company. So why are they there? Most likely it's because the message of that card does speak to them. If they figure out later that it is BS, they are free to go. For all the secondhand stories I hear of how bad it is to work at Apple, I'm surprised by how few first hand stories I hear.
The kind of work that will make me millions. You'll work weekends while I'm at my 5000 sqft "green" house in Portola Valley or Tahoe on Friday through Monday. You will do that work here at Apple.
We don't want people to come here and play it safe. We want people to come here that want to drink the kool-aid. We want their work to add up to something for us. If it doesn't, prepare to be screamed at once a day or more.
I want your work to add up to something. Something big. Something that results in wealth for me.
Welcome to burnout. You'll only last 3 years and then I'll replace you with new kool-aid.
Somehow, I feel that the following short anecdote is appropriate here:
"There are ancient cathedrals which, apart from their consecrated purpose, inspire solemnity and awe. Even the curious visitor speaks of serious things, with hushed voice, and as each whisper reverberates through the vaulted nave, the returning echo seems to bear a message of mystery. The labor of generations of architects and artisans has been forgotten, the scaffolding erected for their toil has long since been removed, their mistakes have been erased, or have
become hidden by the dust of centuries. Seeing only the perfection of the completed whole, we are impressed as by some superhuman agency. But sometimes we enter such an edifice that is still partly under construction; then the sound of hammers, the reek of tobacco, the trivial jests bandied from workman to workman, enable us to realize that these great structures are but the result of giving to ordinary human effort a direction and purpose. Science has its cathedrals, built by the efforts of a few architects and of many workers."
-Gilbet Newton Lewis
nice, but how many of you are ready to sacrifice your life (weekends) for a company's profit.
- Curing cancer: yes
- Saving lives : yes
- Building an outlet for yet spending more money : no
As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children.
Yeah, I had a similar reaction to that line. I might consider working weekends if I get something out of it other than "swimming in the deep end", like, say, extra money, or the prospect of extra money in the future in the case of a startup where one puts in that kind of time in the hope of future rewards. That is made possible by having a significant equity stake in the company.
I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.
Here's the question (which I sincerely don't know the answer)
Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project?
Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work)
Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine".
And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.
Do you actively seek to minimize your work to the greatest extent possible so that you can maximize family time? Perhaps if you moved to a country with a really low cost of living, you could consult remotely for a few hours a week and spend every other waking moment constantly interacting with your family.
Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?
As someone who is currently working in an organization that doesn't offer me that sort of fulfillment, I'd love to be working for Apple and receiving that on day 1.
Not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur, fewer of us will be successful entrepreneurs. If we are going to work for someone else, it's nice to be able to do something we can be proud of. I imagine that working for Apple makes that possible.
Thoroughly depressed by the responses here - especially on a site that prides itself (or used to) on being more nuanced and intelligent than average. If you don't like the message then fine, it's a little saccharine for my taste, but it doesn't make Apple a 'soulless' company, it doesn't make Apple customers empty-headed morons suffering from "stockholm syndrome", and snarking at it does not elevate you above those people who do believe in the message. Quite the opposite.
Reading the comments, a question just struck me - honestly how many of the really competent people (the ones who make real difference in the world) think about what corporation they are willing to work for and on what grounds?
Brad Fitzpatrick (memcached fame) for instance mentions this in the Android performance related video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... - believes in open source, doesn't want Android to fail due to responsiveness issues - that's his motivation.
What might be the motivations of great people lately working for Apple - they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?
"they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?"
How many software/hardware companies are making great products? I'm an Apple user (though I very much dislike the behavior of the company), but I'm hard-pressed to name any company building better products than Apple. Or even name many that are in the neighborhood.
> they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?
I bet a lot of them would disagree with your premise. You can't just make a great product anywhere, a lot of things need to be in place for that to happen.
Let me tell you an unfortunate truth: Think of everyone you really respect. Really look up to. Every one of them are risk takers. At some point, they jumped in the deep end. Those who play it safe go nowhere. Apple knows that in order to lead, they need those kind of people. If that isn't you, fine. Go work for Sun. Or RIM. Or Nokia. Or Yahoo.
One day you all will learn that there is no shortage of people who think they deserve the fruits of your labor, through no work of their own. They will not give you the option of supporting the needy voluntarily, through charity. They will seize your money, by force, by a willing government eager to buy their votes with the sweat of your hard work. Once you eek out a successful living where you actually pay real taxes, you will begin to grow frustrated with the lack of control that you will have with your own money. But even if you don't. Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my money, which I work for, belongs to someone else? Its quite ironic and hypocritical to say that wanting to keep one's own money is greed, but wanting to take someone else's money by force is justice.
Meh, useless blabla from big corps. The real meaning: "devote your a to the company, and maybe we'll consider sharing some of our extraordinary benefits".
I think a lot of the comments here show that there is a large number of people that are pissed off because they work for a company and feel devalued.
I can identify with this statement and Apple trying to reiterate their core values to new staff. Sure you may not hit the mark 100% of the time, but surely they would have trouble retaining staff if they are lying.
I also think that this whole "Profit Margin" bashing needs to stop. Yes they make large margins, no they don't profit share with most of their staff. It's the way almost every business works.
If you disagree then I encourage you to start your own company and give it a shot rather then shouting abuse from the sidelines.
Despite everyone's dislike of this, you have to think of this from the company's perspective. What's the cost of producing this? If they get even one sucker to buy into it, it'll have already paid for itself many times over.
[+] [-] josteink|14 years ago|reply
Back to real life: every company claims to be best, unique or something like that. Some hollow, BS claim to motivate their employees. But just because they print it on a poster doesn't make it any more real.
Apple is heartless corporation like all others. This can easily be seen in their profit-margins: They care about money more than anything else.
I don't see why Apple fanboys feels the need to make Apple anything more, you know, like a special corporation, which cares about them, personally. If you think that sounds obnoxious or facetious, I've seen people here on HN make those exact claims.
Anyway: It's a corporation. Making money. Often in ethically shady ways. Nothing more, nothing less. Like every other corporation.
[+] [-] SwellJoe|14 years ago|reply
And, there are corporations in our industry that are not "heartless...like all the others". If there weren't, we wouldn't have a higher standard to compare Apple to in order to see their many shortcomings; rarely are those better companies as successful as Apple (which is a great disappointment to me, as a believer in free markets), but many exist. There are, of course, many worse companies, as well. But, Apple certainly isn't a good one.
[+] [-] marcus|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vijayr|14 years ago|reply
"sacrifice your weekend for" - makes zero sense, for a corporation whose primary (only??) motive is to make money. Also notice the choice of words "sacrifice" - not "spend" or "use" etc. The first thought that comes to my head is, they are not gonna pay me for sacrificing my weekends.
I just wish companies stop glorifying extra/more/free work. There is nothing romantic/great about this - end of the day, all companies are same - they care about their profits more than anything else, they'd not hesitate to throw out a guy in a minute (even if he had worked for them for 30 years) if it improves their margins.
[+] [-] lionhearted|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tycho|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saturdaysaint|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] drx|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bonch|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] kamaal|14 years ago|reply
Sure there is, that is why we choose to do it for a price that makes our life rewarding and deserving of such work. Talking of work and no rewards and compensation is not very impressive these days.
>>The kind of work that has your fingerprints all over it.
Yes that is why commits to source code repos exists. So that users who make them are traceable. Nearly every Open source repository has a AUTHORS/CREDITS files these days.
>>The kind of work that you'd never compromise on. That you'd sacrifice a weekend for.
I would only sacrifice my time for some compensation in return.
>>You can do that kind of work at Apple. People don't come here to play it safe. They come here to swim in the deep end. They want their work to add upto something. Something big, something that couldn't happen else where.
They said the same thing to slaves who built the Pyramids, Taj Mahal and Colosseum of Rome. And they did build things far more majestic and time lasting than the iPhone, iPad, Mac or the iPod. I don't wish to die as a slave even if I'm building the Taj Mahal. Nobody cares, and its you who is having this horrible life sacrificing your time, energy and other things in life for somebody else.
This is hardly inspirational. This sort of inspiration evaporates in thin air after you receive your salary two months into your job.
[+] [-] ticks|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] archangel_one|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robbiemitchell|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] easp|14 years ago|reply
There are many many people who work in exploitive jobs, most don't have reasonable alternatives.
In silicon valley, there are likely many engineers who work at exploitive jobs. They likely have reasonable alternatives, but don't take them because they have hopes of a big payout.
Then you have Apple employees. They likely have reasonable alternatives to working at Apple, but they aren't their expecting a big jackpot, because Apple is an established public company. So why are they there? Most likely it's because the message of that card does speak to them. If they figure out later that it is BS, they are free to go. For all the secondhand stories I hear of how bad it is to work at Apple, I'm surprised by how few first hand stories I hear.
[+] [-] bonch|14 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] outside1234|14 years ago|reply
"There's work and then there's my life's work.
The kind of work that will make me millions. You'll work weekends while I'm at my 5000 sqft "green" house in Portola Valley or Tahoe on Friday through Monday. You will do that work here at Apple.
We don't want people to come here and play it safe. We want people to come here that want to drink the kool-aid. We want their work to add up to something for us. If it doesn't, prepare to be screamed at once a day or more.
I want your work to add up to something. Something big. Something that results in wealth for me.
Welcome to burnout. You'll only last 3 years and then I'll replace you with new kool-aid.
[+] [-] pm90|14 years ago|reply
"There are ancient cathedrals which, apart from their consecrated purpose, inspire solemnity and awe. Even the curious visitor speaks of serious things, with hushed voice, and as each whisper reverberates through the vaulted nave, the returning echo seems to bear a message of mystery. The labor of generations of architects and artisans has been forgotten, the scaffolding erected for their toil has long since been removed, their mistakes have been erased, or have become hidden by the dust of centuries. Seeing only the perfection of the completed whole, we are impressed as by some superhuman agency. But sometimes we enter such an edifice that is still partly under construction; then the sound of hammers, the reek of tobacco, the trivial jests bandied from workman to workman, enable us to realize that these great structures are but the result of giving to ordinary human effort a direction and purpose. Science has its cathedrals, built by the efforts of a few architects and of many workers." -Gilbet Newton Lewis
[+] [-] dvhh|14 years ago|reply
As much a I love my work, I won't love it more than my wife, or my future children.
[+] [-] davidw|14 years ago|reply
I mean, if you look at it from something of a Homo Economicus point of view, consider the pay rate a good developer gets, and that that money for the weekend is essentially getting donated to Apple Inc, a massively profitable corporation.
[+] [-] raverbashing|14 years ago|reply
Do Apple offer stock options? Bonus per project?
Other factors could be: what's the impact of having Apple in your CV? Getting to say you worked on project X ?(Apparently this is something Apple limits disclosure, still, if you're an cell phone engineer not a lot of projects you could work)
Sacrificing your life for a company's profit looks like the job is only a physical process of "turning a money machine".
And of course, I hate sacrificing weekends and holidays.
[+] [-] biot|14 years ago|reply
Or is it more about balance and avoiding extremes?
[+] [-] kompiebutut|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Drbble|14 years ago|reply
Steve Jobs clearly did, and wanted people with that level of commitment. Can't fault him for trying to find people willing to give him their lives.
[+] [-] hdeshev|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Swizec|14 years ago|reply
I'm asking because I'm looking at very likely being gobbled up by such a large corporation ...
[+] [-] nhangen|14 years ago|reply
Not everyone is going to be an entrepreneur, fewer of us will be successful entrepreneurs. If we are going to work for someone else, it's nice to be able to do something we can be proud of. I imagine that working for Apple makes that possible.
[+] [-] hsshah|14 years ago|reply
However, I worry about Apple lawyers tracking down the person who uploaded this and offer a cease and desist instead of new hire orientation!
[+] [-] jaimzob|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blinkingled|14 years ago|reply
Brad Fitzpatrick (memcached fame) for instance mentions this in the Android performance related video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v... - believes in open source, doesn't want Android to fail due to responsiveness issues - that's his motivation.
What might be the motivations of great people lately working for Apple - they can make a great product anywhere, why with Apple?
[+] [-] webwright|14 years ago|reply
How many software/hardware companies are making great products? I'm an Apple user (though I very much dislike the behavior of the company), but I'm hard-pressed to name any company building better products than Apple. Or even name many that are in the neighborhood.
[+] [-] moron|14 years ago|reply
I bet a lot of them would disagree with your premise. You can't just make a great product anywhere, a lot of things need to be in place for that to happen.
[+] [-] siculars|14 years ago|reply
Is that so? Ya, I don't think so. Show me the money.
[+] [-] Zr40|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] buster|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] theorique|14 years ago|reply
Not that I'm complaining, as I type this on my MacBook Pro, with my iPhone beside it and my iPad 3 and iPod Nano in the backpack on the floor.
Cult or not, they make high quality products at high prices.
I've drunk the Kool-Aid just like many of you.
[+] [-] thatjoshguy|14 years ago|reply
There's a difference between drinking the Kool-Aid and knowing why people drink the Kool-Aid
[+] [-] nollidge|14 years ago|reply
You want my weekends? Fuck you, pay me.
[+] [-] jopt|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lionelhutz1|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lionelhutz1|14 years ago|reply
One day you all will learn that there is no shortage of people who think they deserve the fruits of your labor, through no work of their own. They will not give you the option of supporting the needy voluntarily, through charity. They will seize your money, by force, by a willing government eager to buy their votes with the sweat of your hard work. Once you eek out a successful living where you actually pay real taxes, you will begin to grow frustrated with the lack of control that you will have with your own money. But even if you don't. Who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my money, which I work for, belongs to someone else? Its quite ironic and hypocritical to say that wanting to keep one's own money is greed, but wanting to take someone else's money by force is justice.
[+] [-] m0skit0|14 years ago|reply
[+] [-] djt|14 years ago|reply
I can identify with this statement and Apple trying to reiterate their core values to new staff. Sure you may not hit the mark 100% of the time, but surely they would have trouble retaining staff if they are lying.
I also think that this whole "Profit Margin" bashing needs to stop. Yes they make large margins, no they don't profit share with most of their staff. It's the way almost every business works. If you disagree then I encourage you to start your own company and give it a shot rather then shouting abuse from the sidelines.
[+] [-] jwingy|14 years ago|reply